Deism

Hey, I'm glad that little article and discussion interested you so much! Although "deism" is sort of an anachronistic term, I think a lot of folks would fall into that category. Honestly, of all the theists I encounter, folks like yourself would be my preference every time. I used to spend a lot of time with the Unitarians (when I still lived in a place with a Unitarian church), and they taught me a lot about deism -- some deists pray to a generic (although I hate to use that term, it isn't quite right) "creator," and others think that the universe has a creator who made the thing and then left it alone, taking no active role in the day to day affairs of said universe (not that those two camps encompass all Unitarians...the "unity" means one of people getting together rather than a unity of belief).

In popular fiction, I suppose the best example of deism I can think of would be how Tolkien treats the creator of his world in the Middle Earth books. C.S. Lewis also has a rather uninvolved godhead (the Emperor-over-the-sea), but has his character Aslan fulfill the role of a more active deity. On the other hand, J.K. Rowling's books seem entirely devoid of any deities whatsoever, with the "magic" of Harry and gang being treated more like a science. And sorry if all that fantasy nerd stuff bored you (hehe).

That my article made you look into it and then post this makes the discussion we had on my thread perhaps my favorite one I've had here. I've also yet to mention it, but good luck to you and Brad with a new little one on the way.

Cheers.

p.s. and as I mentioned on that other thread, some of the greatest thinkers ever (including many of the founders of this country) were deists of some form or another, which puts you in pretty good company

I'm Christian. Christianity makes sense to me. I see the logic in it and it's helped me to deal with stuff in life, and it's helped me to "rationalize" those "bad things that happen to good people."

I agree with you that we can't really know the entire nature of God--in my case of course I'm talking about the Christian God. I have a relationship with him, but I can't know everything about Him or understand all His reasoning because He is God. I feel like I can prove God, but my proof doesn't equate proof in anyone else's life but my own. God is someone you have to experience for myself. I daresay that my Christian journey is far different than anyone else's, just because we're unique people.

While Christianity works for me, I can see why lots of people get turned off by it. There's lots of people out there who label themselves "Christian" but don't lead Christian lives. There are Christians out there who are totally self-righteous and in your face about it all the time, too, and I don't think that's okay, either. Then there's all this talk about blood and death and dead people raising from the dead and these high unattainable standards. It's tough stuff. I feel lucky that I was brought up in it and that I *CHOSE* to follow it. I also know there's lots of paradoxial stuff in the Bible. To be honest, it doesn't always make sense to me either, in that I'm supposed to be *living* those things.

Ummmm...does any of this make sense?

I'm a desit/buddhist/gnostic/taoist.  I find a lot of sense in the teachings of the Buddha and also in the Tao.  I believe in a supreme being or deity, but I don't buy into the Christian teachings regarding God.

I'm not a very good Buddhist sometimes, and I know it.  However, I have come a long way since I started following the dharma path, and I know that I'm making progress spiritually because I can feel it.

As for my beliefs....well, I believe in reincarnation.  I believe that some of us are old souls, and some of us are newer souls (Edgar Cayce wrote some interesting articles on old and new souls).  I think that us old souls (and you are one, Debbie, as am I....and LW, and Nic, and Angie) can recognize each other, and we can also recognize newer souls (who tend to migrate towards faith systems that have pretty clear instructions and dogmas attached to them.  Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is.  Old souls tend to be deists, more liberal about their beliefs). I honestly believe that death isn't the complete end, it's just a transition.  For example, my burial reflects my beliefs.  I'm not going to be embalmed, and I'm not having a wood coffin.  I'm going to be in a biodegradable cardboard box, and I'm going to have a tree planted above my grave.  That way, what's left of me will decay and will, in part, feed that tree.  My soul will be free and will go on - to where, I don't know - but my body (the cloak of molecules and cells that I wore when I lived on earth) will live on, just in a different form.  I'll be worm and plant food.  I'll be back in the life cycle again.  I think that's really very cool.

 

sorry if all that fantasy nerd stuff bored you (hehe).

I love fantasy nerd stuff! Maybe I connect with it in ways I hadn't realized.

I've also yet to mention it, but good luck to you and Brad with a new little one on the way.

Thank you very much.

some of the greatest thinkers ever (including many of the founders of this country) were deists of some form or another, which puts you in pretty good company

And thanks again!

Ummmm...does any of this make sense?

Yes it does Marcie and I am happy for you that you have a relationship with God. Everyone has their own journey, their own path. Like you said, we are unique. Perhaps some people are born "knowing" how they fit in the great scheme of things and maybe others will spend the majority of their life figuring it out.

I appreciate your kind comment. You are a credit to your faith.

Karen, I think you and my dad are cut from the same cloth. Your wishes for burial sound like my dad's except he thinks we should just toss him in the woods

I have indeed been called an old soul for as long as I can remember. I was very mature for my age and felt almost burdened by the things that I thought and worried about at an early age when all my girlfriends had on their minds were boys and clothes. Ignorance is bliss after all.

I am not afraid of death and hope that their is more to life afterward. I really love the here and now though. I get to enjoy great people such as yourself.

I am a Christian and I agree with my sister Marcie, there are so many people using the name of "Christian" to hide their own agendas that makes my stomach churn when I see what they do. A true Christian will be easy to identify by his/hers fruits, that is what Christ says, Christ sopke about how if you truly follow him, you will be despise, ridiculize and hated by this world, right now 99% of what TV shows as "Christian" is a big mockery of Christ teachings, it is sad, but as the book of Revelation warned us, there would be a big fallout in the end times, many will betray Christ and live a form of "godliness". many will profess to be Christians but their fruits are evil. Christ himself said because you are not cold or hot, but lukewarm I will spite you out of my mouth. Right now we are leaving in a generation of lukewarm Christians who use the church as a trampolin to make money lying to people and making a mockery of God, but they fail to realize that God is not mock, He sees everything and one day they will have to give an account of their wicked, evil deeds on this Earth. Until then, don't judge all the Christians by what many do, but look at the fruits and you will identify the true Christians.

Well...I'm a Christian. grew up Catholic and Lutheran and then my mom started going to Assemblies of God because she wanted more out of church...wanted to be more involved. I started attending and was freaked out...it really scared me for a while because it was something I wasnt used to. Now, I realize that I was feeling the presence of God. Not going to preach, per yer request...but in that church with all of those people singing and worshipping...I felt a connection I had never felt before. I started reading my Bible more often and felt like something was changing in me. I soon came to find that I could have a relationship with Christ and put my life in his hands. Since I have done that...I have been through ups and downs and been places I never thought I would be....but I am a much much stronger person because of that. When Im alone and I pray to God...I can feel His presence. I lay my problems at his feet and he takes care of them for me. The Bible offends me in a sense as well. It says something many other beliefs don't. It says that I am not perfect and I can't make it on my own and it is right. I need something other than myself. I have a big emptyness in my life. I can fill that up with anything I try..but that void is only filled by God. Since God filled that void....I have been complete (outside of the void he gave me for someone else in my life here on earth...aka....Marcie...who has perfeclty filled that spot). I have ups and downs...I know I dont live the best I can sometimes, but I try. For me....I know God exsists.

I wish i could explain it better....but I cant. It has been a totally life changing thing in my life and I would have it no other way.

I believe in G-d, but I don't believe in Christ (as the son of G-d).

I believe that the Bible was written by very wise leaders of the Jewish people and for me writing down good laws per se and being inspired by G-d to do so is the same thing. If something is right, I assume it is G-d's influence. There is no difference that I could tell.

I also believe that the laws of the Bible only apply to Jews. I do not believe that anybody else has to follow them. I do believe that there are some rules that apply to everyone, but there are very few such rules. I will not quote them here. And I will not attempt to analyse them.

I am glad that you also believe in G-d and I agree with you that He created the world and didn't interfere with it afterwards (this is what I understand Deism is about). As I said, I cannot tell a difference between a man writing down what is good and a man writing down the same text while being inspired by G-d. There is no way to measure that. For all I know G-d's indirect influence and no influence at all are physically the same thing.

Perhaps the laws I follow are idiotic. Perhaps they are not what G-d wanted. But I am sure they are not contrary to His will. And following them (to the extent I understand them, I do not follow laws I don't understand) gives me a sense of identity, and that is, perhaps, what matters.

I'm a Secular Humanist, a most misunderstood view of the world. We believe in the importance of doing good deeds in this world, of being good to people here and now. I don't know if there is or isn't a Creator, but in terms of what I do on a daily basis it is irrelevant. I do good deeds as I can, not for a reward in the Afterlife, but for the reward that good actions give in this life.

I am also Jewish, by birth and by culture. There is no no difficulty reconciling my Judaism and my secularism. Please see Link

The founders of Israel and the Zionist movement could be described as Jewish Secular Humanists, which is why Israel is not a Theocracy. The founders of the United States, Ben Franklin in particular, subscribed to a similiar philosophy. See Link

All religions have both a moral and a ritual component. I agree with with colleague Andrew Brehm that the Bible (Old Testament) was the thinking of the best minds of the Jewish people at the time. I would further state the New Testament is also a moral document, written by the best minds of that time. I just think that I can embrace the moral concepts without being compelled to follow the ritual.

Simply put, I believe that if there is a Creator, He or She cares more that we try to help each day than that we participate in rituals. And if there ISN'T a Creator, then the good deeds are there own reward.

have noticed in my experience that the most devoutly religious people tend to live the most miserable lives.

Oh, I dont know about that.  Seems Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are living pretty well!

Everyone knows I am Catholic.  And like you indicate, it is a belief since no religion can be proven.

Actually Religion is just an organized way of professing yoru belief in God, and so it is made by man, not God.  Faith is from God.

My beliefs are identical to yours, Jill. Organized religion, while a comfort to millions, doesn't comfort me. There may be a creator, and in some sense I hope there is/was, but if not, the good in the world is just that much greater.

Cheers,
Daiwa

I started attending and was freaked out...it really scared me for a while because it was something I wasnt used to. Now, I realize that I was feeling the presence of God.

What you just said is something that I have a huge problem with in organized religion.  Why did you have to be freaked out and scared before you then "realized" that it was the presence of "God"?  To somebody who is not Christian, that sounds like religious brain washing.  Why do you have to organize to find God?  Shouldn't that feeling have always been with you?

I *wish* that I could believe in the Christian God.  I wish that I could believe that there is something after death that I will remember.  It would be so comforting.  It would be great to think that there is a higher power that is looking over us and that my time on Earth is just the beginning.  But, I can't believe that.  I have been put under for operations too many times and know what it's like for your thoughts to stop.  It's nothing.  Nothing at all.  Just empty time.  And, I'm OK with that.  It makes me enjoy every day as much as I can.  It makes me want to enrich other peoples lives.  It makes me embrace my family and take life by the horns.

I don't think that I would be the same person that I am if I was Christian.  I would have a different view, and I would focus on "life" after death.  And, I would simply brush every thing off as "gods will" as I hear so many Christians do.  Instead, I take full accountability for all my actions and all my thoughts.  I know that the only force that "makes" me be me, is me.  I live an ethical life, and I do what I can to help others and Mother Earth, but I don't do anything for the pure reason that it's the "good Christian" thing to do.  I am empowered by myself, not "God".  Heaven and Hell are both on Earth, and once I die, I'm nothing but worm food and compost.  And, I'm totally cool with that.

I believe in God. I don't always think it's worthy of being worshipped - sometimes its sick sense of humour is a bit too much - but in general I'd rather believe than be an atheist and think that just because it's not a nice guy, consistent or even worth worshipping it doesn't exist - although of course one could attribute with ease everything I call divinity to simple random chance.

In which case I suppose that the manifestation of my belief is a fervent faith in random chance, which is neither here nor there.

I think that us old souls (and you are one, Debbie, as am I....and LW, and Nic, and Angie) can recognize each other, and we can also recognize newer souls (who tend to migrate towards faith systems that have pretty clear instructions and dogmas attached to them. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is. Old souls tend to be deists, more liberal about their beliefs).

I think that you are right with that.  I have met a lot of "old souls".  My husband is one.  He has abilities that he can't explain.  He just knows things without being taught.  I, to a degree, am the same.  I have odd artistic abilities that I was born with, and I find certain things calming that have no relevance in my life. 

I could believe in reincarnation.  After all, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so if a "soul" is energy (there is an "if" there) then it would make sense that it would transfer.  I don't believe in reincarnation in the way that you could remember a past life, or that you "live" on, but rather a transfer of energy.  I guess the closest thing to a "religion" that I can believe in is the Over Soul.  When people ask me what I believe in, I say: "I'm a Buddhist with a Transcendental Twist".  It's the closest explanation that I can come up with right now.  But, at some point, I may be enlightened to something else, so I keep my mind open.

What you just said is something that I have a huge problem with in organized religion. Why did you have to be freaked out and scared before you then "realized" that it was the presence of "God"? To somebody who is not Christian, that sounds like religious brain washing. Why do you have to organize to find God? Shouldn't that feeling have always been with you?

No. It depends on how you were raised. In my Catholic life...I was never told I could have a relationship with God. I never was told to pray to God...but to pray to him and Mary and any other saint that the Church deemed to be a saint. I never experienced God, nor knew I could be close to him and put my faith and life in his hands. God didn't freak me out...but the experience itself did. I had never felt the presence of God before. I never felt a connection to God. When I went there, people werent just singing...but they were praising and worshiping...something I had never seen before. The pastor would call people up to the altar so he and his deacons could pray with them or so that the church could pray with them. There is a slight difference between a moment of Silence in the Catholic church, and 400-1000 members of a congregation praying over a person / family. I have often said that....now that I look back at where I was when I attended the Catholic church....my life wasn't going anywhere. I wasnt really following God...just sort of doing things out of a fear...going to church once a week, doing confessions to a priest, praying to God, Mary, and x number of saints, giving exactly 10%...etc. My relationship with God was non-existant and I would not have gone to Heaven if I had stayed on that path. My life isnt driven by whether or not I go to heaven or hell...but it is driven my desire for Christ in my life. If I follow Him, I don't need to worry about death or what happens afterwards.

I didnt all of a sudden realize...because it was something that I wasn't used to...pentacostal churches are very different from mainstream catholic masses. People didn't seem like they were obligated to come...they would actually come to praise and worship with friends and family 2-3 times a week for the various services. They had missions trips, building churches and schools and you could feel that there was something very powerful moving these people...a passion, love, and life changing relationship with Christ that I had never even remotely thought was possible. I was scared because I was experiencing something that I had never experienced before. I thought these happy dancing people, singing, hugging each other and praying for each othere were on something. Didn't think it could be God...didn't think a life with God could be that way.

You are right. Religion is a personal thing and so many people seem to spout so much crappy philosophy about it.

There is a slight difference between a moment of Silence in the Catholic church, and 400-1000 members of a congregation praying over a person / family.

How do you know that what you were feeling wasn't the unity of mankind, and not "God"?  How do you know that you weren't feeling the Over Soul? 

Being that you have always been raised Christian and followed Christianity, it is very doubtful that you will be able to *truly* stand on the outside and look in to see what I am saying.

How do you know that you weren't feeling the Over Soul?

Over soul?  New term.  Can you elaborate some?

Over soul? New term. Can you elaborate some?

It's the basis of Transcendentalism.  Here's a link with some very basic info: http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/chap4/4intro.html

It's the basis of Transcendentalism. Here's a link with some very basic info: http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/chap4/4intro.html[/quote]

AH!  Thank you.  It is the Force!

Seriously, thanks for the education.

How do you know that what you were feeling wasn't the unity of mankind, and not "God"? How do you know that you weren't feeling the Over Soul?

Lol...because I was there, I experienced it...and continue to experience it. Im not looking for whatever fits me...for something that satisfies some inner desire of what I think I need to have to complete me. On here, we have seen many examples of what people believe. I didn't go looking for religion or Christianity or anything. I didn't search for something that I wanted so that I could finally justify my life and my beliefs. God called me and showed me I was empty without him. I have been filled up with his spirit inside me.

There is no unity of mankind...if anything..it is dwindling almost more and more. Mankind continuously tries to squander itself and get what it wants..quashing any thing that holds a value to people. Religion? Hide it, ban it, make it illegal. Morals? Not if it doesnt fit into the culture. Mankind wants what it wants and is willing to step over anyone or do anything it can in order to get what it wants.

"People say that everything happens for a reason and only God knows the greater purpose. I don't buy that either. Sometimes terrible things happen to wonderful people and there is no reason."

Sometimes people experience life in different ways, good or bad, and this leads them to something even better. Even if what happened to them was bad, perhaps it is a wake up call. No, no one needs to have something bad or earth shattering happen to them, however, sometimes, whether some like to admit it or not, there's a greater force at play. That greater force could be God or any of those belief system you have.

I like to think that all these different beliefs lead to one God. Because if we didn't all believe in something, even if you don't believe or acknowledge that it is Him, where would you be?

Reply By: Andrew J. BrehmPosted: Friday, January 20, 2006I believe in G-d, but I don't believe in Christ (as the son of G-d).

Andrew, why do you not spell the word out - God? Just curious. Also, out of respectful curiosity, how can you believe in God but not in Christ?
Wasn't it through Christ that we were all saved?

I also believe that the laws of the Bible only apply to Jews

Why? Again, my curiosity as to how you arrive at this.


Jill, as you probably already know, I am Christian by faith and beliefs. I do understand your spirituality and I'm glad you know that which you believe in and what you are by your own faith.

Christianity is a faith that has been and is still so misunderstood by many people; even those who believe. I won't ever say I know everything about it. I only know what I've learned and what I do practise in my own life. And this faith that I know is what I try to live and teach to my children and anyone else who wants to know. I guess in a sense I live my life literally as I speak and that's how I practise my faith. There's no frills and no blinders attach to my way of living and thinking about God.

I live an ethical life, and I do what I can to help others and Mother Earth, but I don't do anything for the pure reason that it's the "good Christian" thing to do. I am empowered by myself, not "God". Heaven and Hell are both on Earth, and once I die, I'm nothing but worm food and compost. And, I'm totally cool with that.

That's me too. 

I'm an atheist, and I try to live my life to the "moral code" of maximizing good and minimizing harm. Basically, don't be a jerk if you can't help it. And there isn't anything I really worship, and what I value most is people, not god(s).