Dan Greene Dan Greene

The Golden Compass

▼

The Golden Compass

Interesting idea, fantasy, reality, and people who fear.

from JoeUser Forums
I saw a flier, at work about this upcoming PG13 (read) kids movie lol.

"Avoid the Golden Compass"

Anyway, I'm not sure, if this is a hoax, or a brilliant marketing idea by the movie studio. Because as everybody knows, if you are a teenager/kid, what you do when you get warned to avoid or beware something, you try to find out more about it right. LOL.

It came up again, in a religious mailer...

Beware of the movie THE GOLDEN COMPASS. OK WTF

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

So I checked out this site, which is where the flier led.

On the site...

"The Golden Compass, a fantasy film starring Nicole Kidman that is scheduled to be released into theaters on 7 December 2007, has been drawing fire from concerned Christians. The film is based on Northern Lights (released in the U.S. as The Golden Compass), the first offering in Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy of children's books, a series that follows the adventures of a streetwise girl who travels
through multiple worlds populated by witches, armor-plated bears, and sinister ecclesiastical assassins to defeat the oppressive forces of a senile God.

Books of the trilogy have sold more than 15 million copies around the world, with Northern Lights winning the Carnegie Medal for Children's Literature in 1995 and in 2007 being awarded the 'Carnegie of Carnegies' for the best children's book of the past 70 years. The Amber Spyglass, the final book of the series, won The Whitbread Prize in 2001, making it the first children's book to do so.

The series' author, Philip Pullman (wo has described himself as both an agnostic and an atheist), has averred that "I don't profess any religion; I don't think it's possible that there is a God; I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what is meant by the words 'spiritual' or 'spirituality.'" Critics of Pullman's books point to the strong anti-religion and anti-God themes they incorporate, and although literary works are subject to a variety of interpretations, Pullman left little doubt about his books' intended meanings when he said in a 2003 interview that "My books are about killing God" and in a 2001 interview that he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief." (In 2002 conservative British columnist Peter Hitchens labeled Pullman "The Most Dangerous Author in Britain" and described him as the writer "the atheists would have been praying for, if atheists prayed.")"

Another link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_(film)

Well anyway, according to the wiki, without even letting the film be released/viewed, the "Catholic League" is calling for a boycott...

Reason : "denigrate Christianity" and promote "atheism for kids." "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."

It's a good thing, we have these nuts seeking to protect the Catholic Church's youngest membership, by censoring their eyes and ears to such blasphemous fantasy.

Does not the church realize we live in the era, where people are using religions to cut off the heads of others, to lash a woman for naming a teddy bear Muhamed, and to blow up each other, who aren't fanatic enough?

This is a movie, a plot of the movie, you know a fantasy movie, a plot device is the Golden Compass, which is a compass which points rather to True North, It points toward truth in general. Is there really a dangerous attempt buried here? A lesson really to be learned beyond the whole experience of being dazzled by the mystical graphics? Doubtful. Yeah sure as adults, we can read into the theme of anything and look for underlying messages. But so what.

By the way I would guess it's not pointing in the direction of a democrat or republican. LOL

Is a message of be suspicious of any religious teaching that asks you to do things you might not want to do, really that dangerous to children? I don't think so but then I'm not a religious nut right folks?
21,310 views 142 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yes, educating people about the movie is exactly what the the League is doing. The League has educated us to the fact that the movie blashemes God, denegrates Christianity and promotes atheism TO CHILDREN.

Based upon this, the Catholic League is alerting parents by suggesting that we boycott the film.
End of quote


I disagree, Lula. The Catholic League is promoting a boycott based upon the reputation of a film that its members and leaders have not seen. That is promoting censorship not education. If the Catholic League boycotted the film after having viewed it, then its representatives would be speaking from a position of knowledge and not ignorance.

Also, you seem to be oddly hung up on the concept of truth. No one is suggesting that the movie or the book represents some kind of absolute truth, only that there is a device, the film's namesake, that references truth in some manner (again, within the context of the story).

While reasonable people can probably agree that parents should make their own decisions about films that their children should or should not see, I have a tendency to agree with zoologist on one point (
If a movie about polar bears wearing armor can totally topple your religious belief system then you might have more problems than you realize.
End of quote
). The film is rated PG-13, after all. By 13 years old, children should have some kind of concept of metaphysics and religion. A thinking child of this age is unlikely to be swayed from his/her existing religious framework by this movie any more than The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe created hordes of new young Christian converts.

In fairness, Dan, I should point out that, again in conversations with my mom, she has indicated that in the second and third volumes, the author really makes the attack on organized, monotheistic religion pretty blatant. I haven't yet read any of the books myself, so I can only speak from this source of secondhand information, but it would appear that, if the books are all translated faithfully into celluloid, Catholics and others might have much to be offended about.





Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
So in essence, if it isn't Catholic, it's satanic, or atheistic? Is that the black and white, no middle ground argument you are making?

Prove for instance the existence of God, and I'll call your God true. Since Atheists don't believe in the existence of God, the truth for them, is that.

You are making quite a stretch if you are implying that the Golden Compass, by which the plot device, a golden compass, is a meter of truth. Such a device does not exist, Or does it? Even a lie detector will only measure a person's natural reactions to giving an answer they believe is either false or true.

If I am asked if the world is flat, and I believe it is, then the best lie detector created by science, cannot know which is true, only what I believe is true.

The plot device in the movie, though creative, is not nearly as pass/fail readable, as the lie detector. Like I said there are some series of symbols, and more then one indicator, essentially it gives you a readout like a slot machines. I find it hard to conceivably believe, anybody departing from their faith by substituting the reality in the movie, or by questioning their faith to the extent they no longer believe because of the movie's teaching.

Faith, it about believing in the absence of absolute fact. Therefore, your faith, is no more or less relevant than atheism, regardless of what you personally believe.

"Yes, educating people about the movie is exactly what the the League is doing."

No that is not exactly what they are doing. Stop misrepresenting their actions, my my you are so determined to guard your faith against anything that might cause you to question it.

"On October 7, 2007 the Catholic League called for a boycott of the film."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_(film)

Boycott does not = education in the English language. Or we would all be receiving our "High Boycott Diplomats" when we graduate public school.

"Kissling also stated "[Donohue] has made it his business to protest every bit of pop culture and politics that doesn't mesh perfectly with his strict views on Catholic doctrine" and added that many have noted that he is a "total media hound"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_League_%28US%29

You need to get "boycotted" on this issue, to substitute the word educate as freely as you seem fit to claim the C league as doing.

Rather than just tune out the video/audio/literature that doesn't apply to them, this group is actively protesting and calling for boycotts, against anything Anti-Catholic. That's fine, that's their right, however the rest of us, whether we are in steady demand or just interested in occasional raunchy entertainment, certainly don't need some religious league trying to decide for the public what is fit for the public to watch.

Thats what a boycott does, it takes away from the enrichment of life, literature, media, creativity. If you want to see an example of boycotting and censorship done by the masters, check out Islam, and the Sharia, or nations where free press doesn't exist.

Whenever you willingly comply with a group to censor a work of creativity, no matter how crude or distasteful or seemingly valueless to you, you deconstruct the of free speech and expression.

Seriously, are you still defending the C leagues' decision to cite this work of fantasy as an example of a danger to the Catholic church, children, or Catholic families?
ObjectDock - Access shortcuts and frequently used applications from an animated dock.
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
That is promoting censorship not education.
End of quote


No, censorship is if the government banned its distribution. The Catholic League is providing nothing of the sort. They are simply educating parents as to their opinion.


I haven't yet read any of the books myself, so I can only speak from this source of secondhand information, but it would appear that, if the books are all translated faithfully into celluloid, Catholics and others might have much to be offended about.
End of quote


And this is where the irony of these sorts of controversies comes about. While I personally never purchase materials I review (that's what the local library is good for), if this movie gains any traction at all in pop culture, I will feel compelled to review it. Had there been no controversy attached, I wouldn't review it even IF it were the most popular movie on the planet. Thus, the Catholic League may advance wider reading/viewing of the series than it would have without the call to boycott.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Whenever you willingly comply with a group to censor a work of creativity, no matter how crude or distasteful or seemingly valueless to you, you deconstruct the of free speech and expression.
End of quote


I disagree. A boycott is not censorship. They're not lobbying the government to shut down the film, heck they're not even lobbying theatre owners not to show the film (which is again not censorship!)

Censorship happens when the government bans the public exhibition of a form of expression. Not only is that not happening, the Catholic League is not even encouraging it.
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top


Gideon, I disagree with your definition of censorship.

Merriam-Webster defines it as "the institution, system, or practice of censoring" and censor the transitive verb as " to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable." Nowhere in these definitions is there an implicit or explicit mention of a governmental authority.

Censorship by religious authorities is in fact the question here. Recall the Catholic Church's Index Librorum Prohibitorum. While the Church lacks the kind of secular power that it had to enforce the list in the 16th century, it is still very much a question of a religious authority decreeing sight unseen that a work is inappropriate for members of its faith.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
" to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable."
End of quote


They're not trying to suppress or delete anything, just encouraging people not to attend. And in order to censor, one must have the authority to censor. The Catholic Church lacks that power.

Or do you feel we HAVE to see every movie that comes out, or be guilty of censorship?
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Or do you feel we HAVE to see every movie that comes out, or be guilty of censorship?
End of quote


Exactly....good point.

Warreni posts:
The Catholic League is promoting a boycott based upon the reputation of a film that its members and leaders have not seen.
End of quote


Take porno films...by your logic, Catholics must see them before condemning them?

Warreni posts:
it is still very much a question of a religious authority decreeing sight unseen that a work is inappropriate for members of its faith.
End of quote


You bet...and the Catholic Church has been guiding us in faith and morals through this valley of tears we call "the world" for 2,000 years.
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

Gordon,

You allude to some power required to censor work. I would argue that the Catholic Church has (or claims) power over its adherents across the world and this constitutes (if correct) a significant amount of power.

Or do you feel we HAVE to see every movie that comes out, or be guilty of censorship?
End of quote


No. I never said anything of the kind. I merely pointed out that the act of condemning a work and promoting a boycott of said work without even having firsthand knowledge of whether that work says anything that might be deemed offensive or even simply contradictory to the Church's doctrinal teachings certainly looks like an attempt at censorship.

Lulu,


Take porno films...by your logic, Catholics must see them before condemning them?
End of quote


Without getting into a lengthy and tedious discourse on the definition of "obscene," I would suggest that any serious attempt to equate a work that may contain controversial religious ideas with pornography is absurd on its face. If the film contained references to your God being a degenerate who cavorted with children and ate babies, yes, I could see you making a case that it is, in some sense, a form of intellectual pornography; however, the judgment has been made to condemn the movie without a prior screening by the authorities of the organization denouncing it. To me, that seems wrong. If you disagree, well, that's your right too.






Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dan Greene posts:
You are making quite a stretch if you are implying that the Golden Compass, by which the plot device, a golden compass, is a meter of truth.
End of quote


Dan you are the one who brought up truth...you are the one describing the golden compass as a meter of truth...not me.

I was responding to what you wrote in the main article:

This is a movie, a plot of the movie, you know a fantasy movie, a plot device is the Golden Compass, which is a compass which points rather to True North, It points toward truth in general.
End of quote


In reply #5 you say:
I guess it would be asking too much for people to even, have seen the movie, before you can call it "Satanic, atheistic" lol. It's a fantasy kids movie, with a theme being a golden compass, which points to the truth.
End of quote


To which I asked whose truth? And you reply---the atheist's truth.

Prove for instance the existence of God, and I'll call your God true. Since Atheists don't believe in the existence of God, the truth for them, is that.
End of quote


Are you holding up atheism over belief in God? You tell me to prove the existence of God, yet when do you give equal challenge to the Pullmans of this world and require them to prove there is no God as this movie suggests (to little kids no less)?

As for proving the existence of God, I'll start by saying Truth is in possession. And there is no grey area in truth. Truth is black and white...you either possess truth or you don't.

God is Truth...and atheists such as Pullman deny God so how can they have truth?

Look around. The stamp of God's handiwork is so clearly impressed upon creation and above all, upon man, that all inherently believe there is some Being out there who is greater than them.

Men do not have to persuade themselves that there is a God. They have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. ANd no one, yet, who has attained such a temporary persuasion, has been able to find a valid reason for it. Men do not grow into the idea of a God, they endeavor to grow out of it.




Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
promoting a boycott of said work without even having firsthand knowledge of whether that work says anything that might be deemed offensive or even simply contradictory to the Church's doctrinal teachings certainly looks like an attempt at censorship
End of quote


OK, an attempt, maybe. I'll concede that possibility.

However, I think it is important to notice this did not come from the Vatican, but rather the Catholic League. The former has real official authority; the latter is a private, civil rights organization. So it is an attempt to inform, not to censor.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

Lula,

Oops. My brain saw "Lulupilgrim," not "Lulapilgrim." Apologies for the nomenclatural gaffe.
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
You allude to some power required to censor work. I would argue that the Catholic Church has (or claims) power over its adherents across the world and this constitutes (if correct) a significant amount of power.
End of quote


I think the reference was to some 'authority' not so much 'power' to censor work.

While the Catholic Church was given authority to teach from Christ Himself, she has no "power" per se over her adherants. Catholics are called to firmly adhere to the Church's ex cathedra decrees in matters of faith and morals. It's important to note that in the case of the Catholic League by condemning the Golden Compass and calling for a boycott isn't an official act of the Church. Catholics are free to take the League's warnings into consideration, and make their own choice.
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reason : "denigrate Christianity" and promote "atheism for kids." "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."
End of quote


I agree with this. I've been warned about this movie actually months ago. I'm not Catholic but I agree with their warning. Otherwise unsuspecting parents may not have the slightest idea the spirit behind such a movie.

The thought that this movie is being compared to J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S.Lewis is ridiculous and something I believe neither Tolkien nor Lewis would be amused by.

Phillip Pullman (the author) is only trying to spread his anti-God message to his audience and to think as Christian parents we should just sit there and take this is just as ridiculous and not what God would call us to do. He calls for us to stand up and take a stand against such things.

Imagine, an Author writing a novel about your mother or other family member bad mouthing her to the extreme....should you go and see it to be "enlightened?"

This is what Pullman had to say to an interviewer about well-known and much loved popular Author C.S. Lewis....

"I hate the Narnia books, and I hate them with a deep and bitter passion, with their view of childhood as a golden age from which sexuality and adulthood are a falling-away."

I imagine he does hate the Narnia books filled with godly examples and analogies (check the spirit).

On his personal website he states:

"The meaning of a story emerges in the meeting between the words on the page and thoughts in the reader's mind. So when people ask me what I meant by this story, or what was the message I was trying to convey in that one, I have to explain that I'm not going to explain. Anyway, I'm not in the message business; I'm in the 'Once upon a time' business."

So is he just trying to tell a story innocently with no anti-God sentiments behind it? Is he really only trying to tell an interesting story. Should we believe him?

Well as Christians we know the lies behind Satan as we test the Spirits and look deeper into what and who is really behind such things. We are told to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

So the answer is no. Don't trust him. He contradicts himself when he said this:

"All stories teach," he's said, "whether the storyteller intends them to or not. They teach the world we create. They teach the morality we live by. They teach it much more effectively than moral precepts and instructions. ... We don't need lists of rights and wrongs, tables of do's and don'ts: We need books, time and silence. 'Thou shalt not' is soon forgotten."

"His Dark Materials" Trilogy is just at the basic level a refutation against Christianity incorporating such things as divination, homosexuaality, witchcraft, evolution, premarital sex with accompanying smoking, drinking, some profanity and violence.

It's well known that when you want to change a generation you go for the children. That's exactly who Pullman is going after to broadcast his message, "My Books are about killing God."

So exactly why would a Christian want to take part in paying for this?








Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
Take porno films...by your logic, Catholics must see them before condemning them?
End of quote


Maybe that's not such a bad idea. Catholics can be a little sexually repressed at times...with that whole celibacy thing.

~Zoo
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
lula posts:
Yes, educating people about the movie is exactly what the the League is doing. The League has educated us to the fact that the movie blashemes God, denegrates Christianity and promotes atheism TO CHILDREN.

Based upon this, the Catholic League is alerting parents by suggesting that we boycott the film.
End of quote


I disagree, Lula. The Catholic League is promoting a boycott based upon the reputation of a film that its members and leaders have not seen. That is promoting censorship not education. If the Catholic League boycotted the film after having viewed it, then its representatives would be speaking from a position of knowledge and not ignorance.
End of quote


On the contrary, even without seeing the movie, the Catholic League has done its homework and is speaking from knowledge...

Why?

Becasue they know that the movie, (even though it's anti-Catholicism and anti-God is supposedly watered down a bit) is based upon Pullman's books.

And the Catholic League has learned about what the author has to say of himself which Dan Greene has cited in the main article---

The series' author, Philip Pullman (wo has described himself as both an agnostic and an atheist), has averred that "I don't profess any religion; I don't think it's possible that there is a God; I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what is meant by the words 'spiritual' or 'spirituality.'" Critics of Pullman's books point to the strong anti-religion and anti-God themes they incorporate, and although literary works are subject to a variety of interpretations, Pullman left little doubt about his books' intended meanings when he said in a 2003 interview that "My books are about killing God" and in a 2001 interview that he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."
End of quote


In the Gospels Christ asks can a good tree bear rotten fruit? The movie is the fruit of the books and Pullman's imagination which are by his own admission---anti-Christian and atheistic to the core.

As a former librarian, I previewed Pullman's books. His fantasy universe is nihilistic, rooted in chaos, atheistic and angry at God and at children.

There is no way the movie, even though it's been said to have been watered down a bit, has been sanitized of its anti-Christianity.
And what is most gauling to me is that this movie is directed to unwary impressionable young children.

There is no doubt in my mind, even without seeing the movie, the Catholic League has warned the Christian community well...boycott the movie....for it cannot be anything but spiritual poison to our children -- for the movie is the fruit of the book.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC, what do you mean by "test the Spirits"?
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
I agree with this. I've been warned about this movie actually months ago. I'm not Catholic but I agree with their warning. Otherwise unsuspecting parents may not have the slightest idea the spirit behind such a movie.
End of quote


Yes, you bring up an excellent point KFC.

Make no mistake, there is a very evil spirit behind the movie.

Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC POSTS:
I agree with this. I've been warned about this movie actually months ago. I'm not Catholic but I agree with their warning. Otherwise unsuspecting parents may not have the slightest idea the spirit behind such a movie.
End of quote


It's not only Catholic, I have recently received a warning notice from the American Family Association as well...all saying the same thing which boils down to parents beware...
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Is there an evil spirit behind Shrek? Flushed Away? How to Eat Fried Worms? Beauty and the Beast?

No one should feel compelled to watch something they don't want to watch, but I certainly don't understand the impulse to vilify a children's movie.

We watched LOTR. We watched The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. We'll watch The Golden Compass.

It's fantasy. Not everything has to be broken down into a meaningful allegory. Some things are valuable just because they are entertaining and fun.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top

Is there an evil spirit behind Shrek? Flushed Away? How to Eat Fried Worms? Beauty and the Beast?

End of quote



Well, actually, I think there is an evil spirit behind Beauty and the Beast: Disney. ;)
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
We'll watch The Golden Compass.

It's fantasy. Not everything has to be broken down into a meaningful allegory. Some things are valuable just because they are entertaining and fun.
End of quote


No one is denying that it's been billed as a fantasy story but with Pullman's own peculiar atheistic spin behind it. Imagine a PG 13 rating for blaspheming Christianity!

I say The Golden Compass is not for ANYONE.

Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
I say The Golden Compass is not for ANYONE.
End of quote


So glad you don't have the ability to make entertainment choices for all American families.

Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
So glad you don't have the ability to make entertainment choices for all American families.
End of quote



Ha,ha, ha, I imagine you are!  ;) 

What?--you don't like my advice?





Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC, what do you mean by "test the Spirits"?
End of quote


Well TW this comes from John the disciple when he said:

"Beloved, belive not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God; Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of antichirst whereof you have heard that it should come and even now already is in the world."

John wrote this letter to the Christians (1 John) and in it (including the warning above) you can see his obvious affection for God's people, and his concern for their spiritual welfare. The letter is filled with contrasts...light and darkness.love of the world and love for God...children of God and children of the devil..the spirit of God and the spirit of Antichirst..and love and hate.

When you look at what Pullman said here....

"I hate the Narnia books, and I hate them with a deep and bitter passion, with their view of childhood as a golden age from which sexuality and adulthood are a falling-away."
End of quote


the bitterness and hatred is a dead giveaway. It runs deep by his own admission. Bitterness and hatred never comes from God nor should it belong in a Christian's life. It is the spirit of anti-christ, not Christ. Remember what Christ said on the cross..."father forgive them for they know not what they do." If anyone had a right to hate and be bitter it would have been Christ...but it's not in his nature.




Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's a fantasy kids movie, with a theme being a golden compass, which points to the truth.
End of quote


The problem with that is kids dont, yet, have the ability to understand what is a pure fantasy and what is based on reality. Especially regarding religion. They never seen a God in person, all they hear is ideas about Him. And at this age anything you tell them about that they will take seriously. It is ALL ideas, right?

And, please dont say Tv and movies dont leave impressions on viewers. If that was the case, the marketing empire would not spend billions on commercials. Kids, by nature, are impressionable creatures and this kind of movies confuse not guide them.

People who make movies about any religion have the responsibility of presenting it as it is in real life especially if it is directed at kids. Religion is not an Art form or a Philosophy that are open for different visions or imaginations. It is a divine system to live by and that is a serious matter and should not be played with.

when kids grow up and be able to make up their own minds, they can read and watch whatever they choose. Till then, they should not be exposed to things that confuse them or give them the wrong impression.