I've read all three of the books in this series. The first takes place entirely in an alternate universe in which the Church is extremely powerful. It is also made up of several different departments that have differing motivations. One department in particular is prominent in this book. They commit a bunch of terrible acts.

I read this when I was in 5th grade. The obvious anti-Christian views did nothing to affect my faith. The next two contained more anti-Christian sentiment that could only have been labeled as blatant. I pretty much ignored this and just read what was to me a very good story. I think the author's obvious distaste for Christianity actually hurt the narrative towards the end, but I think the first two books are just fantastic stories.

These books (and probably the movie) contain no great arguments against Christianity. No child old enough to read this book is going to be influenced in a way that could not easily be combated by a 15 min talk from the parents.

Besides, from everything I've read, any mentions of the Church being behind the atrocious events in the story have been removed from the movie, so there's really nothing to be scared of. I'm personally really looking forward to it.

Wow, someone who's actually read them.

A first for this discussion!

The good guys may win, yes, but the Catholic church is presented as the bad guys. And maybe they are in this fantasy realm. But why does the Catholic church even exist in this fantasy realm?

"What if I DID want to find a decent children's movie with an agnostic or atheist slant?"

There is no such thing. There is no middle ground. There is only, right and wrong to Catholics.

"It is no simple fantasy. It is about evil being presented in an enticing and glamorous way. As the first teachers and protectors, parents would not allow their children to be desensitized to evil so that it becomes commonplace and they no longer recognize it as dangerous and seek to avoid it. It is the same as saying that parents would not let their children drink poison. Tell your children that this movie is definitely poison for the soul. In the Our Father, Jesus taught us clearly to pray, deliver us from evil. Jesus does not want us to toy with evil even when it looks fascinating."

So now Jesus is saying we shouldn't attend this movie? A movie nobody has seen yet, is automatically poison because an atheist created it. I think the fantasy here is that the C league and any church that participates in a boycott of a fantasy movie, on the baseless accusations of Will Donahue is legitimate when they say they are acting in the best interests of family.

Yeah, desensitized by evil, like when the pope during the Nazi era, assisted Adolf Hitler to power right? Cause they were looking out for the family and children then.

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"I've read all three of the books in this series. The first takes place entirely in an alternate universe in which the Church is extremely powerful. It is also made up of several different departments that have differing motivations. One department in particular is prominent in this book. They commit a bunch of terrible acts.

I read this when I was in 5th grade. The obvious anti-Christian views did nothing to affect my faith. The next two contained more anti-Christian sentiment that could only have been labeled as blatant. I pretty much ignored this and just read what was to me a very good story. I think the author's obvious distaste for Christianity actually hurt the narrative towards the end, but I think the first two books are just fantastic stories.

These books (and probably the movie) contain no great arguments against Christianity. No child old enough to read this book is going to be influenced in a way that could not easily be combated by a 15 min talk from the parents.

Besides, from everything I've read, any mentions of the Church being behind the atrocious events in the story have been removed from the movie, so there's really nothing to be scared of. I'm personally really looking forward to it."

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Thank you for making a potent contribution, even if opinionated, it is at least relevant and important, to this discussion.

"The good guys may win, yes, but the Catholic church is presented as the bad guys. And maybe they are in this fantasy realm. But why does the Catholic church even exist in this fantasy realm?"

The point is you as an interpreter of the story, insert them. There is no mention of Catholics, Christians, Jews, Islam, Buddhists, only of the Magistrium or some such. Which represent organized religion in general, not necessarily Christianity or Catholicism, it is only Will Donahue who is leading the charge at the C league to boycott the movie. If you read the wiki on the C league and the controversy, you will see other religions are taking a "wait and see" approach. You know, one of a logical approach, not of a fanatical or "crusade" type enterprise.

Just because you disagree with a theme of the movie, doesn't mean you need to boycott it, you could indeed use it as a tool to foster debate, and bible study, but no, the C league is interested only in popularizing itself and bringing itself more power.

Maybe the Catholic league thinks it's talking about Catholics because they fit the description?

Missionaries probably. Catholics spread like the plague.

~Zoo

So why isn't the LDS church more popular?

So here we are, the folks have come to label the movie, having not seen it, evil, satanic, anti-Catholic, bad for families, blasphemous, garbage, a piper of atheism. All because the author is an atheist and the work doesn't fully support the Catholic church.

"Are you holding up atheism over belief in God? You tell me to prove the existence of God, yet when do you give equal challenge to the Pullmans of this world and require them to prove there is no God as this movie suggests (to little kids no less)?"

Atheism, isn't just the opposite of organized religion, not specifically Catholic faith, it's anti existence of God. Catholicism is fundamentally grounded in a human belief that God exists, sent his son to die on the cross to save us from sining ourselves.

Neither concept, God exists, God does not exist, is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, correct? Therefore I give each concept and insight equal weight. What I find unfortunate is that though I respect religion, and the assertion that God exists, those who believe in God, do not respect those who do not, for their own reasons. Even if the author's attempt was to make a persuasive case solely against Christianity, which he is not, he would every right to do so.

I believe his intention with "The Golden Compass" is to create a good story and fantasy film flick. If the books are the root of the evil at hand, why does the C league not call for a boycott of the books as well, and of the author, because then they expose themselves as being phony.

I tell you to prove the existence of God, because as of yet I have seen no proof in the scientific sense of God's existence. I have seen, every reason known to man to believe in the concept, the religion, the struggle, but absent proof, it would appear to be entirely man made. Just like the concept of "story" throughout history, relaying information from one person to another.

"God is Truth...and atheists such as Pullman deny God so how can they have truth?"

God is your truth, but you do not speak for the entire universe, I'm sorry to inform you, there are those who believe in a higher power, but not a God, there are those who believe we were brought here from another planet a long time ago, and there are those who believe we came from algae and lower level life forms, in addition to those who believe there is no God. You cannot enter and leave each debate or discussion applying your values to everybody else. That isn't fair in a secular society. You have the right to hold your values, and share them, but you have no right to expect others to conform to them. You cannot also deny someone else's right to share their values, even if they are universally opposite to your own, such as Pullman's.

If you do, believe that is it acceptable to deny them their rights, you must be willing to give up your own, when you are out numbered or over powered by whatever belief dominates the world in the future. How do you like them apples? Not very appealing is it? That is why you can't go around censoring people who had ideas which aren't exactly like your own.

"Look around. The stamp of God's handiwork is so clearly impressed upon creation and above all, upon man, that all inherently believe there is some Being out there who is greater than them."

I don't discount that, but the same can be said for Zeus, and nobody would be getting into a tussel if I told you Zeus was bullshit, because everybody believes Zeus is MYTHOLOGY. I advise you to look around, and realize not everybody believes in creation, given the lack of evidence to that effect. I apologize if that offends, but if your faith means enough to you, you'll be able to move beyond that.

"Oops. My brain saw "Lulupilgrim," not "Lulapilgrim." Apologies for the nomenclatural gaffe."

I remember calling Lulu lil pilgrim a time before, making a similar mistake

"Christian parents we should just sit there and take this is just as ridiculous and not what God would call us to do. He calls for us to stand up and take a stand against such things."

You should address it with your children, and discuss it at bible study, and let your children have some input on the subject. Something I am quiet sure the C league never did, because if they knew the first thing about teenagers, they would know telling kids not to do drugs, not to have sex, not to smoke, not to look at graphic photos of dead people on the internet, not to go speeding, no to be driving drunk, and not to see the Golden Compass, is exactly the wrong approach for the "indestructible" teenager mentality.

The way you get teenagers to comply is by getting them to think, think and talk about consequences, engaging them in discussions. Not sheltering them from what you think they don't know, leaving it up to their friends to influence them, because you "just say no". The C league didn't get this right, nor would I expect the church to understand considering the other bone headed and ridiculous mistakes they have made in the past, in their own "sheltered judgment mentality." The C League's interest is not in safeguarding families and teenagers, it's in bring in more and more donations, memberships, looking like the force that is necessary to stand up against big bad Hollywood.

I believe they have a pope, bishops and cardinals for all that. Those are the leaders who are supposed to be taking the stands for what is right. Frankly, I think they are smart enough to realize that this isn't a battle that needs to be fought, after all it is a fantasy movie.

I'm pretty sure commandment #1 takes care of the fantasy aspect of the movie for Catholics who do dare to see the movie, and remember...

"I am God, no Gods before me, you are not God."

http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=354

http://www.catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2007&month=October&read=2322

"Copies are currently available of the electronic edition (the booklet has sold old). To order, use our online form or call 212-371-3191. The cost is $5."

They are charging you $5 to look at a webpage. Thats total bullshit, and Catholics are eating right out of this guys hands.

No, ladies and gentlemen, you won't find it sold in stores, if you order right now, I'll let you and a friend look at the webpage for this low price of $5, two for the price of one. How can that be beat? Let me get Billy Mays from OXY CLEAN in on this one, maybe he can get you $10 for 3 web page hits Mr.Donahue.

Wake up folks, this guy is playing you for suckers.

Don't believe me... Here's your link for a $5 pdf file.

https://secure.catholic.org/cl/store/home.php

Sorry about the split pages, I couldn't get JU to let me edit, big surprise right?

Here's some more stuff you can buy, if you feel the need to start paying a guy to sit in a chair and shout at you about evil atheistic ideas, you know beyond membership dues, and your collection pot donation.

https://secure.catholic.org/cl/store/home.php?cat=253

"Were going to win on this one" Is that the goal, not to protect families or children, but to win? Thanks Mr.Donahue, you have a courageous amount of optimism, sort of like President Bush before marching into Iraq in 2003. But in both your cases I guess the truth will set you free.

In today's local paper there was a review of this movie Front and Center and I thought it was interesting considering the conversation here.

It was an AP article by Christy Lemire. The title of the review is "A Golden Coldness." Very interesting choice of words I thought.

In the article she states:

"Nicole Kidman's presence in the elaborate fantasy flick "The Golden Compass" is emblematic of the movie itself; aesthetically lush but ultimately cold to the touch.

This adaptation of the first novel in British writer Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy has some fanciful moments but never achieves the sense of awe-inspiring wonder of the "Lord of the Rings" films, to which comparisons will be inevitable. It also probably is too scary for a lot of kids, with it themes of totalitarianism and mind control; adults, meanwhile may find it hard to take seriously despite how seriously it takes itself."

She goes on to write about the plot line describing in pretty good detail the just of the movie saying the whole thing is a it of a drag even given the energy displayed by newcomer Dakota Richards who plays orphan Lyra.

Before you think I'm giving you a Christian's view of this movie (I've already done that) this reviewer goes on to say:

"Oh yes, and about that tizzy that Pullman's writings are anti-Christian and that "The Golden Compass" foists atheism on malleable, unsuspecting children-any reference to religion is totally vague and up for interpretation. The evil body trying to manipulate young minds is not any specific church but rather the broadly imposing Magesterium.

Tickle me Elmo is more subversive."

And there ya go.

~Zoo

When the polar bear dies off, we can pretend that all polar bears wore armor and teach about the Great Polar War of 2007...

Nobody thinks its a crock, to be charging Catholics $5 to look at a webpage, I mean if you end up printing off a copy from your home printer, it'll cost you at least the paper and ink it is printed with. This guy is in the business to make money and accumulate power, in order to make more money, not save kids from the devil lol.

Good discussion. I'm glad we got to the bottom line on this all. Roger Ebert is giving the movie thumbs up and he is usually right on movies.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071206/REVIEWS/712060302

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http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/religious-movies/2
"When pressed, Pullman grants that he’s not really trying to kill God, but rather the outdated idea of God as an old guy with a beard in the sky. In his novels, he replaces the idea of God with “Dust,” made up of invisible particles that begin to cluster around people when they hit puberty."

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That would be annoying as hell. Dusty puberty? Who needs that?
~Zoo

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

By the way, I'm curious. There have been many "Jesus movies" over the years. Does anyone bitch about those? Like is there a "League of Atheists" that lives in a dark and scary swamp somewhere passing judgement and crying for boycotts about Jesus appearing in movies?

~Zoo

Well Zoo....I've got some homework for you.

Check and see how many markets are grabbing a hold of "The Golden Compass" and compare with the markets that are showing the inspirational movie, also coming out about the same time, called "Bella." Have you even heard of "Bella?"

Now when you're done with that. Go and check the markets for "The DaVinci Code" and compare to "The Passion of the Christ"

It's not unusual for Christian or Inspirational Movies to not get the showings that the more secular movies get. Actually "The Passion of the Christ" did much better than "The DaVinci Code" despite all the hype.

That's because "The DaVinci Code" was a crappy movie. (And a crappy book, for that matter, not due to the subject matter, but due to its lack of character development and reliance on contrivance to move the plot along . . .)

And, after reading five different reviews of "The Golden Compass", I don't think you need worry. Sounds like a total snoozer.



PS "Inspirational" movies are usually boring. That's why they don't do as well. I actually went into, for example, "Left Behind" with relatively high expectations.

Fell asleep. And I don't fall asleep during hardly any movie.

Give the public an INTERESTING and inspirational movie, and they're all over it.

Too bad they rarely do, huh?

Just looked it up...and apparently it's some boring crap about a pregnant Mexican waitress. I'd rather see fighting polar bears than that any day of the week.

As SanCho said:


My question was, "Why isn't there an atheist league out there urging people to boycott Jesus flicks?" As far as I'm concerned religious movies and nonreligious movies have the same right to be shown...all I care about is if they're entertaining.

~Zoo

"Check and see how many markets are grabbing a hold of "The Golden Compass" and compare with the markets that are showing the inspirational movie, also coming out about the same time, called "Bella." Have you even heard of "Bella?"

Golden Compass had a production budget of $150 million, whereas Bella, had a production budget of $4 million dollars. That doesn't say anything about the content of either movie, only that in the marketplace a lot more people have to see Golden Compass to recoup the money invested to create it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_(film)

"Just looked it up...and apparently it's some boring crap about a pregnant Mexican waitress. I'd rather see fighting polar bears than that any day of the week."

Movies do best, when they pull you away from real life, I don't know much about pregnant waitresses but I can take a stab at the idea that a polar bear wearing armor is probably more fantastic than a pregnant waitress. I'd guess a pregnant waitress is closer to reality than polar bears wearing armor too. LOL.

"Why isn't there an atheist league out there urging people to boycott Jesus flicks?"

What would be the point? Atheists don't feel the need to come under attack for not having a "faith". I think most Catholics and other religious folks, don't feel the need to defend against fantasy movies. It is only the extremists in societies, C league, Al Qaeda, the Islmaic jihad, peoples and nations punishing or attempting to punish others for expressing an idea.

In the Islamic world naming a teddy bear the wrong name, gets you caned, deported, possibly killed, in the Catholic world, expressing the idea that organized religion is B.S. or fake or possibly wrong, gets you attacked and boycotted in the media.

Luckily we've moved passed the burning at the stake phase.

~Zoo

For now lol.

Well, when push comes to shove, dan, and the next time we have a knock down drag out, I want it remembered for the record that I DO have your back when I agree with you...lol!