Mel Gibson got quite the roasting for producing Passion of the Christ.

Dan Greene:





Dan,
Calling the Catholic League extremists..as Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihadists, c'mon? And the Catholic League has attacked no one...

But apparently it's OK for Pullman to attack God and denigrate Christianity...to kids through a fantasy movie?

And please, all the C. League has done is simply warned of the nature of Pullman's ideas and of his own stated agenda...it's a free market of ideas...Pullman's pushing his own and the Catholic League is countering them.

Probably because of his vile hatred for Jews. Also the fact that they beat the hell out of a guy for quite sometime. Torture! For Jesus.

~Zoo

because they are kind of busy protesting things like the Pledge, Separation of Church and State and the 10 Commandments printed in Public buildings etc. Ever hear of Michael Newdow or Madelyn Murry O'Hair?

I agree with you actually Zoo. I also believe these movies have a right to be shown. But the religious leaders, who are supposed to be shepherding their flocks also have a right to warn their flock against these movies they deem harmful. They shouldn't be made out to be some hate monger or ignorant in doing so.

I have a right to say..."as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" and one way to do this is to not spend our money on things that promote evil or denouce good.



exactly.



Yes, that's basically what I said in #114 by quoting a non biased review there.

I suppose a warning wouldn't bother me at all. I just think a boycott is blowing it out of proportion.

As an aside, I really hate the sheep comparison. Sheep are stupid and die if left alone in the wild. I prefer to be a goat- they know how to survive.

~Zoo

i went and saw this movie on Friday.


there is nothing in this movie to suggest lack of a god. in fact i got a sort of religious feeling from this movie.

the girl in the movie turns out to be the Saviour of her planet. and it is fantasy.


i would recommend that parents go and see the movie if they are scared of the content(which is a good idea for any pg rated movie). i would also recommend everyone without kids go and see this movie it is very good.

Ever read Terry Pratchett? I'm guessing yes, but I suppose I could be wrong. He gives a great analogy in his book 'Small Gods', where he explains the origins of religion based on what flock the shepherd happens to be herding.

There's a great line there, something along the lines of "Sheep are obedient and servile; they have to be driven. Goats are independent; they have to be led."

You really have to wonder what kind of religion Christianity and others would have been if they were founded by goatherds rather than shepherds (speaking metaphorically of course).

As for the movie, I think Oscar Wilde said it all:

"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book (movie). Books (movies) are well written, or badly written. That is all."

So long as it's good, who cares if it makes people question God? If a god is to have any meaning in anyone's life then it must be able to survive a little questioning.

PS: Danny, that was rational and reasonable advice. I'm surprised, but impressed nonetheless.

"Well, when push comes to shove, dan, and the next time we have a knock down drag out, I want it remembered for the record that I DO have your back when I agree with you...lol!"

I would rather you be my friend, I am totally willing and able to have a discussion or debate without "the winning or losing" I do enough winning and losing outside of JU, in life, to more then make up for a need to feel like I went rounds with someone. (Unforunately that's not true for all who comment here, not naming names ) I do appreciate you looking to connect with others when you have disagreed in the past.

This issue here is a good example of many of the issues that exist about religion, it is much less about the actual facts, but of the perception of fact, and of faith, and the perception of faith. Having no belief in God, and taking a position of faith in that, is much more dangerous and isolating than taking the position in the middle of the pack blindly believing, in the absences of fact. What is more and more apparent about religions when people discuss them, is that there a trend for people to need to be right or wrong rather than just "I don't know". It is quiet clear if we did really know, what we say is right or wrong, rather than what we say "I don't know" to, there would be much more acceptance of differing opinions.

A lot of people believed the world was flat, and that sailing over the edge, would be letting your ship, fall over the edge, just like a pencil off the edge of a table. Everybody thought Columbus was crazy sailing over the edge to find a route to the new world. Nobody thought the edge existed because of scientific proof, how could they, there was none, yet, it was a common belief, just as the Earth was commonly believed to be the center of the universe.

We know today, and people knew, whether or not they believed it or understood it, that there was indeed a way to go around the world, using the opposite direction to reach next land. Today, we have GPS satellites in orbit, which further prove, perhaps beyond a reasonable doubt that the Earth is indeed round and not flat. I have no interest in reproving how the world is round rather than flat, but I would entertain someone's right and perspective, should they choose to find a reason to believe it was flat.

Pullman in this case, is not really the Columbus of our time, he is not forcing a worldwide debate on organized religion. The Catholic church is not forcing the debate. A middle aged, media unsavvy, man who looks dangerously like Karl Rove, is forcing it from a chair in an office shouting into a webcam, for a poorly edited presentation on why they are "going to win" against an idea, which is different than their own. They are not going to work to discuss it, or debate it, or engage it, but to boycott it and therefore censor it and suppress it.

It is very simple folks.

"Dan,
Calling the Catholic League extremists..as Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihadists, c'mon? And the Catholic League has attacked no one.. But apparently it's OK for Pullman to attack God and denigrate Christianity...to kids through a fantasy movie? "

Watch the video clip I posted, it is an attack on free speech by the C league. Pullman, has every "inalienable right given to him by their creator" (I'm not sure what the British tag line is for Declaration of Independence) to say whatever he wishes, In what way does the movie Golden Compass denigrate Christianity specifically? There is no mention of the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns, the sex scandal, no mention of Catholics, Chuch officials, none of that, if you will concede that is it merely against organized religion in general, then I'll point out, that none of the other organized religions, have made statements in support of boycotting the event. I would expect you to agree, that the C league, who does not speak for the Church, the pope does, would be acting in an oversensitive and out of bounds manner.

If all fantasies that don't support Christianity are off limits, where was the call for a boycott, of the Home Alone movies, or Tim Allen's Santa Clause debacles, or the concept of "Santa Clause". I mean come on, you cannot have it both ways. The creator has atheists views, again I say so what?

"And please, all the C. League has done is simply warned of the nature of Pullman's ideas and of his own stated agenda...it's a free market of ideas...Pullman's pushing his own and the Catholic League is countering them."

The C league is calling for a boycott, and selling a webpage/pdf file to make money. If their only goal was to spread information they'd open up a wiki page and be done, but that's incorrect. It is a not a free market, when they charge you for access to information and then urge a censorship action. Of which has succeeded in a library already. Please read my posts before you comment. Thanks.

Actually, no...and I had no idea that quote existed. I was just pulling stuff together I saw at one point and time(probably on the discovery channel). Might give it a read though.

~Zoo

On a non faith point.....I read the plot is a bit hard to follow...and the characters are introduced but not truly developed in this one (like its the corner stone for the movies to follow)....has anyone seen it? Any comments about these areas?

Dan Greene Posts:

Dan,
Please get your facts straight before launching charges. The Catholic League warned Catholics across the country through email to bishops and through Church bulletin inserts of the dangers of this movie long before they produced this helpful booklet which people of all religious stripes are free to purchase or not.



KFC posts:


Excellent point.

Besides, calling a boycott of Christian films is small fish to atheists. They are busily working in tandem in furthering their agenda of irradicating all semblances of Christianity from the public, be it the workplace, in traditions, schools, our coinage and they are agitating that all of the crosses be removed from Arlington Cemetary. It started full force in 1963, with taking a prayer out of school and now again, another attempt to remove God from the Pledge is before the courts.


Atheists are fully behind Pullman. Dan, you say as much in your main article quote.



Americans are allowing themselves to be as frogs slowly boiled in water when it comes to following these English atheists.

lula posts:


Dan Greene posts:

The movie Golden Compass is based upon 3 books written by Pullman, a self described atheist who said in interviews, "My books are about killing God" and that he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief" and "I am all for the death of God."

Atheists denigrate Christianity by attacking Christian religious beliefs. Pullman's fiction presents evil as good and good as evil. He portrays the evil of darkness, demonic forces that battle God and ultimately kill Him. The film ultimately invites us to join forces against God.

Chronicles of Narnia are fantasy that represent the battle between God and His followers and Satan and his devils. In Lord of the Rings, Tolkien shows the power of God and readers join Him while Pullman promotes the lie that evil can ultimately defeat God. Christians know that Christ death has already won the ultimate victory.

Dan,

why hasn't Pullman exercised his inalienable right to write a book denigrating Allah (Islam) and publically denunciate Mohammed and have that made into a children's fantasy movie. You think a few Catholics calling for a simple boycott is bad....what would the reaction to that be?

"Please get your facts straight before launching charges. The Catholic League warned Catholics across the country through email to bishops and through Church bulletin inserts of the dangers of this movie long before they produced this helpful booklet which people of all religious stripes are free to purchase or not."

People on this forum have said that this is the Church doing this. The Catholic church has a mouth piece for education, it's called the pope. This is another organization, the Catholic League, which is not a sub organization of the churuch, which is running this media campaign. My question with all the mis information, was what is the true motive of this organization.

If it is purely educational, there are other ways, more effective and more massive ways to reach people, i.e. creating a wiki page. In this case, this organization has chosen to compile a document, and charge people for it, an electronic version of the document, which is essentially free information, they are asking money for. So this is not a purely educational enterprise, it's a for profit money making venture, just like the C league is in general. What other company or organization, charges you for an electronic flyer, access to an html webpage, or pdf file?

"Church bulletin inserts of the dangers of this movie long before they produced this helpful booklet which people of all religious stripes are free to purchase or not." Really, signed by the pope, or passed around by the religious community without regard to actually researching who is advancing the cause?

The question was...
"In what way does the movie Golden Compass denigrate Christianity specifically?"
Your response was...
"The movie Golden Compass is based upon 3 books written by Pullman, a self described atheist who said in interviews, "My books are about killing God" and that he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief" and "I am all for the death of God."

Being based off anything doesn't mean jack. Do we judge a work of literature or film by the content of that literature of film, or upon the work on which it is based, or by who has written it. If you believe it's fair game to be judging works by the people that create it, than that is unfair, and really biased.

I would only expect a fanatic Catholic to make that kind of of statement.

"Chronicles of Narnia are fantasy that represent the battle between God and His followers and Satan and his devils. In Lord of the Rings, Tolkien shows the power of God and readers join Him while Pullman promotes the lie that evil can ultimately defeat God. Christians know that Christ death has already won the ultimate victory."

They know it, like everybody knew the world was flat, however they cannot prove it, just as they cannot prove the world was flat. Today it is highly provable that the world is round. Look towards the future when you are finished putting your faith in the past, imagine where the world will be, when the science we use for convenience today, becomes the predominate faith of the future.

Movies like the "5th element", which had an anti religious theme, with a comparable budget and bigger stars didn't draw a boycott by the C league. Why not? Because their creator wasn't atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element

"Dan, why hasn't Pullman exercised his inalienable right to write a book denigrating Allah (Islam) and publically denunciate Mohammed and have that made into a children's fantasy movie."

I hate to get personal, but pull your head out of your ass and start reading what I have written before you start making statements that clearly don't capture my viewpoint. I have stated, as has Pullman, that his works don't target any religion specifically, but it is the nuts at the C league who have adapted their perspective on a movie based on a book, to mean the Catholic church. The stories, are anti-organized religion, not anti-Catholic. So you tell ask me, why does he not denigrate other religions when indeed he has done so as much as you claim he has done to the Catholic Church.

Maybe it is you who needs to do a little more research, why do I say that, it would appear most Catholics are fully willing and able to let others do their thinking for them. Making prejudicial judgments about media without actually viewing the media or learning about them from independent sources.

Pullman has a message in the movie which isn't necessarily bad, it is don't put your faith entirely into an organized religion that is can be corrupted by evil men or women. The Magistrium was corrupt, just like certain religions have been corrupted. If you need me to point to a Catholic failure in th past, how about the ongoing and endless SEX SCANDAL, and the millions that the church is paying out daily for the sins of their empire?

Tell me that shifting sex offenders from community to community, is moral, divinely guided, or even ethical. Certainly an organization that hasn't even to this day purged itself of this kind of thing, should be careful about throwing stones at glass houses, when they themselves live in on. Oh that's right, Jesus had a parable for this didn't he?

"He who has not sinned, shall cast the first stone."

excuse me


when did love become anti-god.


but then i forget some many people never figured out what the 5th element was.


for those of you who didn't figure it out. the fifth element was love.


and sense god is love.

Dan,

By your "I hate to get personal" paragraph, you have crossed the line of civil discourse with me. I wonder if it is possible for you to carry on a discussion and not resort to becoming insulting crass.

Good bye, Dan.

Just throwing in my two cents here...

I saw the movie this weekend with some friends, completely oblivious to the whole "evil ulterior atheist motive", which I found out about the following day much to my surprise! Truth be told I really enjoyed the movie. If the books are heavily anti-religion then it didn't spill over into the movie. If there was anything that the movie conveyed it's that people should think for themselves and not buy into groupthink. Regardless of your religious or political beliefs, I think this is an entirely valid message. It also attacked the notion of blind faith, and large organizations over-stepping their bounds. Both of these things various churches (and forms of government) have been guilty of promoting many times down through the ages. Notice that I didn't say it attacked the concept of faith itself, but one of it's false flavours. Blind faith is the worst kind of faith, because in my opinion it is entirely false and requires no decision on the part of the believer, so we can definitely do away with that!

Hallelujah!

~Zoo

I'm coming in late to this too.....I have not seen the movie and probably will not, but I have read the books. I was very excited about the movie when I saw the trailer earlier this summer and immediately went out to get the first book. It was a great story with very little religious overtones to it, unless you already knew where to look and I had no idea at the time. I proceeded to go back to the store and get the rest of the trilogy and was disappointed with them. The story was okay as far as actual fantasy went, but the author's bitterness and anger was obvious, as well as his blatant anti-Christian, anti-religion stance in general. I was relatively certain of this part-way through the second book but I didn't want to be one of those people who condemned the books without having read them, so I finished all three!

Would I encourage anyone to see the movie or read the books? NO. Would I ever dream of telling someone not to? NO. In fact, my cousin's 12 yr old son has asked her about reading them because he wants to decide for himself, so I am sending them to him for Christmas. Both of us come from conservative Christian backgrounds and have strong personal beliefs.......but those beliefs cannot be pushed on another person, and you have to be able to ask questions. I will not see the movies, though, the books were enough.

"Truth be told I really enjoyed the movie. If the books are heavily anti-religion then it didn't spill over into the movie. If there was anything that the movie conveyed it's that people should think for themselves and not buy into groupthink."

"Regardless of your religious or political beliefs, I think this is an entirely valid message."

"Blind faith is the worst kind of faith, because in my opinion it is entirely false and requires no decision on the part of the believer, so we can definitely do away with that!"

Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. Thank you.

"Would I encourage anyone to see the movie or read the books? NO. Would I ever dream of telling someone not to? NO. In fact, my cousin's 12 yr old son has asked her about reading them because he wants to decide for himself, so I am sending them to him for Christmas. Both of us come from conservative Christian backgrounds and have strong personal beliefs.......but those beliefs cannot be pushed on another person, and you have to be able to ask questions. I will not see the movies, though, the books were enough."

Another totally, commendable way of handling the controversy, and situation.