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The Skin Patch Debate

The Skin Patch Debate

There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
40,075 views 170 replies
Reply #151 Top
having pondered it a bit more...


Mix and matching total works are just complex ways of delivering the content to the user. Nothing is really created, technically; it is just a 'serving suggestion', or packaging. Patching, on the other hand manipulates or changes the original work, even if it is "just" the skin settings or scripting. Lets not forget the scripting skill it takes to makes these skins work. Will the graphics be the only protected part? If the work, like Adobe Photoshop, was designed to accept third-party functionality, great. I don't see that here.

Fact is, honestly, it may not be legal.

Microsoft, Sony, etc., believes that modchips, i.e. pieces of third-party hardware a user can use to replace the original hardware in their privately owned machines, are illegal. They believe it so much that commercial sites are closed and people are arrested for selling them. Their belief is made concrete since reverse engineering has become illegal. The act of taking something apart to see how it works is now basically verboten if the creator insists on it; especially software.

If skins and themes are going to be classed as anything in terms of protection, software would be it. Complex items like LS themes, Winamp 3 and WMP skins are unmistakably software, but even the most flat, un-complex skin should receive the same consideration.


So.


By patching old skins to change their appearance or functionality, you are either a) creating a derivative work, or b) creating something that allows a third party to create a derivative work. In addition, the original work has at some level been reverse engineered to create the patch. Do most of us mind someone taking our stuff apart to learn or to change it for their own use? Heck no! Would it suck *really* bad if we assumed everyone felt the same? I think it would.

The only way this would be acceptable is if an opt-in checkbox were added to every skin entry, and nothing could be made until the owner of the work came back and agreed. Even then, you have to deal with people who change their minds. Will you delete the patches when the original creator hates them and un-checks the box? If you make it permanent status for a skin, won't people just delete the original skins if a mod appears that they hate?

I have no idea how this will work. If it is attempted, it seems like it will be endlessly annoying to all parties concerned. I vote no.
Reply #152 Top
I don't think any check box could work.

I don't think a lot of people would accept to make a skin "patchable" by anybody, regardless of the newbie's talent or the quality of the end result.
More likely, skinner will want to see what the other guy did and then say Hey or Nay. Also a skinner may want to control the number of patches available. Heck, he may want to have one ONE OFFICAL patch made by one person, and accept no other ones.
Checkbox wouldn't work.

It has to be done like tit is now for any port. The regular email permission way.
Reply #153 Top
Not bad bakerstreet.

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Reply #154 Top
Sorry paxx, but I could'nt help myself

Ok...Back to topic...I am not a skinner so my opinion means diddly squat but I think the patching concept is great if it could only please everyone involved...my tarnished two pennies

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Reply #155 Top
Even today, a user of WindowBlinds can choose to use the Start Bar from skin A with the rest coming from Skin B.

There are lots of potential solutions for this sort of thing. The challenge is to find a way that satisfies both users and skin authors.

For example, the whole thing could be done at the software level.

Example:

Section 1: The WindowBlinds section
Section 2: WindowBlinds Widgets (we already have such a section)

A user could submit a widget to the WindowBlinds widget area and as part of their upload list specific WB skins that their widget was designed to enhance. Moderators could then make the judgement over whether the widget is of acceptable quality (or abusing the system by claiming it is for all skins).

Then, WindowBlinds or WinStyles or the WinCustomize browser could offer users additional substyles that are created on the fly by looking in the widget section.

For instance, WBMania is a great skin. DAK has been MIA for quite awhile. Let's say I made a shellstyle for it and put it in the widget area.

A user of WBMania from the WindowBlinds config dialog could choose "Additional Styles..." from the sub-style combo box. It would then go to WinCustomize's database and then have a checkbox of various available extensions on the net such as [X] WBMania Shellstyle by Frogboy [X] WBMania XP Start bar by Alexandrie, and so on.

If the original skin author were to click on the checkbox to support skin patches, then these widgets would be linked in the original skin's listing as available extensions. And when a widget is accepted by a moderator, then that original skin could be re-listed as "updated" -- thus giving the original skin author a benefit to allowing others to provide seperate widgets.

What do you guys think of that?
Reply #156 Top
Admin Frogboy
Would these widgets be kept in a separate folder in the users computer?
And could the user select a widget to use with a certain skin today and then select a different widget by a different author tomorrow for the same feature add on,for the same skin?

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Reply #157 Top
This gets more and more interesting.....
the excellent pros versus the excellent cons are high entertainment, baby... yeah!
I keep going one way and then the other way...

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Reply #158 Top
Frogboy, when a user mixes and matches different skins on HIS computer, it's perfectly right. The same as people can edit, modify, distort, any skin or wallpaper, as long as it stays on his own computer.

But when people start uploading patches that they specifically made to go with another person's skin, that's when it's not acceptable anymore, unless the original author gave his OK. If the author is gone, well so are the skins.

Also, I don't agree about the checkbox to support skin patches. That means that there is only two choices:
- I don't want anybody EVER patching this skin
- I want to let anybody in the World make patches for this skin without ever asking me what I thought of it.

There should be a third checkbox for people who agree to let people make patches for the skin, as long as they get asked their permission and as long as they get to approve the quality of the final work.
Reply #159 Top
I think paxx kit on a good idea. The third choice. The can do, with permission and the final approvel.

In Frogboys #155 he says he makes a shellstyle for DAK's skin. I can't see how he would match the colors up unless he ports it. If that happens then I was under the impression that would need permission included with the upload.

From what I see here at WC, there are a lot of people making things for other peoples skins already. IE: jebland doing objectBars for skins(with permission)and there are others that I can't remember right now. I don't think we need to change anything. If someone wants to do a Shellstyle for a skin let them ask the creator of that skin for permission.

Why fix something thats not broke. Why create a potential mess.

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Reply #160 Top
Wow, I must have a very interesting part of my brain I know nothing about, because it saw all of this just before my 1st post on this thread.

All I can say now is, why not just try it and see how it works. It may end up being the greatest thing yet, or, it will be another "Widgets for SkinStudio".
Reply #161 Top
I think wincustomize is right on track. As a relatively new user of windows skins I hate getting one that don't work with all the options. that alone kept me from joining and paying for skins rather than just test driving them.
When you find skins that work, and work well with all the functionallity that you expect that makes me want to come back for more.
Let the author of the art make a determination on weather to allow the patch or not and for in-active authors the desision being made by wincustomze lets there be control in the in-active area without pushing there skins into oblivian.
I vote yes for the patches.
Reply #162 Top
This is beginning to sound like... "Don't wear those 'horrid' shoes and that 'outdated' purse with this 'fabulous' outfit that I designed" ! The word "prima donna" comes to mind... Especially considering the "skinning" environment is a sort of "free", "open source" environment for the most part. What if Windows itself had sported reciprocal levels of 'tude about being skinned in the first place? We wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be no changing, modifying, patching or enhancing of the graphical user interface! Maybe a so called "open source" library can be created and maintained entirely of skins that are to be freely shared and are allowed to be enhanced, mixed, modified and incorporated into the emerging new gui technologies and innovations.
Reply #163 Top
I have carefully read this thread from the day that it started. I regret that there is no solution for the "old" skins that were made by people that are no longer around...Does anybody remember AF Legend, Phoenix, Goldframe or Nautilus? (just to name a few) Before so many Windowblinds skins became "XP" in assorted colors, there were a lot of really good skins. I have kept some of them and updated them as Windows progressed, and made matching Objectbars No big deal here, but I do hate to see such good skins fade into oblivion. I know there are a lot of other people that have updated the "oldies" for their own use just as I have. Guess it's just one of those things.

And, before I get flamed, I do not mean that there are not good skins being produced now, just that I still like a lot of the old ones.
Reply #164 Top
I remember Phoenix I love that Blind..Would love to see it Updated

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Reply #165 Top
Solarlove, so we are Primadonnas. But you know what? It's our right.
I see that you have no skin to your name, so it seems you only benefit from what we create totally for free, us Primadonnas.

And you're wrong. Skinning is NOT open source. Stardock's products are not open source, and neither are the skins we make for it.

As a user, you are free to use them as you please, but you cannot modify them, nor can you distribute them. Not for free, not for a fee.

What can I say? Us Primadonnas are have this annoying attitude.
If you don't like it, you can make your skins yourself.
Reply #166 Top
So, it will not be the authors to agree with a patch of their skins, but the moderators!!!
Let's say for example, that the users will have a widget-patch for Essorant's skin with a glassy and fancy buttons and you think that will be a choice for his skin?
I am sorry that I have to say this, but it looks to me like a bad joke, unless I didn't understand well what Frogboy said..

Please don't forget that there are more than 2.000 WindowBlinds skins, I think that the users are having too many choices. Do you thing that users are needing other 1.000 choices to choose from widget-patches? Do you think that they will not be confused with all these choices?

"Why fix something thats not broke. Why create a potential mess".
Reply #167 Top
Ah...poo....lost the comment...

Moderation would be for acceptable content, following consent from skinner.

[short answer...lost one was longer...frustration sets in]...
Reply #168 Top
The word "update" is extremely subjective. What one person considers and improvement another would consider a degradation. To force such a subjective procedure on a copyrighted work is unthinkable.

Skins are no different than software or works of art. We do not force programmers or sculpters or poets to accept outside updates to their respective works, THEY are the ones responsible for maintaining their product. We should not be forcing skinners to surrender their ownership rights for the sake of future updates created by someone else.

It seems to me the sensible compromise would be to allow the original skinners to opt into the update pool. There would be updatable "open source" skins and there would be proprietary skins. Let the skinners decide which group they choose to associate themselves with when they release their work.
Reply #169 Top
Seeing that it is unlikey that I will ever release a skin to the public anymore and that my (measly) old ones are gathering dust on the drives on a handfull only, this doesn't really affect me.

Add to that that just about every skinner in here things this should be opt-in (I read selectively), and I think we all agree on things.

But my first thoughts were these questions: 1) how is this 'patching' going to work technically? Are going to download ips files and patch old skins or what?
2) plus it all seems to rotate around WindowBlinds and the like, how about skins for other apps, or isn't that an issue?
Reply #170 Top
This would be Windowblinds only crae.
It's to add the new XP features to skins made previous to WB4.