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The Skin Patch Debate

The Skin Patch Debate

There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
40,075 views 170 replies
Reply #77 Top
OK...let's stop...there's 24 of them...

This is an important topic.
It's not every day that people get to perhaps determine exactly what direction the future of [one part of] skinning takes.

This is a perfect opportunity to discuss/debate options, between the product creator and the skinners themselves.
Both have vested interests in a successful resolution/determination.

So let's keep it strictly 'on-topic'....
Reply #78 Top
My opinion about this idea is that with all those new skins coming out everyday, there is no need to make things more complicated.
So many skins, so many fresh ideas.
I am wondering who is going to make those updates for the skin that belongs to someone else? If someone is good enough he is going to make his own skins, not updates.

In the other hand, imagine someone to work hard for an update and in the end the author of the original skin to refuse the final update for any reason or imagine the other side, which is that some good authors the will be in a very difficult position if they find out that the update is ugly.
I believe in the spirit of collaboration, but do you think that we are ready for that? Allow me to doubt about it.

Just my 2 cents
Reply #79 Top
As a someone who has created their own skins and also updated someone elses skin (ThredzWB by dangeruss) I have to say I think skin patching is a great idea. As long as it is regulated and that skinners opt into it. I would welcome the work someone would put in updating my skins to the latest features. I just haven't got the time to do it myself. Also you get bored of looking at the same skinall the time. Skinning can be an exhausting process that by the end of it you just don't feel like doing any more for a while.

As to the statement that 'if someone is good enough he won't update other peoples skins' I have to just laugh out loud at that.

What is someone who is porting a skin to another app doing other than updating that skin that belongs to someone else? It's the same concept. Just in the same app instead of different apps. Look at dangeruss. He has done some great ports. But I wouldn't say he is 'not good enough' to be a skinner. He's one of the best skinners there is. Many skins are just too good to be allowed to fade into obscurity simply because the app has moved on and added a ton of new stuff the skin doesn't support. Personally I won't use a WB skin that doesn't have XP support. It just looks so ugly.

Having the ability for WB to apply skin parts instead of having to create a full new skin and upload it would also be great.

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Reply #80 Top
I very much like the idea of skin patches. I do agree that individual authors have the right to refuse a patch, but if the author is no longer around, I think wincustomize people should arbitrate. I love some of the older WB skins (like Yeech) but I do not have the time or skill to update them myself.
Reply #81 Top
As I posted before, I was in favour of the idea as long as a patch is not directly linked to a specific skin.
OR, if a skin uses the same style to match a specific skin, then permission is required from the original author. No opt-in or out. Permission required, period, for all patches that uses the style that matches a specific skin.

Then someone mentionned leaching.

Then it made me think some more.
I DO NOT want to see an army or people running to update Adni or Treetog's skin just to see their download count increase.

I think that the way I proposed it kinda limits the leaching a bit, since if the patches are generic enough, they can match many skins from different authors. And if the skin matches a specific skin (where leaching could be a danger), then since permission from the original author is required, one could always put a stop to it if he sees people are just after getting themselves free downloads off his back.
But it's always delicate for an author to tell somebody no if his patch is too ugly.

I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I tend to think like Adni. There are many many skins to choose from, we don't need to bring back the old ones. Let them die, they are gone.
Reply #82 Top
speaking of permissions: Paxx, did you ever get permission from Misery for your Nijikon Fetchi for WB? it is plain to see that it derives from his wallpaper. you are not even giving him credit in the comments, just to Boxxi, while Misery was the one that started it all.
this is not meant to attack you, but "permissions" seem to have such a high value for you that do not even like others to give those permissions for skin patching in advance.

Frogboy: if you would like to hear my advice: start this program with personally asking some skinners. i am pretty sure some of them will like the idea (especially the ones that just don´t have the time to do it themselves). you are thinking about the success of your product, i am just thinking that some skins are just "classics" and don´t deserve to die out, even if i don´t use WindowBlinds, but some things just can´t be done in msstyles.
Reply #83 Top
moshi: when I made it, I only knew BoXXi's DX theme. I wasn't aware that Misery made the wallpaper. When I realised it, my skin was already old and getting next to no downloads, so I just let it die.
Permission can be tricky when it's a chain like that. Sorry.
Reply #84 Top
moshi....Wilhelm isn't the world's greatest correspondent...and dissappeared for quite a while back then, making 'connectivity' even more obscure/difficult.
He resurfaced, I found, through being chased up by Grimspoon, and subsequently I managed to catch up with him when doing my LS theme.
At that time paxx's WB skin was already long forgotten, but I did mention BoXXi's work.
He was fine with both.
Since then, lost him again, so cannot upload my Nijikon Fetchi WinAMP skin....[sigh].

Now and then the 'ball' can be dropped....but it's never intentional, at least with responsible skinners it's not 'intentional'...and I'd include paxx in that....

BTW....if you manage to catch up to Wilhelm/Misery/Deaddreamer....let him know I'm still 'anticipating' a reply...
Reply #85 Top
dang...

DeadDreamer site has always rocked and misery it phenom....

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Reply #86 Top
Jafo, have you looked at version 10 and the *rip or inspire* page?

Kinda makes me get one of those hmmm whispers running around in the back ground.
It also builds upon the opt-in solution too without a doubt. As a matter of fact seeing what he puts into his art and then seeing people just take it like that as if they have some knspoken right is bothersome to say the least.

So I can see where people get touchy about the issues presented in this thread and the community at large even beyond WinC. But even so, it seems to prove there is a difference with opt-in, a complete difference between ripped or inspired.

If this does go through an indicator should be with the info for downloads which the artist can change as they like at any given moment. Say a couple of contrasting colors, if the dot is red, it is not one that is opted-in, if green it is, and it could also be a part of the description, a hidden field gets added when the artist does opt-in for the skin and they can put what restrictions or allowences they decide upon and then save. So the person who see's the green dot clicks or mouses over and a window slides out with the opt-in info?

dunno...

about the ones who have not been seen for some time, maybe a few could work on getting word out and word of mouth gets to them it might prompt them to get in contact?

rambling again, head doing 900mph with flat spots on the rear tires

gonna go lurky again


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Reply #87 Top
I need a script that runs my spell and grammatic checker auto when I hit submit.

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Reply #88 Top
I think that updating skins is a great idea.
There are many many skins that I would personally love to use but they just don't work correctly in XP.
I agree with Frogboy
Reply #90 Top
No one is saying that older skins don't need updating. But we don't allow people to update, or port these older skins without written permission from the author, and I can't see how this is any different.

I've been waiting for permission, for over a month, to use some graphics in a HvD theme. Should I just go ahead, simply because I haven't heard from the author? I think not.............
Reply #92 Top
Hi pjpowell
It is not polite to laugh out loud with other people statements, but it is normal and respectful to have your own opinion.

The statement wasn't talking about ports, you have missed the point of the statement, it is just you interpretation.
Let me remind you that the best ones "just don't have the time" or the have their own projects and ideas, so who is going to make those updates?
Try to see it detached and in general, forgetting the few exceptions that you know and try to remember that there is no rule without exceptions.
Reply #93 Top
*poink* ouch!,

Darn, I just dropped my can "o" worms.
Reply #94 Top
adni18 yep what you said!

I've been reading it and still see that the positives are greater than the negatives on more than a few levels, learning being one of those...

example: wallpapers, people submit them and they are taken for consideration, I do not know if a point system is in use or what have you. But having a wall refused, for me would not be the end of the world, it would prompt me to attempt again and again, building upon my skills set the whole time and picking techniques and points from others along the way so I could evolve into the best I could be for the given moment...

The same reasoning would be applied to myself and the system for patches and updates. It would be a learning venture, with the value added feature of those who are skilled greater than I to impart some of what they know even if not directly intended...



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Reply #95 Top
We don't want to start moderating the patches to see if they do justice to the original. Wallpapers are the only thing we look at for quality. Sometimes the logons too, cause they are much like wallpapers.

I think Koasati said it right: permission is needed for any other port, so why would ths be different. If the original skinner refuses or isn't around, then bury the skin and move on.
Reply #96 Top
I can and do fully agree with the overload with the WinC operations team doing it, but wouldn't the author want to *see* just what a person was going to post? Or would it be blind trust given with a nod of go ahead as you will?

How does the permission for doing a port work?

mmm, I have to look and see if this info is on the site or on the web...

my ignorance is showing profusely


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Reply #97 Top
Hi IPlural

Can you explain to me the reason why someone must work a lot for an update and in the end to find him self in the position that the author of the original skin will refuse the update for some reasons and not make his own skin with no moderation at all. In both cases it would be a learning venture.
Can you explain that to me?
Reply #98 Top
IPlural: How does the permission for doing a port work?

Quite simple:
I want to make a port of a wonderfull skin by Adni, so I send him an Email:

==================
To: Adni
From: Paxx
Subject: Permission request

Hi Adni,
I love you XYZ skin for Windowblinds and would love to make a matching Winamp skin.
Do you give me permission to make it and distribute it, with full credits given to you of course.

==================

To: Paxx
From: Adni
Subject RE: Permission request

Hi Paxx,
Sure, go ahead. You have my permission.

==================


Then I could go ahead and make it. When done, I can then email the skin (or a screenshot) back to Adni and ask what he thinks. He can then say "Great! Go ahead, upload it" or he could say "Hum... You know what, maybe you should work a bit more the EQ buttons, they don't quite match the skin", or whatever. Or he could say "Forget it. This skin is ugly. Forget I ever gave you permission in the first place."

When the skin is uploaded, a text file with the copy-pasted permission request and aproval emails is included in the ZIP.
Reply #99 Top
Adni would never say "Forget it. This skin is ugly. Forget I ever gave you permission in the first place."

But I would.

Nice work Paxx, that was pretty cool.
Reply #100 Top
paxx....how does that differ from what's being done currently?

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