think it was Einstein who said the only difference between magic and technology is the level of understanding of the observer.

So very true!

That was Arthur C Clarke, actually - it's considered Clarke's Third Law.

1 - When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2 - The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.
3 - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

That was Arthur C Clarke, actually - it's considered Clarke's Third Law.

Thank you!  I dont actually read Einstein, and I will appologize profusely to Clarke as he is my second favorite author, so I have read him a lot!  I am copying them for future reference!

Einstein did have this to say regarding religion:

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

I never said the bible was written in Latin. The Latin came from Jerome in the 4th Century. He took the Greek and translated it into the language of the day. I said I had a debate with a friend and we went back from the English to the Greek and Latin for clarification. I believe it was a "God thing" those scriptures were found in 1948. They showed that God did preserve his own word and it's just another piece of evidence that many want to discount.

The OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic and was translated into Latin called the Greek Septuigent. Again like I said previously...the bible we have in our hands is quite reliable. You can trust it. If you have questions...there are so many resources out there via the Hebrew and Greek lexicons. If you don't want to trust it...that's up to you. But it's not for the sake of the word itself. It's a choice you make to either believe or not. That's freewill.

Einstein was right. Science and Religion are not opposed but rather fit together quite nicely. It's theories and religion that don't mix. Big difference.

"i AIN'T RELIGIOUS! i JUST LOVE THE LORD"

I LOVE THIS!!!!

I have one that says.....

If you believe there is no GOD....you better be right!!!

the bible we have in our hands is quite reliable. You can trust it

Again, this is your opinion.  You can't prove anything about the bible.  Everything about it requires faith.  It was written decades after Jesus died so the first step of faith is believing that the accounts are accurate.  Then it was translated so you have to believe it was translated correctly.  And finally it has been interpreted over the centuries so you have to have faith that it still retains the original intent.  That is why I could never take the bible literally.  But I don't have any problem with people who believe in the bible in general.

I never said the bible was written in Latin.

No but you said you could go back to the original language and verify.  I pointed out that if you don't know Aramaic you really can't.

 

Everything about it requires faith.

Lol...how come people point out faith...and how we put 'must have to put faith in the Bible' in order to believe it. You have faith all around you...faith in your family, in your job, faith in the person driving next to you that they wont swerve into your lane. Fiath is all around us. You put faith in a buildings structural integrity every time you walk in one. You charge something and have faith that there is money in your account (who knows...maybe someone hacked in and took it while you were driving around). You have faith in the gas gauge on your car and that it is accurate.

God said that it is his words. If God is as powerful and almighty as he says he is...then the words of the Bible are true and conisistant to how He wants them. If you don't believe that is possible, then you can't believe in God because you set aside his own work and creation based solely on your own personal belief that man (imperfect man) could not possibly keep the Bible as the perfect God had created it and designed it.

What I find interesting is that most of the Biblical claims could be reporduced today with our technology and Science.

Along with that is the fact that many things that Science says at one point in time are later changed as time goes on. "This is how it happened.....now this is how it happened.......now that we have done more work...this is how it happened." Science is constantly changing its story. If you go to the dinosaur exhibit at the Smithsonian...they even have a sign asking you to come back as the information is always changing...they tell you that the science is ever changing and the exhibit it outdated and that they are making a new exhibit based on the latest findings. The Bible hasnt changed whereas science has. Also...science does things that leaves scientists wondering...because they are able to do many things in minutes that they say took millions of years (changing clay to rock in minutes, for example)...and then they do something and say that it cant be right beause the numbers dont add up, so they fiddle with them until it does.

Buddhism is completely about the here and now. It's the principles of leading an enlightened life. It does not involve a deity, nor a way of life that leads to a reward after death.

That’s right Karma. I think we can cherish the here and now and find inner peace within our own divinity, as well as believe in an afterlife and an all-loving Creator. I don’t think that any of our world’s religions or traditional philosophies like Buddhism describe the whole picture. They can help each other out though, and together can provide a fuller picture.

Buddha was a man who lived an enlightened life

I think that enlightenment is something to be discovered and discerned for ourselves, (which as you say, is a Buddhist teaching in the first place.)

faith in the person driving next to you that they wont swerve into your lane

Bad example because I never have faith in that one. Matter of fact, I drive as if they are going to hit me because that is always a possibility. Those are all bad examples because it all has to do with real, scientific factors and probability. Here and now stuff that can be tested and proven.

As far as science changing, scientific laws do not change. Theories can change as new things are learned or new evidence is found. Usually when talking about dinosaurs they say things like "scientists now believe.....". Science in general doesn't change. What it uncovers about our world changes constantly. I see that as a good thing.

God said that it is his words.

Did he tell you that personally? He never told me. Therefore it is a matter of faith.

I agree with Ziggy. Faith comes into play all during our daily lives. It's just a matter of what you are willing to put your faith in.

When I sit in a chair. I have faith it's going to hold. When I open a can of corn. I have faith there is going to be corn in that can. Why? Because the past evidence has told me so. When I previously sat in chairs, I did not fall over and the previous cans of corn....yeilded.....corn.

In much the same way I believe the bible to be true. It's not built on "blind" faith. It's built up on evidence. The claims in it have come true. There is no way the stuff in that bible is made up. It would be too bizarre. I've tested it's truths and found them to be true. That's without even considering that nothing outside of scripture has disproven the bible yet. Science, History and archeology all have backed up the claims. Can you think of anything?

No, people do not want to believe it's claims because if there is a God and what it says between those pages are true...then lives would have to change. That's a huge step and not one that many are willing to make.

No, people do not want to believe it's claims because if there is a God and what it says between those pages are true...then lives would have to change.

I would certainly be willing to do whatever I was told if I "knew" what would happen when I died.

Science, History and archeology all have backed up the claims. Can you think of anything?

You're kidding right?  When are you going to stop trying to prove the bible?  You can't.  You see the claims to be true because you want to.  I can understand wanting to believe it.  It sure would be comforting.

I don't have a bible in front of me but a couple of things that come to mind are The age of Earth, The story of Noah, the miracles Jesus performed including resurrection, matter of fact, the only thing that can be proven about Jesus is that he existed and he died.

There are so many inconsistencies in the stories that you don't even have to bring science into it.  Whole web sites are filled with quotes that contradict others.  One that I found the most interesting was that in one place it says not all who call upon Jesus will be saved, another place says all who call upon Jesus will be saved and in yet onther place it says that God himself calls upon people.  I'm not quoting scripture though and am not interested in debating the bible.

Faith doesn't require proof.  You don't have to have faith in a chair because if it fails, you can prove why.  You and Ziggy used examples that you can see and touch and feel and test.  Poor comparison to what you feel in your heart to be true.  I would have a lot more respect if you would just say that you know it in your heart to be true and leave it at that.  Perhaps I haven't experienced something that christians have.  I can believe that.  But if you are saying that it is my intelligence that is preventing me from seeing the "truth", you will lose that debate.

 

don't have a bible in front of me but a couple of things that come to mind are The age of Earth, The story of Noah, the miracles Jesus performed including resurrection, matter of fact, the only thing that can be proven about Jesus is that he existed and he died.

First of all the age of the earth cannot be proven by either side. We both know that. There are many Christian Scientists out there that believe in the young earth theory so this is not a "new thing."

There are many proofs out there that there was a world wide flood one being that every civilization has a flood story in their history on the origin of life. That alone is amazing. Do you know about the fossils found that help prove Noah and the flood? Such as the fossil found in the Philippenes of a woman dying in the middle of giving birth. Literally frozen in time? Or the Wooly mammoths found in Sibera.

I believe if I were there with you I could show you to your satisfaction that those above examples are not contradictions at all. But it's hard to do that when my hands are tied behind my back. You don't want to hear how the scripture works together you only want to debunk it.

I agree with you it is all about heart and it's not about intellect. God is an interior decorator. He works from the inside out. I'm just trying to show you that God doesn't want us to leave our mind at the door. He gives us the evidences as well but only if we're willing to hear it. They are there.

I feel I can't win because if I said it was about the heart you would say you need evidence...that's why I went that route. I do feel this in my heart to be correct but I also am aware of the evidence that helps my faith to grow even stronger.. The more I look the more I see.

I feel I can't win because if I said it was about the heart you would say you need evidence...

If you mean "win" by convincing me to accept christianity, then no, you can't win and being here with me in person wouldn't make any difference at all. If you mean "win" by convincing me that you are a devout christian and it is the truth for you, then all you need is your heart because you don't have evidence.

Do you know about the fossils found that help prove Noah and the flood

There is nothing that has proven the story of Noah. Just because there were floods doesn't prove the story of Noah. Matter of fact, the way genetics work disproves the story of Noah. Not to mention the fact that if all the animals and flora were released at once at one place, Mount Ararat, a lot of them would not have survived to reproduce and they certainly would not have reached all of the locations around the planet that they have.

You don't want to hear how the scripture works together you only want to debunk it.

It is pretty arrogant of you to keep coming on here to tell me what I know, what I don't know or what my intentions are. You don't know me and obviously don't have interest in anything other than christianity so you should really just create your own blog so you can intereact with others who share your interest. You just can't accept that other people can look at the same "evidence" that you have in the bible and come to a different conclusion.

I don't need you to tell me how wrong I am any more than you need me to tell you you are wrong. I happen to believe there are different paths in life. You don't. I don't feel I am lost therefore I don't need a guide. I understand you are trying to help but you can only help those who welcome it.

Please don't think that I think you are a bad person or even that you are wrong in your beliefs. I just don't think that you will be welcomed by nonchristians until you are a little less condescending and presumptuous.

There are many proofs out there that there was a world wide flood one being that every civilization has a flood story in their history on the origin of life. That alone is amazing. Do you know about the fossils found that help prove Noah and the flood? Such as the fossil found in the Philippenes of a woman dying in the middle of giving birth. Literally frozen in time? Or the Wooly mammoths found in Sibera.

If the entire earth flooded at once, where did the water come from, and where did it go to after the flood?  We have experienced floods during our lives, and none of them have ever come close to flooding a large part of the world.

Fossils in odd places don't prove anything.  There are animals all over the world that didn't start out that way.  you can go to any zoo and learn that.  And, that happened before man could have moved them.  It's just the natural change in the Earth.

If dinosaurs, man, and all creatures were created on the 6th day, how come dinosaur fossils and other animal and man fossils are not found in the same location nor come anywhere close in carbon dating?

There are things from science that can be interpreted to back up the bible...well....parts of the bible that they might coincide with and possibly be contradicted in other parts of the bible....but nothing has been "proved".

 

Matter of fact, the way genetics work disproves the story of Noah.

Yeah...that's a tough one.  I mean, if that story were true, we (the human race) would all share some of the same genes.  If you don't believe in evolution, the story even gets less likely.  How did we end up with all the different races and genetics if we all came from the same family (noah and his family)?

And Aleister Crowley summed it up nicely when he said "Magick is the Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will, using methods not currently understood by science."

That's another good one!

if that story were true, we (the human race) would all share some of the same genes

More specifically, all men would have the same Y chromosome. That is obviously not the case so Noah and his sons could not have been the only men to have survived the whole flood scenario. But you can believe that those stories are good lessons rather than taking them literally. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with fundamentalists who take the bible literally and claim it can all be proven. It simply isn't so.

Yeah...that's a tough one. I mean, if that story were true, we (the human race) would all share some of the same genes. If you don't believe in evolution, the story even gets less likely. How did we end up with all the different races and genetics if we all came from the same family (noah and his family)?

I don't know how many news stories I've heard from the science world that says we have all come from one source. At one point I remember a "Lucy" that was talked about from somewhere in Africa as the mother of us all.

From a Christian standpoint we do all come from Noah's three sons. The Jews are traced to Shem. The Europeans are traced to Japeth and the Africans are traced through Ham. I do believe in evolution only in the sense of micro vs macro.

I think you believe that Jesus lived right? So just going from that. He mentioned Noah and gave credibilty by doing so to the whole flood scene. What do you do with the seashell fossils found on the top of mountains? There are so many facts that point to a cataclysmic flood event that happened way back that demands an answer. I believe that scripture gives it.

And Jill I have lots of non christian friends. I'm not as hard nosed as you suppose. If you really didn't want me to engage in conversation about this....I would honor that request. And I'm really not trying to convince anyone. I'm just giving you my views which differ from yours. If you feel pressure that I'm trying to convert you...please know it's not coming from me. I can't do that anyhow. It's a God thing.

I think your thinking me presumptous really is only that I'm absolutely convinced in my heart and mind. The more I study this book the more I'm amazed at the contents. It's like doing a puzzle. When you find another piece it's amazing how the whole thing fits together. But this takes time and committment and a belief that God has put in my heart.

If the entire earth flooded at once, where did the water come from, and where did it go to after the flood? We have experienced floods during our lives, and none of them have ever come close to flooding a large part of the world.

First we were promised that the world would never be destroyed again by flood...the rainbow is a reminder of that promise.

The waters came from above and below. There is no record of rainfall before the great flood. So looking at scriptures it says that the fountains of the great deep were broken up and the heavens opened. Many think some sort of earthquakes all over that triggered this canopy to burst open. From the scriptures there was a canopy over the earth...sort of like a greenhouse effect. This helped in the longevity of man. Today with radiation we have no such protection as they were afforded back then.

Mountains were covered forty five feet over the top. The thought also is that before the flood the earth was fairly flat, mountains not as they are today. When the mountains rose up out of this the waters prevailed and settled in the lower basins.

Believe it or not...there are many past sightings of the ark over a period of many years. One of our astronauts went on a mission to try and find this ark. It's believed to be sumerged in ice and snow in the mountains of Turkey. We can't get in there today as it is well protected Muslim territory. But the past sightings all had common stories. The most interesting is that the door was missing. Well if you look at scripture the first thing Noah did was to build an altar to God. I believe he used that door to do so.

There are more than 270 flood stories from all parts of the world. If you fast forward to Peter in the first Century. He wrote about this and said the next time the world will be destroyed by fire. The more I read of this stuff the more I'm convinced it's some sort of nuclear destruction we have coming along with some sort of astroids being sent down. I've not only read the last book I've studied it to some depth. And it's a fascinating subject but more than that I believe it to be true.

I don't know how many news stories I've heard from the science world that says we have all come from one source. At one point I remember a "Lucy" that was talked about from somewhere in Africa as the mother of us all.

I would like the source of that info because it doesn't strike true to any scientific theories I have ever heard. I do know, however, that they did argon-argon dating on Lucy and think her to be over 3 million years old. Not exactly in line with the Noah story is it.

It just seems like every time I offer up scientific information that disproves something you come up with a "I seem to have heard_____ that supports the story" and gloss over what I had said. You disregarded the scientific eveidence of chromosomal DNA and skipped on over to "from a christian standpoint".

I think you believe that Jesus lived right? So just going from that. He mentioned Noah and gave credibilty by doing so to the whole flood scene.

Again, yes, I believe Jesus lived. I also know that Jesus did not write in the bible anything about Noah. A man relayed that story decades after Jesus had died. As far as fossils on mountain tops, all that proves is that the Earth has gone through a lot of changes over millions of years. Yes, science shows that areas that are now dry were once covered in water. That proves nothing about Noah.

You have a commitment to christianity and a belief in your heart. I am happy for you. God has not put that belief in mine and is the only being that can. Logically the bible makes little sense to me. It is merely a collection of stories that teach morality and perhaps help people discern right from wrong. It also fills people with hope and that is a very good thing.

So, anyone else out there want to chime in?

You disregarded the scientific eveidence of chromosomal DNA and skipped on over to "from a christian standpoint".

Well that's because I know nothing about this. I'm not disregarding anything. How can I respond? You also do the same. The ark sightings are not "biblical" but real accounts and you did not respond to that. So what does that mean? It probably means that you have not heard of that. Right?

Again, yes, I believe Jesus lived. I also know that Jesus did not write in the bible anything about Noah. A man relayed that story decades after Jesus had died

Jesus didn't physically write a thing. You're right. Well I take that back. He wrote something in the sand once.

But he did say that he would bring all things into their rememberance. This was so they could write effectively. And you're talking 2-3 decades. I believe he wrote the whole OT and NT...but used men to do so. It says they were moved by the Holy Spirit. How else could 40 men over the course of 1500 years and three continents come up with a work that does not contradict.

We couldn't have an accident with 5 witnesses on the corner give the same story. Yet somehow these men all without knowing each other seem to come up with words that I believe came from the same source.

The ark sightings are not "biblical" but real accounts and you did not respond to that.

What Ark sightings?  There is no proof of there having been an Ark.  I do know this because I do read about the subject.  Sure, there have been claims but no evidence.  People claim to see UFOs all the time too but I don't believe in that either.

As for the DNA, From the Science Spectra:

Genesis, chapter 5, records "the generations of Adam": Adam begat Seth, Seth begat Enosh, Enosh begat Kenan... down to Noah of the flood (Table 1). Translated into modern genetic terms,

Table 1: Before the flood: the generations of Adam according to the book of Genesis * How did Seth feel, outliving his great, great, great-grandson Enoch by 55 years? † And how about Enoch, sensing himself slipping away earlier than his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather?

the account could read "Adam passed a copy of his Y chromosome (Figure 1) to Seth, Seth passed a copy of his Y chromosome to Enosh, Enosh passed a copy of his Y chromosome to Kenan"... and so on until Noah was born carrying a copy of Adam's Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is paternally inherited; human males have one while females have none. What is more, the Y chromosome a father passes to his son is, in large measure, an unchanged copy of his own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scientifically, if the lineage put forth in the bible is true, then you would be able to trace from Noah's sons back to Adam.  But nothing in science shows that man today can be traced back to Noah because all men would have to have a common Y marker and science proves to the contrary.

 

How else could 40 men over the course of 1500 years and three continents come up with a work that does not contradict.

Here we go again.  Here are a few contradictions:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

First we were promised that the world would never be destroyed again by flood...the rainbow is a reminder of that promise.

No, a rainbow is what is created when water droplets at as a prism and reflect (actually, refract) light.

And, a great bit of the world *has* been destroyed by flood, especially recently.  So, I guess he isn't a man of his word, huh?

The ark sightings are not "biblical" but real accounts and you did not respond to that.

They are accounts of what people *think* they saw.  How do you know that it's not just a large (fairly) modern ship of some sort?  Or, even a rock?  If it is buried in ice, it could be anything under there.

I mean, in 87' they claimed that they found the ark (The Turkish Government even said it was!) Then they decided it wasn't.  So, now we have *proof* by photos of what they are *now* claiming is the ark.  Look!  This proves it!:

I mean...who could dispute that type of solid "proof"!???