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The Skin Patch Debate

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The Skin Patch Debate

from WinCustomize Forums
There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
40,083 views 170 replies
Reply #101 from WinCustomize Forums Top
adni18: Apologies for laughing.

Anyway back to the topic: I just do not see the difference in someone doing a port of someone else's skin and doing an extra bit for WB. It's still taking someone elses work and tweaking it before putting your name to it. I would also say it's more work to add XP+WB4 features to an older WB skin than to do a port to say DesktopX.

To reiterate: Yes I want something in WB that can use skin patches. No I don't want the process to be opt-out. I want it to be opt-in so the author of the skin in the first place approves it but the person porting does not have to upload the full skin again themselves. To come back to thredz here there are now 2 thredz skins on this site. One by dangeruss and an updated one by me. The second is exactly the same except it has extra features and was uploaded by a different person. If the second had been a skin patch rather than a full skin then the downloads would still be being applied on that skin as well as the patch.

As to saying we should let old skins die I really do not agree. They are only old to those who saw them when they were created. New people to skinning have never seen them. But if they did come across them many would say 'This sucks! It doesn't even skin the start menu.' or similar. Does that mean the skin is no longer worth using? Of course not. But who here looks at the oldest skins when they want to find a nice WB? I would lay odds hardly anyone. And why? Because they were created when WB was in it's infancy and won't support the latest features. Old skins are not like other old things. They don't depreciate with time. The art is still art even if it's not been created yesterday. The only problem is it won't support all the latest bells and whistles. With the appropriate permission it would be great to see the skins updated and back where they belong. In pride of place instead of sitting at the bottom of the pile, slowly being covered over with dust and forgotten.

/me gets off his soapbox

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Reply #102 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Actually Paxx it's usally better to ask after you have the finished article or at least a mock up of it. In your scenario it would be too late for adni to cancel his permission. If you were unscrupulous you already have his permission and could upload it wherever you liked no matter how bad it sucked with his permission text attached.

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The Political Machine 2024
Reply #103 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Accepted pjpowell
Reply #104 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Peff: That IS what is currently done.
I was answering to a question asking how it was done currently.

pjpowell: I say let the old skins die if its original author dispeared and cannot be reached. Not assume that if he's gone, then he can't disagree.

But personnally, I must say I would hesitate to give someone permission to update an old skin of mine. Not that anyone would want to in the first place, mind you. Dunno. It'd be too weird. I don't mind people porting to another app, but actually updating a old skin? Dunno. I'd have to think about it, and it would highly depends who is asking.
Reply #105 from WinCustomize Forums Top
paxx: apologies. misunderstood. I agree. Updating without permission is not cool.

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Reply #106 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm about to start updating a skin right now that is almost 4 years old. It never got scrollbars or a lot of other features. If this skin was patched to have a shell styles and an XP taskbar, I don't see how it could be done without using the original graphics. It wouldn't match because there are textures in the skin that would have to be used. If the patched skin were installed it would still have no scrollbars, mouse-overs etc.

Updating this skin for me will involve re-doing everything, the buttons, making scroll and progress bar and probably redesigning much of the skin. The explorer and dialog backgrounds, some of the functions, and most of the graphics will all be redone to make it a "modern" skin. A patch would not improve the skin itself in any way so it would still be less desirable to use than a new skin.

Maybe this is a bad example because the skin is before WB2 in features. I know Allen Bond's work would fall in that category though. I've done an update on his Ampulla skin to use on my own system to add some mouse-overs and scroll/progress bars. That skin, or any of his, in order to be patched, would have to be done with the original graphics and would also need the WB2 features added to the skin itself.
Reply #107 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Finally, the worms are back in the can.
Reply #108 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think the skinners that have responded to this so far are unanimous on the opt-in side. If only because the patch, in most cases, would have to use the skin's original graphics.

I like the fact that a skin, once updated, would still be in its original state. The patches being a separate file from another person makes it less objectionable than re-releasing the skin under another name. I also like the fact that there could be several patches by different people for a single skin.

However... If people are not using the feature built in to WB4 that allows you to pick a shell styles and an XP set from another skin, would they use the patches? If they were using the WB4 feature would patches be necessary?

Although I think the patches are a great idea, Nikos' and paxx's points are very good. It could become a new "wallpapers" category where beginners do a mediocre job making a patch for a forgotten masterpiece. That would require moderation. So now you would have two people involved in approving the work, the original artist and the moderator. Plus it would involve downloading the original skin and applying the patch and communicating with both parties. A process far more laborious than how we currently moderate skins.

I do believe if it were implemented it would be a benefit for everyone and we'd all get used to it and figure out how to make it work.
Reply #109 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Sometimes I look back fondly to the time of the Community Skin projects, and how many skinners worked together to create a whole series of works essentially from the one, single graphic origin.

DavidK's concerns that to properly update a skin requires quite extensive reworking just my be the stumbling block that makes 'patching' less than successful for many of the skins that most need it.

We could get to the stage where there was little intrinsic difference between skinner no.2 'patching' an add-on, or skinner no.2 totally remaking an existing skin belonging to skinner no.1.
Could there not just be an additional category on the skinning sites for 'reworked skins', where conventional approval was sought as usual.
That way there could be, for example...
In the 'main' section...'Sputnik' by treetog
In the reworked section...'treetog's Sputnik' by paxx...etc.

Essentially you end up with the same result....updated skins.

Perhaps another section 'skins requiring completion/addition'....
Reply #110 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think it's time to go fishin'
Reply #111 from WinCustomize Forums Top
btw - I mean no insult to wallpapers in the above comment. As a moderator you get a different perspective on them as a category because most people start out making wallpapers rather than skins and we get tons of them that never make it to the library. The ratio of rejected wallpapers to rejected skins would be thousands to one...

forgive me... I probably dig my hole deeper...
Reply #112 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Dave...perhaps it only need be 'moderated' by the original author, and only go through the site admins for 'formal' legality....porn, etc...
Reply #113 from WinCustomize Forums Top
i think if you allow the original author upon submission to decide whether or not they want to have full control or allow users to freely submit changes, there would be no problem and would be a wonderful system.
Reply #114 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jafo, that sounds like no different than how we do it now...

I went back to the original post because I'm getting confused now about what is really being proposed.
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from post#1
Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose.
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also, the patches would install themselves into the skin on a user's computer so selecting the skin would select the patch with it.

The real question is should the patches be turned ON by default or be turned OFF by default. In the download section at Wincustomize that is. Obviously, an author who is 'long gone' will probaly never return to authorize this new feature. Do we leave his work out of this update to Windowblinds? It looks like either way the patches would be moderated.
Reply #115 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Another thought... since the plan is to have this feature available on all sites that would support it, wouldn't an artist who wanted to reject a patch then have to do so on each site his work is posted on? Could be a source of aggravation to some artists and some site admins... In this case I would definitely think it should be an opt-in feature where the permissions would apply across all sites. In other words, the skin itself would activate the feature with some code in the UIS file, or something like that.
Reply #116 from WinCustomize Forums Top
andi18, for sure it is, but I am thinking more along the lines of taking on skinning in pieces as you do for say, Network Administration, you don't just jump into it. You have Networking technologies, NOS enviornments, PC hardware, etc..

It's like this, for me at least, maybe it is because of being dissoid? not sure, but.

I can pretty much remodel a house with hlep with the work of course, but I can go into a home, speak with the people and find out what it is they want, and what they will need to get there.

I actually started working summers for my brothers construction company at 14, doing specific tasks until I could do them in my sleep. Then I would progress to something(s) new, while also continuing to do those things I had mastered. etc...

I amnot saying anyway is better than another, but for myself and some others most likely, such a thing would in fact be a better track into skinning and such.

That is why different corporations that provide certification programs have normal calsses, CBT's online, Boot camps, etc.

My point was/is that having the patch process there opens another avenue for people starting out....

in a nut shell


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Reply #117 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I dunno...

I'll opt-out the convo because I really do not fit the situation when I consider the fact I have yet to even attemp a simple taskbar let alone a skin

So like when I was working for Mike years back, I'll cloe my mouth and open my ears and eyes and pick through things to find the things that fit together


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Reply #118 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think it will all boil down to one simple question.

Opt in, or opt out.

No matter how it is phrased/worded/argued/legitimized, 'opt in' is the ONLY correct course for genuine protection of an author's copyright, whether the skin graphics are used or not, or even just the skin name is used and absolutely nothing else.

In my mind, 'opting out' would be like saying...'oh, no-one was around so I figured this car didn't belong to anyone so I took it for myself.'
'Opting in' would be akin to 'Hi, you don't appear to need/want that car...can I have it?'

There MUST always be an opportunity to say 'No'....
Reply #120 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I agree with you Jafo. Don't laugh at me if this is an incredibly silly idea, but perhaps it would be possible to have one multi-site network or database for the major and not so major websites that wish to comply with the network.

For example (This is MY idea of an almost ideal system): Beginner-Skinner Bob wants to upload an update to a popular skin. He creates a rough version of the update, takes a screenshot, and e-mails the screenshot to the original author of the popular skin. The author gives Bob go-ahead #1, and Bob finishes up the skin. He then sends an updated screenshot to the original author, and this time the author gives Bob go-ahead #2. Bob then logs onto the site of his choice, uploads his update, and the update then gets transfered to all sites that wish to comply with the network.

Sorry if I just bored you to death, but I figured I might as well throw my opinion into all of this.
Reply #121 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The last bit of your idea isn't feasable, but I think it could be possible to make something software-side.
IE: A user loads an old skin, Windowblinds makes a quick check on the Wincust database, and then tells the user "Hey, there is a patch for that skin, Wanna get it?".
Reply #122 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have give permission to a lot of people, to port my skins for other applications.
Do you want to know the results?
The most of them they were very poor with bad graphic details.
They were some exceptions though, but just 2 or 3 only.
Do you believe that with the skin patches we are going to have better results?

I am not negative; I just try to offer you my 2 cents.
After all it is a debate, isn't it?
Reply #123 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Nikos...that's why it should be an opt in process.
If you or anyone has reservations about possible quality degradation then they can simply do nothing and no-one will be allowed to touch their work[s] without begging directly...
Reply #124 from WinCustomize Forums Top
So, what is being suggested is that there would be a checkbox for each skin letting the author choose if he wants or not to let people make a patch for it without asking permission?

I can't imagine anybody checking that box. I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't let just ANYBODY make that patch. And even if a good skinner made an excellent job, I certainly would appreciate to know about it.
Reply #125 from WinCustomize Forums Top
It is still looks complicated to me Paul and I love clear and simple situations in a public community and as a computer user too.
If it was philosophy, then count me in, no matter how complicate a case could be, it is always very interesting for me