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The Skin Patch Debate

The Skin Patch Debate

There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
40,075 views 170 replies
Reply #51 Top
one example i just found 5 minutes ago. http://art.gnome.org/show_theme.php?themeID=369&category=metacity

a new skin for Metacity that is using the code from my Glacier theme (is just as important as the graphics in this format). as i released my Glacier as Open Source it was easier for the other guy to create this new skin.
Reply #52 Top
paxx: this is what I said, for personal use.

For me to ask an Author like Treetog for permission in my early stages of design and production, well I don't think I am even ready for that. So here I am, satisfying my personal use as a user.

But am I correct in saying what we are looking to do here is produce unmatched styles and graphics to add to an already created skin in order to avoid permissive rights from an author, or create a hodgepodge of addons to go with the original design?

Suddenly, I am becoming confused.

No offense meant paxx.

I think I need to reread the original post for a fourth time.
Reply #53 Top
OK jake. Let me rephase my suggestion:

In the case of an add-on that does not copy the style or the graphics of an existing skin, then the add-ons could be considered a separate skin, therefore being applicable to a number of skins. The add-on could be configured to suggest a number of specific skins that it could be matched with.
In the case where somebody is making an add-on the perfectly match the style of an existing skin, the permission is indeed required. As it is for any other port of a skin, be it an Objectbar, a Winamp skin, or whatever.
Reply #54 Top
In my humble opinion, Yes it is necessary to be able to update or patch various skins. I am not an artist or a skinner but I do emphasize with there opinions (creativity is pretty much synonomus with tempermental).

The issue as I see it is; do we want to stiffle progress or remain static? If you go for the latter then we all would still be using the first edition of Windows.

The solution has already been mentioned by Frogboy in his earier post:
"I do agree another path could be for this all to be done in software. Simply encourage users to submit widgets to the widget section and the author of the widget could specifcy which skin they had in mind (a user could use it on any skin) and then WindowBlinds could connect to that and offer recommendations on the software side."

Also it might be a good idea to put into the process a limitation that would make it extreamly difficult to upload the result of the patched skin. Other then perhaps a screen-shot so that people could decide if it would also work for them on THERE syetems.
After all is not the idea or concept that we are to use these suites for our OWN desktops?


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Reply #56 Top
I have always considered myself very open minded when it comes to ideas.

Yet for some reason, I find this whole patching idea to be little more than a clever way to make skinning exclusive rather than inclusive.

Why are the top Author's staying silent in this matter, could it be they (of which someday I hope to be one) already know by the looks of "Widgets for SkinStudio" that it will not work for the majority due to the minority?

I resented people coming to my workshop and taking my ideas and hard work and using them for purposes of personal gain without my permission. But I was trying to make living and did not have the time or funding to submit patents or copyrights for my personally helpful inventions. So I simply moved on watching others locally take the credit.

I think in the end, we will have this same problem, as each "old skin" is renewed, the line will become even blurrier.

How can we expect "moderation" when even now moderators are hard pressed to manage what they already need to do; hire more?

I think the only way around this is to go ahead and try it, lets see what happens...

...and if I am right, then I can say, "See, I told you so"
Reply #57 Top
HuronJoe: We would indeed still be using the first version of Windows if Microsoft themselves had not updated their OS. No other company would have been allowed to release newer versions of Windows.

But yes, I picked up on the idea fore-mentionned, but added the possiblity of suggesting more than one specific skin. After all, if a widget doesn't use the graphics or style of any existing skin, then it could most probably work on a number of skins, not just one.
Reply #58 Top
it's an enigma, shrouded in a mystery, wrapped in a tortilla, with some shredded lettuce and sour cream...

I dunno. The concept of mix 'n match widgets is cool within a particular app, but when they start getting carted off to other apps the new skin is a derivative work, and only the original artist can authorize that. I could be misunderstanding, but this seems like more of a site/db issue. I don't think anyone is suggesting allowing the use of the original artist's graphics, so to me the issue is only how the non-derivative, complimentary material will be linked with the original skin/theme.

I guess something like 'link this item with another item' added to the upload form, with each skin entry having a little box of "matching" linked skins. It wouldn't be any more harmful than comments, imho, but people will do it to leech visibility off the major works. You can imagine, if someone can link their work to one of treetog's hugely popular works, it will be an oft (if not well)-used resource.

But then i could be completely misunderstanding this. If so, ignore/abuse me at will. I'll catch up.

Reply #59 Top
Paxx I like your idea that the widget example be usable for all skins. In fact there are quite a few ideas already expressed and thus (IMO)the orginal purpose of the thread.
If Bill Gates had believed in Open Source originally he would not be so rich. When Microsoft first came on the sceen, everybody and there mother wanted there own propritary way of doing things and there was no commanality. Now everyone just takes it for granted that ALL menus on DIFFERENT applications are the same for the same functionality. A simple concept but it took a long time before vendors agreed to it.

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Reply #60 Top
Hum... All the menus on a Mac are pretty much the same from one app to the next. Microsoft didn't invent anything.

Bakerstreet: leaching! Very good point! Hadn't thought of that one.
Reply #61 Top
Perfect solution to skins patching/updating/etc.:

1. Turn off shellstyles.
2. Use a shell such as Blackbox or LiteStep - never have to worry about that unskinned XP start menu again!

*coughs* Sorry, I couldn't resist. I /do/ want to say though - I think this is a wonderful idea - I just... can't really give any opinions on it yet. I've been mulling it all over since the first time Frogboy mentioned it way-back-when. There's just too many variables involved for my poor mind to handle easily. ^_^
Reply #62 Top
dang * bakerstreet *

/me ,now has got to go get the dog brushed so I can put him in the truck and drive over the bridge and hope, mind you after a 40 minute drive, that this little older lady from Honduras has her kitchen trailer stopped where she normally parks it so I can get a real meal



heck I think I'll do just that about 1:00, give her time to setup and get the grill hot and cured with seasoning


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Reply #63 Top
I think the idea of patching skins is a fine one, its an idea that has been batted around messageboards for a while now, first of all, who can claim they have never updated a skin for their own use, eg added a start bar/menu, changed the colours etc. so why not make these updates available for everyone? as for defaults, I personally think, that by default a skin should be patchable, cos I would love people to patch skins I create, I cant think why anyone would mind. It should be left up to those who are against there work being updated to say so, it would be a lot easier than getting everyone else to say yes.

(sorry if a rambled to much, I think what I meant to say is in there somewhere).
Reply #64 Top
oh, and why not have the patches all seperate, catagorised by some sort of grouping, taskbars, startmenu's etc, but instead of having the specifically for a certain skin, just have a comment, saying that it is recomende for use with a skin, no specifics involved, then permissions would be less of a problem.
Reply #67 Top
Spinal, there is nothing wrong with modifying a skin for your personal use, it's when you redistribute the modified work, that it becomes a copyright infringement. And this is why making this an 'opt out' process, is unethical.
Reply #68 Top
This seems like a very unstable, highly volatile subject.......
Also extremely subjective in content.
Lotsa Luck...

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Reply #69 Top
I like it

but maybe there could be a twist applied to the opt in process?

Go ahead and start it with resident skinners and such having the choice to opt in. Let it run for a bit, see how it is doing and if all is well then spread it to the other sites and
let people know that they have to opt in for it at this site alone to register with an email
from their members account in the records. Patches and updates would reside at this location for as long as was decided was best. If at some point other sites wish to opt themselves into the process, great, if not, this will be the site for legal updates with authors permission and quality assurance...

maybe?


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Reply #70 Top
Kind of like "If you build it they will come" those interested in allowing others to do this would come to apply, or send the email...

Those that don't wouldn't, probably get stinky a bit, some, but

The mechanics for selection of submitted things would have to be decided upon and such, but that would have to come about anyways...


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Reply #71 Top
A -can "o" worms- I say.

But hey, you can do a lot fishin' with a can of worms, it's simply a matter of making it through the briar patch without losing too many before you get to the water.

So how many of you are scratching your heads now?

Reply #73 Top
mupb
Reply #74 Top
pbum...
Reply #75 Top
Only one left.....ubmp

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