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The Skin Patch Debate

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The Skin Patch Debate

from WinCustomize Forums
There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
40,074 views 170 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I was thinking along similar lines as Koasati, why would the patches have to be associated with specific skins? If it's just a taskbar/start menu or a set of shell styles enhancements, and both of those can be applied independantly now, why not make it a section where you could pick one that goes well with the skin you're using?

I guess it would be better to have it match the skin but that would mean using original design elements and would require permission. Another problem would be the scrollbars and progress bar. A lot of 'old' skins don't have those skinned and those would require re-doing the skin itself and not just a patch.

Basically I also think it's a great idea. I'd like to think that the patches would be done by skinners familiar with the WB format and skilled enough to do decent work. The thought of having some really terrible patches connected with great skins is a little distressing, but I guess people can just choose to not use them.
Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I don't view it as changing an artists work. I look at is as, adding to it. Lets take for example a painting. I have a canvass painting by an artist. The artist is no where around. At the time of the painting there we no such things as Frames. I want to Frame the painting to make it complete. Would it be wrong for me to place the painting in a frame? I don't think it would be. I'm all for this new system with an opt out method.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I kinda like the idea if there ever is a problem and the specific author has a problem with the updates wincustomize will remove them right?? but at long as he shows nothing against this it's ok right?? I love it... so the author always does have the final say... go for it frogboy, however this looks like it's gonna be hard to do...

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Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I tend to look at the middle ground. I agree you don't want joe schmoe having his patched displayed in the listing of a clsasic skin.

That's why I'd favor putting that in the hands of the moderator. You'd have wallpaper style moderating when it's an update for a skin that doesn't have explicit approval for patching.

I do agree a nother path could be for this all to be done in software. Simply encourage users to submit widgets to the widget section and the author of the widget could specifcy which skin they had in mind (a usre could use it on any skin) and then WindowBlinds could connect to thta and offer recommendations on the software side.
Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I don't see this as framing the painting, it's more like adding to the painting. Mona Lisa needs a beret, so I'll add one. Leonardo hasn't been around for a while, so it's ok, until he opts out.
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
/me thinks Brad's fingers are tongue tied....
Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I just wanted to say something on behalf of artists that aren't around any more.
Would Leonardo da Vinci mind if we added to the Mona Lisa?
One of the greatest masterpieces of human existence.

Just thought I would add that for a little perspective from the outside looking in.
I am up in the air about what I think on the matter.

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Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I don't think any of these analogies really work right. There's really nothing to compare this too.
Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top
No...it's hard to find an analogous comparison, but it's also hard to determine a 'safe' course of action as well...
Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This is a place where an archive of one of mankind's greatest achievements is on display.
Computer graphics.
Five billion years in the making.
Maybe we should preserve the history?

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Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I agree, it's a lousy analogy............but T-MAN started it..
Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top
um, from the planters can

doesn't it all really boil down to the process in the end?

it is totally new from what I've been reading, moral dilemma aside for a moment...

if the process is worked out, and be prov-en it has reached an acceptable level to provide the best security in protecting the position and rights of the original artist/author, wouldn't it be easier to quell some of the reservations?

I do not mean write code or anything, but the moderation, submission, precision part of it being on paper, hashed out to the point of consensus that it is the best starting place, but chiseled in stone so it can grow or contract as needed.

an ROI model

the investment being the positives which it could or would provide weighed against the negative that *might* out weigh the positives in the end...

um, thinking about this thread and what I have read so far I guess that is whats happening now ?

And I'm missing it in the mix..

ok, I'll lurk and not give into the impulse to remove all doubt but instead watch, read and learn

grasshopper let cricket butt chirp out of order making silly noise...


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Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
"not chiseled in stone", it should be

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Reply #39 from WinCustomize Forums Top
lPlural...Wincustomize.com offers the perfect interface between the developer[s] of Windowblinds [etc] and the Skinners themselves.
Here is THE place where the moving will be moved and shaking will be shook.

Just get involved...
Reply #40 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Old Crab only uses the freshest skins. Patchs may or may not work on any individual system useing several flavors of any given particular software program. The amount of work to the admins will be increased and so will bandwidth and storage space. Old Crabs 1 1/2 cents worth. Especially since OC is just an abuser...err...user.
Reply #41 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think Wincustomise should send an Email to those WB Skinners that are known to be still active(this process could be selective if necessary) asking if they would be prepared to allow their older Skins to be patched via a moderation process. Some will , some won't . WB skinners that cannot be contacted, hands off their wares.

This is of course a matter between The Skinners and Wincustomise. Users (like me) would love all old WB Skins updated, but users should not figure in the equation.

If the Email thing is too hard, then forget everything.The author has to agree to this concept. However I do not think that every WB Skin in the archive needs to be updated for this patch concept to work. If 500 are patched instead of 2000, its still a lot of rejuvenated skins on the site.
Reply #42 from WinCustomize Forums Top
OK, Brad, here's my idea.
I know, it's mostly the same as you've proposed, except for a semantics difference:
1- A skinner skins an XP taskbar. Either in the skin's INI file or on Wincustomize's upload script, he selects a number of "suggested Windowblinds skins" that this taskbar could go well with.
2- A user selects to download a skin that has no XP taskbar
3- A popup comes up, letting him know that this is an older skin and that it has no XP support, but here is a suggested add-on to this skin that could go well with it.

It's basically the same Brad already said with the difference that the patch "suggests" which skins could go well with it, and also, the fact that there could be many skins suggested takes away the automatic link between a specific skin and a specific patch, therefore it takes away the impression that a patch was specifically made to modify an orginal skin.

Of course, if the patch uses or modifies any or the orginal graphics, permission is still needed.
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top
making the old skins Open Source, eh? the whole thing is that WindowBlinds needs more skins with shellstyles. in the end this will only affect a limited number of skins, so why not mailing the most popular skinners here and ask if the would agree with opening their skins to that SkinPatch thing.

opt-in is a very cool idea.
opt-out is unethical.
Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As per my idea, no permission is needed. No opt-in nor opt-out.
The idea is making the add-ons seperate, independant skins. It would be similar as making a separate Objectbar skin, for example. But the skinner that would make the said add-on could suggest which skins his add-on could be well suited with. Very much like if it was a skin for a completely seperate application. And the rules would then be the same: if the new skinned add-on used or copied the graphics or any skin, then permission would be essential.

I think this would work very well, and the solution to the present problem is probably along those lines.
Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top
paxx: yes, this would be ok. but in reality nobody really wants that. for example with Seer wouldn´t you prefer a shellstyle that matches Seer exactly and not something that has somehow similar colors, but only makes your interface less clean than using no shellstyle?
Reply #46 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Well then, if it matches EXACTLY, then permission is needed, as per any other port. End of story. No?
Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here's an analogy.

"The whole thing is like walking through a thorny thicket with a fully opened can of worms."

However, the "idea" has merit as it could lead to a fresher if not newer way of skin production provided all the artists would act in a community spirit with the newcomers. If not, then we will have an application soley for personal use, which then would take away from SkinStudio as a means to create and also renew skins as a learning experiance which is what I do.

Case in point, I have taken skins from some of the top authors and modified them for personal tastes, and as a way to learn how to create my own. This is not to say that the skins were less than should be, but like everyone else, we all have varying tastes, and I have learned much from this exercise.

So, what have I done, but to change "original intent" for personal use. As such, these modified skins will never leave my computer because they may very well insult the Author by infringing upon that "original intent".

So, will not this new application simply be for "personal use" in the end, because as a community tool, we already know how well that works. I look at our little friend "Widgets for SkinStudio and wonder.

Now we are back to where we started.
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
until now yes. personally i like the idea of Open Source skins. this way your skins have the opportunity to "live" longer and not die out if a skin format changes. of course it has to be the author´s decision wether he wants that or not. in the Linux community Open Source is standard and it works. one bad thing is that not enough people try to do new things and just update the old, but that´s a different story.
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
jake: if you use or copy the stlye or the graphics from somebody else, then you need permission to make it public. But you can use it as much as you want for your personnal use.
Reply #50 from WinCustomize Forums Top
moshi: open source exists and it's an artist's decision. Some skinners have already made their artwork open source. Dangeruss and Carlitus comes to my mind.