I think all these attempts to “prove” the Bible or any part of Christian faith by appealing to worldly matters are futile, and will only tire the person out and cause friction. (Not that it doesn’t make for an interesting discussion, mind.) KFC said on the other thread that “the whole Christian way is a matter of the heart.” I completely agree with this, but KFC, you’re carrying on as if it’s not a matter of the heart, but rather a matter of proving one’s belief to others until others agree or change their mind. This won’t happen because we all have different points of view. Finding inner peace is far more important than finding appreciation and agreement from others. I personally believe that inner peace is a natural by-product of getting closer to self-discovery and enlightenment, simply due to the nature of life and ultimate reality. Doubts and lack of inner peace signify room for spiritual growth, in my view.

(but in the meantime we love the drama, so please feel free to tell me where to go if I sound like a do-goody twat)

This "teacher" said he was not only the "son" of God.

The original Hebrew says "A son of God." Just one example of how the scriptures were edited to say what some people wanted them to say.

the Utankans?

I think you mean the Mintakans. The episode of TNG "Who Watches the Watchers?" It's my favorite episode of all the Star Trek shows.

As for the flood, in ancient times, people weren't able to travel very far, so to them, the "world" was only what they could see.

I think you mean the Mintakans. The episode of TNG "Who Watches the Watchers?" It's my favorite episode of all the Star Trek shows.

Yes.  I am reading Into the West and transposed some letters!

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

This is one of my favorite quotes to (possibly)explain the concept of God. I also heard it as: "Any advanced civilization would appear to be gods to a primitive civilization." It's one of the ideas in that Star Trek episode.

I think all these attempts to “prove” the Bible or any part of Christian faith by appealing to worldly matters are futile, and will only tire the person out and cause friction. (Not that it doesn’t make for an interesting discussion, mind.) KFC said on the other thread that “the whole Christian way is a matter of the heart.” I completely agree with this, but KFC, you’re carrying on as if it’s not a matter of the heart, but rather a matter of proving one’s belief to others until others agree or change their mind.

I couldn't agree more Andy (including the part about it making interesting discussion). That is why I started the other thread about the bible. But I always discuss matters of religion in respect to opinion and belief rather than right and wrong because it is a matter of heart and a passionate one at that.

The original Hebrew says "A son of God." Just one example of how the scriptures were edited to say what some people wanted them to say.

What scripture are you quoting? I use the Hebrew.

I completely agree with this, but KFC, you’re carrying on as if it’s not a matter of the heart, but rather a matter of proving one’s belief to others until others agree or change their mind.

I don't think anymore than anyone else. Or if you think that way....maybe it's because I'm more convinced of this than you are of your belief? Not sure. But I am absoultely convinced....because I have seen God and God at work not only in my life but in the lives of many others.

It's sort of like the disciples when they told Thomas...we have seen the Lord. He didn't believe them until he met face to face with God himself. Before that the woman who were the first to see Christ and the empty tomb ran to tell the others. What was their reaction? Fables. These worman are telling tall tales. And I've said countless times....I'm not trying to convince only give what I see. I'm a witness just giving you what I've seen and heard. That's it.

On the Y chromosome Jill I have to get back with you. My son is a Christian Scientist....I'll ask him about it.

But I do know if you take the line of Seth and Compare to the line of Cain...you see quite a story unfold.

On the Y chromosome Jill I have to get back with you. My son is a Christian Scientist....I'll ask him about it.

No offense, but the fact that Christian precedes Scientist in you son's title leads me to believe he won't have an unbiased take on the matter.  You could do some online searching.  Just Google Y chromosome.

Here's a good, short explaination:

http://www.leicester.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/project.html

In short, after studying genetics and reading extensively on the subject, the Y chromosome can have minor mutations over generations but retains a basic DNA marker.  If all men descended from Noah and his sons (who all have the same Y chromosome), all men today would have that same DNA marker.  It has been proven they don't.

I'm not trying to convince only give what I see. I'm a witness just giving you what I've seen and heard. That's it.

You have been saying that Science has not disproved anything in the bible.  You tried to use the "proof" of the ark as an example (then asked JillUser why she didn't respond to your "proof"), then, you yourself, fell quiet when I showed the "proof" that you speak of.

Then you can't be bothered to look into the Y chromosome issues (except saying that you will ask your "Christian Scientist" son about it).

If you want to believe the bible, that is great.  that is where your spiritual path has ended, and there is nothing wrong with that.  But, don't try to "prove" things to other people who have been seeking out answers to questions left open in the bible.  Science *has* disproved parts of the bible.  That doesn't mean that the bible doesn't have truth to it, it just may mean that you have to look at it from a different view to see what it really is.

I am agnostic because I don't believe that the bible is the book of god.  I do, however, believe that it holds some great teaching and is a stretch of path in my journey to enlightenment.  I may never find the "truth" in my life, but I am not closing my eyes, either.  Christianity leaves me with more questions than it answers, so it is definitely not the end of my journey.

I don't think anymore than anyone else. Or if you think that way....maybe it's because I'm more convinced of this than you are of your belief? Not sure. But I am absoultely convinced....because I have seen God and God at work not only in my life but in the lives of many others.

I’m not trying to attack you KFC, and I don’t doubt your experience of God at all. It so happens that I completely agree with your deeper Christian convictions. The issue at hand is your stringent, and often stifling connection to the Bible. You didn’t respond to the point I was trying to make on the other post, because you missed the Amazon review that I’d mentioned. I’ll cut and paste it here, because it would be nice to hear your open and honest views regarding the verses highlighted. (Remember my original challenge to you was: How would you comfort this reviewer, whilst retaining your view that the Bible is the infallible word of God?)

You can excuse the emotive language of the reviewer, because the real point at hand is the Biblical verses, which ignite the reviewers emotive response in the first place. Here’s the review in full, which includes quotes from the book itself. (The author is called Dan Barker; and the book being reviewed is called 'Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist'. The final paragraph is the most significant) . . .


“Dan Barker, a man not afraid use his mind, tells us of his transition -out of the mental confounds of Christianity -into the nationally acclaimed freethinker he is today.

Barker says "It is interesting to read the Bible now, with new `eyesight' so to speak. I used to read all the ugly parts of the Bible, but for some reason they were invisible, even beautiful. I was taught that God was perfect, loving and righteous -so there could be no question in my mind of his character. Any apparent contradictions or ugliness could be ignored in the faith of the `mystery' of Gods ways. I'm glad those days are over."

In chapter 29 [Dear Believer], Dan wonderfully sums up the vary essence of Christianity and it's `merciful' God. Barker writes >>

"Dear Believer, You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful... The Biblical god is a macho male warrior. Although he said "Thou shall not kill", he ordered death for all in opposition (Exodus 32:27), wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punished offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5); ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), is partial to one race of people; encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); judged women inferior to men; is the sadist who created a hell to torture all unbelievers; created evil (Isaiah 45:7)... sent bears to devour forty-two children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10) Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?...Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity --but leave me out of it."

KFC, how do these Biblical verses, and the reviewers views, fit in with your views that the Bible is infallible, and that we cannot afford any breathing space from extreme scriptural fundamentalism? I'm not trying to catch you out here babe, I'm just honestly interested to hear your views.

I'm getting baraged with a ton of questions and forgive me if I can't answer everyone but I'm trying. I work in the CPA business and as you know it's tax season...it gets crazy and I can't be studying right now.

Back to Jill and the chromosome thing. You may discount my son because of the "Christian view" but he was selected by Tulane out of 8000 applicants and they are not a Christian University. He is studying Neuro Science for his Ph.D and is very familiar with genetics.

He said to tell you two words.....Genetic Recombination.

There is such a thing called "jumping genes" which is Transposons...(sp?). It's where chromosomes jump from one to another and how you get genetic mixing. It allows for variation and shuffling of the chomosomes. He got into sickle cell and ....lost me. He said anyone that knows anything about science would not use what you used Jill for backing up your view. There are things you could use he said but this wouldn't be one...gets discounted very easily if you know anything about science....and I don't.

He said you cannot go back to trace this to Noah...so you're right there. The DNA is messed up he said. He also said that we only use a small percentage of our genes and not the majority.

He also said....so I take back what I said earlier....that Lucy was false. Basically what happened is that bones were put together from a large area of dug up bones to make a half human half ape being. I shouldn't have mentioned this because it was vague in my memory and I'm not science minded to boot. My son did not inherit my genes in this area...!!

Andy

Boy I wouldn't want to follow that type of God either. But this is not the God I follow. Yes ugly things did happen and God did call for the deaths of the rebellious. He said rebellion was as the sin of witchcraft. But he's taking things way out of context here. I will get back to you on each point as soon as I can. God is all thru scripture the God of second chances. When you read in context God is constantly warning and giving them chance after chance. And the very things in there show that scripture is true because if you are trying to make yourself look good....you take out the bad parts.

Like Thomas....the very first disciple didn't believe. Peter....a giant of the Faith started out denying Christ. Paul another giant was murdering Christians. Then he stopped and he wasn't believed at first. He was anti-Christian.

The resurrection appearances were made to the women first. The men didn't believe them because women's testimony meant nothing. Christ was always elevating women. A woman was fashioned out of the side of Adam...not his toe....and not his head. His side!! God made it clear they were to be equal. But he had different roles for them. Men cannot bear children. In that case....women are greater than men.

I could go on and on. Abraham, Noah, David. All screwed up. All this to show they were human but still great men of God. David was called a man after God's own heart. Why? Because after he committed some heinous crimes he went to God on his face. God still held him accountable (death of his son etc) but forgave him. Rahab, a prostitute is in the lineage of Christ...go figure. God is all loving and forgiving. Go figure. That's not what this guy wants to tell you tho. He has an agenda. He's on the other side. Like I said....obstacles.

I think that guy SC is also an obstacle...a diversion to get people not to go to God. We all will be held accountable...by our words we will be justified and by our words we will be condemned.

Who were the first man and woman created by God?

Must not have seen this LW.

Adam and Eve.

Who was the character clearly described (no matter what translation you use) as the "son of God" other than Jesus Christ?

I'm not understanding this question. There are the "sons" of God mentioned in Genesis. This is thought to be the line of Seth. But would have to have a reference before I could answer this. I'm thinking Daniel may have a reference also but not sure if that's what you mean?

it never ceases to amaze me how many Christians do NOT know them, they are easily found in the Bible

I agree. There is so much bible illiteracy it's not funny. Especially in this country when every home had a bible as it's sole book and was also the tool for learning how to read and write. I think it's sad when I see Jay Leno out on the street asking easy bible 101 questions and the answers are so out there.

I'm sorry I missed you the first time. Because I love to answer questions.....it's the teacher in me!!

Science *has* disproved parts of the bible.

Can you give me specifics. I know of none. And I'm not trying to be smart. I just have never heard of any. Don't you think this would be "big" news?

Then you can't be bothered to look into the Y chromosome issues (except saying that you will ask your "Christian Scientist" son about it).

First of all I think I answered that in #115 and second....asking my son is looking into it. Not everyone has a friend of family member that "Really" knows what they are talking about. He's a scientist. He's a researcher. He's a lab rat. He lives there. He eats, breathes and talks this stuff. He is now studying epilepsy and today is giving epilepsy to mice. To me he is much better than a book. I can't help it if you don't like my source.

I am agnostic because I don't believe that the bible is the book of god.

To say you don't "belive" doesn't make it not the book of God. It only says that you don't believe it. I may say I don't believe Japan exists. It doesn't make it so. I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

Christianity leaves me with more questions than it answers, so it is definitely not the end of my journey

I'm glad you are still on your journey. I am also. I actually get angry when I think of all the "men of God" out there that are not answering questions for people like you. I see alot of abuse in the clergy, regardless of group...they are not doing their jobs. I believe they will answer to God for this. But on the other hand there are some out there....but it will take a search to find one.

I'm not sure where you are getting your answers from, but if I wanted to know about Texas....I'd ask someone that's been there. I wouldn't ask a Canadian. If you have any questions about Christianity you need to ask someone who loves God and his word like I do. Not some nominal or said faith only Christian.

God did call for the deaths of the rebellious.

Wasn't Jesus rebellious?

I may say I don't believe Japan exists. It doesn't make it so. I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

You've seen pictures of Japan, haven't you? You've seen pictures of Japanese people, haven't you? Maybe you've seen some in person. I've never seen pictures of heaven or hell; have you? I've never seen angels or demons; have you?

BTW, "teacher", this

I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

should be one sentence. I think it's sad when teachers make errors in English.

should be one sentence. I think it's sad when teachers make errors in English

Actually, it is fine the way she wrote it. Both sentences have a noun and a verb and each can stand alone. So what are you talking about?

She is a Bible teacher by the way. So stop being so disrespectful. She never claimed to have all the answers. But she has taken the time to share what she knows.

I think its "sad" when people can't debate topics without getting catty.

I think its "sad" when people can't debate topics without getting catty.

Thanks Tova. I'm not an English Teacher. I think when one loses an argument they feel they must attack the person.

You've seen pictures of Japan, haven't you?

You are so missing the point.

I've never seen angels or demons; have you?

Every day. They are clothed in human flesh. How's that for English?

You've seen pictures of Japanese people, haven't you? Maybe you've seen some in person. I've never seen pictures of heaven or hell; have you?

Ok think about this. I've seen pictures of Japenese people. I've seen pictures of Japan. I've seen pictures of Heaven and Hell. So what? I should believe it because I've seen pictures?

So going with your logic, you must also believe in Heaven and Hell since I'm quite sure you've seen the pics. If I draw you a picture of Jesus and you see it, then you have to believe in him as well. Right?

He said to tell you two words.....Genetic Recombination. There is such a thing called "jumping genes" which is Transposons...(sp?). It's where chromosomes jump from one to another and how you get genetic mixing.

I am going at this one one more time and then I'm done. I do my own homework before I claim things KFC. I don't rely on the word of others. My husband told me what he thought on the matter and I could have just said "My genius husband said_______" and use that as my arguement but I preferred to look into things myself.

KFC, if you or your son really looked at what genetic recombination really is you would not have used that as an arguement. "Jumping genes" in genetic recombination occur only between homologous genetic material. There is no X chromosome marker that is homologous with a Y chromosome marker that would allow "jumping" that would result in the Y chromosome change required to make a difference in the generations between Noah and the men of our century.

He said anyone that knows anything about science would not use what you used Jill for backing up your view.

Sounds like your son has a knack for unsubstantiated condescension like you. I'm not even sure you realize that you sound arrogant, rude and condescending. You seem like a kind person but I really don't have the energy for that kind of comment on this blog anymore. Like I said before, perhaps you should start your own thread and discuss whatever you want in whatever manner you like.

Andy,

Got answers for your scriptures...but maybe I should ask Jill first. This is the no no thread for scriptures. She might get angry with me. I think you asked me on the wrong site. I'm trying to be "good" here. I'm up to my neck here in hot water as it is. I need an ark about now.

So going with your logic, you must also believe in Heaven and Hell since I'm quite sure you've seen the pics. If I draw you a picture of Jesus and you see it, then you have to believe in him as well. Right?

Um, no. You can fly to Japan, touch it, see it, experience it then go back home. I sure can't say the same about Heaven or Hell. I've seen pictures of aliens but I can't go see one for myself. I can draw a picture of a 4 eyed monster but that doesn't mean I believe it existed or one step further that it is my saviour.

If your faith is so strong KFC, just leave it at the fact that you know it in your heart to be true. Noone could debate that. You lack debating skills when it comes to facts. You can claim anything you want about your son and I don't even think you are lying but he still isn't a source that I can check into. I can read scientific publishers that have been in a specific field for decades and use them as a reference that others can check out for themselves.

He also said....so I take back what I said earlier....that Lucy was false. Basically what happened is that bones were put together from a large area of dug up bones to make a half human half ape being.

Your Scientist son lost credibility there. Lucy was not false. He is referring to Piltdown Man. That's what you get when you just trust what people think they know without looking into it for yourself.

I think you are done on this thread. You established what your religious beliefs are. If you want to defend the Bible all you want, you can go to my other thread that is featured on the home page.

Your Scientist son lost credibility there. Lucy was not false. He is referring to Piltdown Man.

No...he's talking about Lucy.
You want facts? Here ya go.

Lucy’ isn’t the ‘Missing Link’!

‘Lucy’ is the popular name given to the famous fossil skeleton found in 1974 in Ethiopia by American anthropologist Donald Johanson. To many people, Lucy is regarded as a certain link between ape-like creatures and man—thus supposedly proving evolution. But is Lucy really a pre-human ancestor?

According to Richard Leakey, who along with Johanson is probably the best-known fossil-anthropologist in the world, Lucy’s skull is so incomplete that most of it is ‘imagination made of plaster of paris’.1 Leakey even said in 1983 that no firm conclusion could be drawn about what species Lucy belonged to.

In reinforcement of the fact that Lucy is not a creature ‘in between’ ape and man, Dr Charles Oxnard, Professor of Anatomy and Human Biology at the University of Western Australia, said in 1987 of the australopithecines (the group to which Lucy is said to have belonged):

‘The various australopithecines are, indeed, more different from both African apes and humans in most features than these latter are from each other. Part of the basis of this acceptance has been the fact that even opposing investigators have found these large differences as they too, used techniques and research designs that were less biased by prior notions as to what the fossils might have been’.

Link

And Specific Published Scientific Journals on The Y Chromosome Recombination? Here ya go.

On this look at the chart specifically on Page 2. It lists a number of different species where transposons are present on the Y Chromosome"
Link

after pulling up 102,000 scholarly journal articles on transposons in the Y Chromosomes here's one and an excerpt.
Link

The Y chromosome, a sex chromosome that is specific to the human male, has posed a particular challenge to researchers attempting to decode its sequence. It contains an extraordinary abundance of repetitive elements, including transposons and tandem arrays of satellite sequences. (first sentence in the 3rd paragraph)


You say that there are no homologous sequences or recombination between X and Y chromosomes but this article says differently.

The majority of the human Y does not normally recombine with the X chromosome; however, there are two limited regions of sequence identity with the X that permit pairing and recombination during normal male meiosis.

Link

and
Link

Recombination between X and Y chromosomes is one way the gene pool is naturally shuffled

I rest my case.

Got answers for your scriptures...but maybe I should ask Jill first. This is the no no thread for scriptures.

I think you are done on this thread. You established what your religious beliefs are. If you want to defend the Bible all you want, you can go to my other thread that is featured on the home page.

Apologies for using the wrong thread. Use Jill’s other article, as I’d be interested to hear your reply. You can give it a few days if you’re up to your neck, as there’s no rush.

People invariably come out the other end of these discussions with the same views as before, as we all seem to reach a certain ‘point’ of view in one particular lifetime. After the age of about 30, we don’t usually change view until the next lifetime, (at least not at a ‘heart’ level, if you see what I mean). You’ve certainly reached a place of integrity and solidity KFC in your views, at least at a heart level, and I honestly find that a beautiful and impressive thing. Peace with our model of the world is what we're all aiming for, and anyone who retains complete integrity and a sense of peace with their views has already 'won' in debates like this, in my opinion. (This principle shows the difference between purely intellectual debates and debates about spirituality and personal matters, incidentally. It's true that these two areas seem to have crossed over at times in this discussion, which possibly has caused the friction, but the heart-level is all that counts in my view. Anyway, with this said I don't think this is really a debate, just an open discussion, but this is how I see things anyway.)

You’ve certainly reached a place of integrity and solidity KFC in your views

This goes for everyone, of course. Whatever our views, and whatever we express here on JU, then as long as we’re being true to ourself, we’re being true to God (even if we don't believe in God!). It’s ‘where we’re at’, in context with our soul’s stage of growth, and we can't really do much about it, (just as we can't do much about our physical age). I believe that from God’s point of view, in Heaven, everyone is “perfect” and everyone’s view is “right”. It can’t be otherwise from a ‘heart-level’, and I believe that this is the meaning of divine unconditional love.

I’ve just read the following from Joseph Benner’s book, ‘The Way to the Kingdom’, and I thought it was fantastic and I wanted to share it:


“The Kingdom of Heaven is not a fictional world. In fact, this material world is the illusionary one. The Kingdom of God is the world of Truth – the world of reality, love and perfection. Jesus said, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.” The more we practice seeing perfection instead of imperfection, the sooner we can experience the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. The world of criticism, personal shortcomings, and ego-standards will disappear and only the world of reality will appear. We will learn how to rise above the world in which personal limitations, criticism, and faults are seen. We will live in a world in which man does not think and act according to standards of the ego, but according to the principle of Truth.

As we learn to abide in Christ’s Spirit, which means in His Love, and we let His Love abide in and direct us in all our ways, in very truth is the Father – the Source of all things, of life itself – glorified, and we are caused to bear much fruit.

. . . How would you like to live in a world where people lived above personal consciousness? Would it not be a heavenly world? Yes, it would be an actual living in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.”


I believe that here, Benner describes the future of mankind’s evolution. The Kingdom of God will come to earth, but maybe in a different form to how some people might expect. I'm sure many of the Bible's central messages make better sense when interpreted through Spiritual eyes, rather than through worldly eyes.