Andrew, why do you not spell the word out - God? Just curious. Also, out of respectful curiosity, how can you believe in God but not in Christ? Wasn't it through Christ that we were all saved?

I can answer that for myself.  We all know that Jesus Christ existed.  Christians believe that he is the son of God.  *Only* christians believe that.  That is why I find a question like that to be an unthinking one.  Just because you feel that we are all saved through Christ doesn't mean everyone shares that feeling, belief, faith.  Why couldn't one believe that we had a creator without believing he sent a son to Earth to "save" us?

I believe Jesus was an extremely important teacher who changed mankind for the better.  His compasionate ways and peaceful messages are important no matter what religion you are affiliated with.  But that doesn't mean that he had to be the son of God. 

Heaven and Hell are both on Earth, and once I die, I'm nothing but worm food and compost. And, I'm totally cool with that.

I commend you for that.  I know a lot of people who wouldn't be cool with that and that is something that attracts them to organized religion, the faith that there is reward in the after life.

 

Oh, I dont know about that. Seems Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are living pretty well!

I wouldn't consider them the most devout christians I know.

Simply put, I believe that if there is a Creator, He or She cares more that we try to help each day than that we participate in rituals. And if there ISN'T a Creator, then the good deeds are there own reward.

I think that is an absolutely wonderful way to live!

I lay my problems at his feet and he takes care of them for me.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't like to have that feeling Ziggy.

 

 

I'm an atheist, and I try to live my life to the "moral code" of maximizing good and minimizing harm

I have a dear christian friend who honostly asked "how can you teach your children morality without christianity?" I don't know about you latour99, but I believe in good and evil. I believe evil people will do things that good people simply never could. You can also believe in treating others the way you would have them treat you without believing Christ is the son of God. In other words, christianity doesn't equal morality. I know very moral atheists and I know very immoral christians. The two are exclusive.

Andrew, why do you not spell the word out - God? Just curious.

Somebody might print out the text I wrote and accidentally destroy the copy.

Also, out of respectful curiosity, how can you believe in God but not in Christ? Wasn't it through Christ that we were all saved?

I believe in G-d the creator. I do not believe in G-d the meddler. For me the idea of a "son of G-d" is too much meddling. If you believe in Christ and that he saved you, that's good. It's a very positive faith! But I cannot believe in something I cannot see, except for the one thing that I could not possibly see by definition.

I realise this is somewhat offensive towards Christians. But I cannot explain it in any other way. Sorry.

Why [do the laws in the Bible only apply to Jews]? Again, my curiosity as to how you arrive at this.

The Torah was given to the Jews. Alternatively it was made up by the Jewish leader at the time. Either way, it's Jewish law. G-d did not demand that anybody follow it but Jews, at least if what the Bible says about it is true. (We will have to assume that this is so since we already assumed that the laws in the Bible are G-d's laws.)

The Bible does mention the laws of Noah, which are binding for all humanity (all descendants of Noah, who was, allegedly, the only survivor, with his family, at a time). But these laws are more general and not identical with the 613 commandments (of which the ten commandments are the summary or category list).

Christians and Muslims (and other faiths) later voluntarily agreed to follow Jewish law as well, and based their new religions on it. But I do not believe that there is any obligation for non-Jews to follow the law.

Christians are allowed to eat pork.

(Even though Flanders in the Simpsons eats kosher, just in case!)

If you believe in Christ and that he saved you, that's good. It's a very positive faith! But I cannot believe in something I cannot see, except for the one thing that I could not possibly see by definition.

But I thought you were Jewish, so you are awaiting your Saviour.  This befuddles me.

But I thought you were Jewish, so you are awaiting your Saviour.  This befuddles me.

Nobody guarantees that this will be a physical event. For me it was always symbolic for hope.

For me it was always symbolic for hope.

But if it is symbolic, then by what you say, you cant believe in it.  So how will you know?

But if it is symbolic, then by what you say, you cant believe in it.  So how will you know?

I believe in hope because I have hope.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is not like the Christian concept. The Jewish Messiah will not be a saviour or some god-like being. He will be a normal human being. He will bring peace to Israel and the world. I believe in that hope.

I believe that the whole thing merely represents hope. If we believe that there is a chance of success, we can work towards the goal.

If the world will end and we all meet again afterwards, in a "heaven" of some kind, I can certainly not know that now. It would be an event outside of physical reality. I hope that it happens, and I believe it will. But the physical world will never be affected by it.

I just think that I can embrace the moral concepts without being compelled to follow the ritual.

I reread this and I really like this message.  One of the  things I didn't like about the different church services that I have attended over the years is all of the chanting, signing, etc.  that you "just do".  So often when I would ask why those things were done, I couldn't get an answer other than it is just part of the religion.  Some people put immense thought into their religion and I have a lot of respect for that.  It is the ones that just go with the flow without ever questioning that bother me.  Ritual means nothing.  Where your heart and mind are is everything.

I have had some of the most morally bankrupt people I know tell me I am going to hell because I wasn't baptized.  Too many people think such a ritual will "save" them.  I have a friend whose baby almost died when he was first born and she was terrified that he would go to purgatory because he hadn't been baptized yet.  This made me infuriated with the catholic church.

I believe there is me
I believe there is my wife
I believe there is my dog
I believe there is my extended family
I believe there are my friends.
I treat them all with respect and kindness
They treat me the same.

That is all.

believe Jesus was an extremely important teacher who changed mankind for the better. His compasionate ways and peaceful messages are important no matter what religion you are affiliated with. But that doesn't mean that he had to be the son of God.

This "teacher" said he was not only the "son" of God. He said He was "God." So either this "teacher" was telling the truth or he was lying.

But if it is symbolic, then by what you say, you cant believe in it. So how will you know

Thanks Doc...I was thinkin that too.

This "teacher" said he was not only the "son" of God. He said He was "God." So either this "teacher" was telling the truth or he was lying.

Yep. That's true. But you can learn important lessons either way. He could have been on drugs and it wouldn't have made his lessons of being kind to one another any less important. A good idea is a good idea whether it comes from a genius or a lunatic (and sometimes they are one and the same).

BTW, I just wanted to mention that I greatly appreciate everyone honoring my request.  I know that religion is a personal thing that people feel very passionate about.  Everyone has been very tolerant and I am really enjoying the discussion as a result.

Thank you!

I can comment here, but I can't comment through the JU homepage, that's strange. I'm sure it has something to do with the changes my status has gone through due to violations of the TOU (no biggie, at any rate).

I've enjoyed reading this discussion quite a bit. After reading Karen's remarks, it made me think that if I had to pick any system of belief to follow, it would probably be Taoism. Lao Tsu seems to understand things better even that Gautama Buddha, although "pure" Buddhism is a wonderful thing. Buddhism in its other forms has been far too removed from its non-theistic roots for my taste, though -- and unfortunately, most of the reading I've done on Buddhism hasn't made enough of a separation between early Buddhism and later Buddhism (and I'm aware that there are greater separations than that).

There's an old tale that I love, and it concerns Confucious, Buddha, and Lao Tsu. The purpose of the tale is to draw a distinction between each philosophy. It seems, at one time, that Confucious, Buddha, and Lao Tsu were all gathered around a jar of vinegar. Confucious tasted the vinegar, and being practical, called the flavor "sour." Buddha, who believed that all life is suffering tasted the vinegar and called it bitter. Lao Tsu, who believed that things are defined by opposites and outside our knowledge tasted the vinegar and called it sweet. Each of them was right in his own way, due to his own perception.

Cheers.

I have noticed in my experience that the most devoutly religious people tend to live the most miserable lives.

Sorry Jill, I don't have time to read all the replies, although its a very interesting topic. I will have to disagree with you on this one though. I know some people who are devoutly religious and are quite happy(although I know some devoutly religious who aren't happy). I know happy Buddhists, Christians:Catholics, Lutherans, Adventists, and Non-denoms., Muslims, and even a couple Wikkens(I am not sure how devout they are because I am not very familiar with their practices). Overall, I think that being devoutly religious does not have to create a miserable lifestyle, even though it seems some devoutists are miserable, but it depends on personality.

I wish you luck in your soul searching and hope you find truth (tell me when you do ).

Jay

I know some people who are devoutly religious and are quite happy

I think that being devoutly religious does not have to create a miserable lifestyle

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Obviously I don't think that all devoutly religious people are miserable. I was saying that it seems that people who are really miserable become extremely religious in order to deal with what they are faced with in the here and now.

I never insinuated that being devoutly religious would make you miserable. And I was only speaking of my own experience and not in general so you really can't disagree with what I experienced...can you?

Confucious tasted the vinegar, and being practical, called the flavor "sour." Buddha, who believed that all life is suffering tasted the vinegar and called it bitter. Lao Tsu, who believed that things are defined by opposites and outside our knowledge tasted the vinegar and called it sweet. Each of them was right in his own way, due to his own perception.

I absolutely love that story! Life is a great adventure in learning. What a great age we live in where we can enjoy great minds from around the world at our fingertips here on JU! Thanks Myr. Food for the mind and soul...yummy!

people who are really miserable become extremely religious in order to deal with what they are faced with

That is true.

And in fact, that is the market for religion.

What is fortunate is that there are religions that actually help these people. Christianity is a good example!

What is unfortunate is that there are religions and pseudo-religions and fundamentalist versions of religions that basically prey on this people and make them do their bidding.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is not like the Christian concept. The Jewish Messiah will not be a saviour or some god-like being. He will be a normal human being. He will bring peace to Israel and the world. I believe in that hope. I believe that the whole thing merely represents hope. If we believe that there is a chance of success, we can work towards the goal.

I hope you write more on this.  I find it intriguing since my knowledge in the area is woefully lacking.  It would be an interesting read.

hope you write more on this. I find it intriguing since my knowledge in the area is woefully lacking. It would be an interesting read

I second that suggestion!

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is not like the Christian concept. The Jewish Messiah will not be a saviour or some god-like being. He will be a normal human being. He will bring peace to Israel and the world.

From a biblical Christian perspective....you have just described the Anti-Christ. This is exactly what many Christians are talking about right now. We are watching Israel and Iran very closely. Cuz we believe (based on scripture) that Iran will go into Israel to destroy it...but be unsuccesful. We believe a "man" will broker peace (howbeit false peace) between the Jews and the Arabs and eventually the whole world will be united under this time of "peace" but it will be short lived.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

-Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha), 563-483 B.C.

I couldn't agee with you more LW!

gluasad, that is exactly why Budhism is a philosophy and not a religion. Buddha just says that you should think before you leap. I totally agree with that philosophy. Thanks for the great quote!

interesting

I've tended to look at religion much the same as I look at a Star Trek convention.  You have a bunch of people who are really into their story.

From an outside point of view, there's not that much difference between hard-core fans of a sci-fi show and religious people.

In many respects, Christianity was one of the first fan clubs. But instead of them asking panelists (priests) "Remember in Episode 1S15A where Captain Piquard meets the Dralak? How could he know the Dralak were really people from the future?" you get "Remember in Leviticus 1:15 where we're not allowed to sell slaves to foreigners? Does that count Canadians?"