I don't know what LOTR is but there is a big diff in fantasy from the Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe and The Golden Compass.

Satan as we know is the great imitator but with a twist and he shows his true colors here. He comes across as the angel of light but has no light in him.

There are many parallels to C.S. Lewis' classic in Golden Compass. We see Lyra instead of Lucy, we see talking animals, alernate worlds, a wardrobe, a final battle, witches but instead of witches being evil, they are on the side of good (sympathy for Satan perhaps?).

After you get pulled into the similarities if you're paying close attention you'll notice the contrasts between Pullman and Lewis. One example is this quote from one of the witches:

"There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did—not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling."

He constantly and without exception paints churches and Christians as wicked and as agents of oppression, torture and murder among other things.

And I fail to understand why "someone who does not have faith, and who's literary works don't condone religious teaching" leaves all the topics in the whole universe which are wide open to him and choose to write inaccurate things about things he doesnt believe in.

Why is he doing that?

Ran out of ideas? trying to discredit the topic he is writing about? Confuse kids?

There must be a reason why he chose that topic to write about. What is it?

Um . . .

Lord of the Rings. You know? Second-highest-grossing movie of all time, coming in a very close second to Titanic?

You don't get out much, do you, friend?

Uh oh...now I HAVE to see it. I hope it's good, because I want to ENJOY it. Nothing like watching sinful cinema.

~Zoo

duh! I had a duh moment. Thanks for setting me straight.

ThinkAloud said:

when kids grow up and be able to make up their own minds, they can read and watch whatever they choose. Till then, they should not be exposed to things that confuse them or give them the wrong impression.

End of quote

While I know there are those who will argue that children below the cutoff age will find their way into theaters, I believe that's an issue of parental responsibility, so it's a red herring. The movie is rated PG-13. My point is this: at age 13, wouldn't you want your kids to have started thinking for themselves and starting to draw some of their own conclusions about issues of significance like this? If you want them to come by their faith honestly and not just to spout out what they've been taught by their parents through rote memorization, I would think that you would welcome the chance to allow them to evaluate alternative viewpoints. Exposing children or young adults to new ideas is part of growing up, in no small measure whether their parents like it or not.



Just thought those following this thread might be interested in this WWW link

Thanks for the link. Pretty much what has been already stated here but I pulled this out from your link:


The Pullman series follows the release of the first movie based on Christian author C.S. Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia." Both feature epic battles, talking animals, polar bears and a wardrobe. But from there, the works diverge.

I found this interesting since I remember "The DaVinci Code" following "The Passion." This happens all the time and just an example of the spiritual battle that is being waged for our souls.

Exactly. If you shelter them forever and only indoctrinate your viewpoints into them, they become little robots. Also, in that case I think it leads to something like a cult. Learning how to think for yourself is important.

~Zoo

Do you REALLY think that the only way to teach children contradictory values is to INDOCTRINATE them in contradictory values, zoologist?

Faith is called that for a reason. Because it is what we genuinely BELIEVE. You can believe anything you want, but to challenge my right to raise my children in my faith by comparing biblical instruction to cultic leadership is a pretty low blow.

What would you suggest? softcore porn at 13 so my daughters know a few enticing positions for their boyfriends when they start dating? Forced daily recitation of the Qu'Ran so they don't fall into a "cult like" belief in the Bible? Experimentation with drugs so they'll have a better understanding of their negative effects as well as positive effects?

I have a RESPONSIBILITY to raise my children properly, zoologist. I accept they won't always make decisions that I will like, but I will not be browbeaten by you or anyone else to think I MUST teach them positions contradictory to my own or risk being branded a cult.

That was shameful and uncharacteristically intolerant of you, zoo!

Warreni posts:

What other way is there for kids to be given and taught their faith if not honestly by the care of parents?



What? Like all religions, including in this case atheism, are equal?

Zoo posts:

All this shows is that you're clueless on parenting...and that's understandable since you aren't one.

Parenting by its very nature is sheltering them and teaching them your viewpoints.

No, I'm not a parent, but if that's what you believe that parenting is, I'm afraid that's just your opinion.

My parents didn't attempt to indoctrinate me into a particular religious belief system and my parents allowed me the opportunity to grow and mature and explore for myself many different religious and philosophical traditions, and I would afford my own children the same opportunity.

Sorry, but your way is not the only way, and to imply that I would make a lousy parent simply because I presently have no children of my own is very ugly.

So, it's OK and acceptable to make a movie based on a book written by a man who hates God, though it's funny cause you cant hate something that you don't believe exist yet his books and movie say otherwise.

t age 13, wouldn't you want your kids to have started thinking for themselves and starting to draw some of their own conclusions about issues of significance like this?

Yea and while we're at it we can show them some porn, a few murder and gang movies, maybe some of those really nasty music videos that promote women as whores, we can also show them some of the back yard wrestling videos and to top it off we can find some videos online of women and children getting raped. Then we can let them think for themselves and let them start drawing their own conclusions about these significant issues.

Hell, we should just lower the smoking, drinking and driving ages and just let them experience life first hand, maybe that will straighten them out before they graduate from high school. Anyone have any more bright ideas?

Go here,

http://www.goldencompassmovie.com/

Dodge the satanic atheist,

Click on "The Alethiometer"

It has a view of the compass, the symbols, the dials, it demonstrates the whole working of the plot device.

"The problem with that is kids dont, yet, have the ability to understand what is a pure fantasy and what is based on reality."

You tell me if kids at age 10 and up, can't understand this as a fantasy plot element.

"http://www.greekgeek.de/golden-compass-poster-425.jpg"
http://www.aolcdn.com/moviefeatures/golden-compass-dakota-425
How about the movie poster? Fact or Fiction?

In one of these she's riding a polar bear, with armor on, near the edge of a snowy cliff. If that kid can't tell that as fantasy, probably shouldn't be crossing the street alone either. An 11 year old girl, riding a polar bear, on the edge of a cliff, in a suit of armor, in a snow storm, is what we call fantasy, at any age lol.

The idea that shying away kids from "influences" that aren't right for them might work in some respects, but what might also work, and better is allowing children to make their own decisions, and to have a discussion and dialogs about their choices. I'm not saying someone at 13 is prepared to make life decisions, I'm saying they are able to actively participate in their own destiny and understanding of the world. Certainly Catholic adults, are able to make a judgement on a fantasy movie without having to boycott.

WOW Evidently there is plenty of controversy on this work. Lots of citations about what the author has written in the past, in novella, not a shred of a clip from the movie, or the media in question. I call that bias. Indirect evidence supporting your claim that the author is atheist, a claim he himself makes, and one which guides his perspective, no doubt will have some impact on the movie itself, if you say so.

An observation I will make is that, atheistic and agnostic individuals seem to have a much greater respect, certainly more tolerance, for people's differences than the general lot of religious fantastics, maybe that is because they have no faith is mythology to defend or feel the need to defend. Believing in God is your choice. Believing in anything is your choice, but choosing to participate in a campaign to deny others the ability to view and take a message home from a creative work isn't a choice, I need you making for me. That's all I'm saying, that's the only point I wanted to make.

You may not think censorship can exist outside the government, but it can, and it does. In this case, if enough theaters don't vault over the razor slim profit margin that a movie, any movie, makes for them then they stop showing it, when it isn't displayed, people can't view it. If it performs poorly enough, it might not even be released on DVD or VHS. I'm not saying that is likely to happen on a $150 million project but what of the $500,000 or $1.5 million budget film, should it have themes this, C League things are anti-catholic.

Then you do get really effective censorship.

Boycotts are not education, you can have an education campaign, which doesn't call for a boycott, but educates Catholics on real anti-Catholic messages. I wouldn't have even made a point, except this flier ended up not in a church, or a church parking lot, but in my workplace. A public place, on the bulletin board. Free speech, sure but when boycotts permeate the secular world, then they have ought be accountable to the world to which they are delivering their message too.

If you need an example where a boycott, has destroyed a creative work, see here...

"n 1997, Donohue declared the ABC show Nothing Sacred as deeply offensive to Catholicism, although not as Anti-Catholic in the traditional sense.[4][5] Calling for a boycott, he stated that the show portrayed Catholics with a traditional view as cold or cruel while glorifying more the maverick, irreverent voices in the community. However, the show was defended by some Catholics and had been written with the consultation of Jesuits, from which it later won the Humanitas Prize. Many Catholics agreed with him that the show was hostile to the beliefs and values of the Catholic Church, and ABC cancelled Nothing Sacred (TV Series) after less than a season, reportedly for ratings difficulty. Defenders and critics think he may have played a significant role in the show's rapid demise as advertisers often become leery of shows deemed "controversial"

"Marilyn Manson then responded to Donohue's claim by saying, "I can't possibly be at war with Christ, because your religion killed him and what he stood for. But if you want to be at war with me, bring it on." [10] Donohue's response was as follows: "The Catholic League will not shy from criticizing Manson but it refuses to take the bait of this madman. The vile and illiterate response we got from his fans demonstrates what happens when people overdose on junk."

Maybe but he out played the C Leagure at their own game, media.

Some statements made by Their leader. Will A Donohue...

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, OK? And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth. It's about the Messiah."

"Hollywood has become an America-hating bastion that always portrays people in uniform in some sinister role"

If you all had read the article on the Catholic League, maybe I didn't put it up, allow me do to it now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_League_(U.S.)

You would read that this group is not super strongly aligned with the Catholic Church. though some are making the case, they speak for the church. That is not the case. The church has it's own mouthpiece, i.e. the pope, and the consortium of cardinals at the Vatican.

"Donohue and the Catholic League have been heavily criticized by some fellow Catholics, who have accused them of being overly sensitive in the identification of anti-Catholicism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Donohue

---

One last, point, on censorship. Boycotts do indeed lead to censorship. Just because the term censorship may have applied to certain governments in the past, it stretchs much further today.

"The call for a boycott has resulted in action by some Catholic groups in the US and Canada, and a school board in Ontario has ordered the source novel removed from its library shelves. Pullman has since said that the books do not have a religious agenda, saying of Donahue's call for a boycott, "Why don't we trust readers? Why don't we trust filmgoers? Oh, it causes me to shake my head with sorrow that such nitwits could be loose in the world."

Why don't we trust readers?

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WOW your HTML implementation using your own toolbar sucks JU

Dan Greene, your intolerance of my stance to not watch the movie without seeing it first is far more intolerant than I am of his ability to make the movie. He can make the movie, go ahead, I won't stop him, or do anything to keep you from watching it. But you don't even want to let me parent my own children based on my religious convictions. Yes, the Catholics and Christians are so much more intolerant than you are, Dan Greene.

Actually, I'm going to step in here, jythier. I haven't seen Dan once say he doesn't support a parent's right not to see the movie (although I have seen a few others lean in that direction). He's talking specifically about the organized boycott.

And frankly this is a position where I agree with Dan more than disagree (and Dan will readily attest to the fact that I don't mince words with him when I disagree). As a parent, I don't want some group of uptight citizens telling me what I can and cannot choose to show my children.

Honestly, I feel this film fills a particular niche, just not a niche I intend to be part of. Many atheist/agnostic parents I have met are less than enthused with the idea of so many of these books catering to a Christian world view, and I think they have as much right to have their children watch fantasy movies that don't feel the need to push a Christian agenda as I have to have my children watch movies that DO uphold our values and virtues.

No question about that. However, at 13 they are not mature enough to handle the big issues like religion and faith. We all know if they can handle relationships at this age it will be great achievemnt. Let's not fool ourselves, at 13 they are just begining to know what is what. they are starting to crawl in the world of ideas, lets wait till they are able to take their first step.

At what point they are able to handle heav stuff? It depends on each individual and their environment. Parents are the ones who can judge the proper time.

dAN gREENE POSTS:

In the final analysis, subtle as though it may be in a fantasy sort of way, the Golden Compass ends up pointing to atheism, Dan...

The movie is bait to sell Pullman's books which promote atheism and denigrates Christianity. Pullman's fantasies are about the death of God.

Couldn't the child that goes into the theater believing in GOd comes out with all kinds of doubts questioning their faith?

As a young girl I remember seeing Lassie get in trouble and crying so that my mother had to explain that Lassie was the star of the show and that she wouldn't die. Imagine a child seeing the depiction of killing God? That's Satanically cruel in my view.

As I said before, the movie is for no one.

Gideon,
This may be a fine point between one Christian to another...but I totally disagree with your premise that adults in this world have a 'right' to scandalize GOd's little children....and taking them to a movie that blasphemes Him fits the bill...

Read St.Matt. 18:6,10 "whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me, but whoever casues one of these little ones who believes in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. See to it that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father who is in Heaven."

"Dan Greene, your intolerance of my stance to not watch the movie without seeing it first is far more intolerant than I am of his ability to make the movie. He can make the movie, go ahead, I won't stop him, or do anything to keep you from watching it. But you don't even want to let me parent my own children based on my religious convictions. Yes, the Catholics and Christians are so much more intolerant than you are, Dan Greene."

Parent your kids how you wish, but don't support boycotts, on media. Turn the dial, or turn the media off if it is not suitable for kids, or in line with your religion.

"At what point they are able to handle heav stuff? It depends on each individual and their environment. Parents are the ones who can judge the proper time."

Agree, so why is a boycott suitable for all? Answer: It isn't, but all are affected when some groups call for a boycott.

"In the final analysis, subtle as though it may be in a fantasy sort of way, the Golden Compass ends up pointing to atheism, Dan..."

Really? Back that up with some basis by which you conclude that as fact.

"Couldn't the child that goes into the theater believing in GOd comes out with all kinds of doubts questioning their faith?"

I guess if you or I had seen the movie, we could count the number of times the word God appears, but since it is being BOYCOTTED! You won't know if it is or is not what the censorship folks say it is.

The movie is a fantasy movie, it makes no bones about being fact, or "the way" or truth. Only what you read into it. Does StarWars, a fantasy science fiction film, show you a stuggle between good and evil? Is God mentioned in it? No, use the force luke, I guess that makes Lucas an atheist and his movie, satanic.

Look folks, you don't seem to want to think for yourselves here, you just seem happy to let the censors throw a smoke screen and not even call it what it is.

President GWB did a pretty good job on the Iraq war and look where that little smoke screen got us.

You are all focusing on the content of the movie, a fantasy movie at that, over and above the fact that it is being censored, I guess in my world, the freedom of expression and living in a secular country is more important to me, as an atheist/agnostic/Catholic, than it is to have an occasional slip of faith here and there.

I would also prefer to live in a country where you can practice your religion and I can practice mine, not like areas of the world where you have a choice between death or the religion that is state sponsored.

My point is, if you start giving into the censorship influences, on a fantasy movie, which has no good basis, to be censored, and not even by official Catholic representation, if we are so easily suseptable to that, than maybe we don't deserve the freedom which we currently have.

Lula what disturbs me is how you keep saying this film is "for no one"...how DARE you presume to tell me what I can or cannot watch or what is or isn't appropriate for MY children?

Your values, tastes, interests, etc. aren't my values, tastes, and interests.

What if I DID want to find a decent children's movie with an agnostic or atheist slant? (In all honesty I don't care one way or the other...I don't have a problem with my children being exposed to Christianity) If this movie fits that bill and that were my goal, then how dare you tell me this movie is not for me or my children?

MYOB. Not everyone is just like you and not everyone wants the Catholic Church making their entertainment choices for them.

The way I look at a boycott (and I may be wrong) is it's not so much as a "demand" but a suggestion. In other words I've heard diff evangelical groups come out and boycott diff companies for their support for non-Christian causes or usually for their blatant anti-Christian bias.

I don't see the Catholic church, in this case, excommunicating any who go to this movie. Right Lula? There is no demand here but just a warning and this is the vehicle for it.

This is nothing more than a group of Christians (in this case) banding together to make the boycotted company understand our position; the reason why we will not see the movie.

In just about every case, where I've heard of a boycott being put in place, much is done first by the ones calling for the boycott to correspond with the other side to come to some sort of compromise.

I remember, for instance, there was (I'm not sure if it was called a boycott) a call for Christians not to watch the program "Will & Grace" because of their anti-Christian bias and blatant support of homosexuality as a viable lifestyle.

Correspondence flew between I think AFA, CitizenLink, and FOF and the producers of the show. The Show was asked by these family watchdog groups to basically tone down the anti-Christian speak. A very stong hate filled letter went out promising more to come. I remember myself being shocked at the response coming back from the producer of the show. I, willingly, after hearing this, boycotted the show immediately. I had watched it on occasion and when all this commotion was going on started really listening to the language of the program, and sure enough, there was pure hate spewing forth for anything Christian or what a Christian would hold dear. The family watchdog groups were right on in my estimation.

Did I have to boycott this show? No. Was it being demanded? No. Was I glad they brought this to my attention? Yes. It was like they shook me awake and let me know what was going on. We, in effect, censored it ourselves by just choosing to push the button on the remote.

We all have a choice, to watch or not to watch. I will choose NOT to watch the Golden Compass but I would not hate or hold anything against one who chooses to go and see this movie for themselves.

While I respect their decision to watch this movie, I don't have to agree with it. I would hope they would have the same response for my desire to NOT watch this movie.

Woah, woah...I think you took that a little too far. I did not mean it like that.

Teaching and censorship is fine...to a point. There's parenting and then there's going overboard. I was attacking the latter. Instilling beliefs and values into your kids is what parenting about...but vehemently denying them any interaction or consideration towards other viewpoints is, in my opinion, wrong.

What I was refering to amounts to brainwashing which is significantly different than instruction. Teach kids beliefs, values, faith, morals, stuff like that. I have no issues with that. When they grow to a certain age...13/14 and the like, I feel that they're old enough to be exposed to different things and hopefully be solid enough to retain what they're taught instead of being knocked from their foundation from a simple fantasy movie.

In essence, I'm actually having faith in the fact that these kids have strong religious beliefs and can handle the satanic polar bears or whatever the hell is supposed to be evil about this movie.

~Zoo

It's not so much what's IN the movie Zoo. It's the spirit BEHIND it that bothers us.