Draginol Draginol

My rant -Is there REALLY a skin "community"?

My rant -Is there REALLY a skin "community"?

I have been part of virtual communities for the past 15 years. I know what they are. I started out in the BBS world and we had a local area virtual community. It didn't have a name but we were all literally tied together by what was in the local phone exchange.

When the Internet came, I considered myself part of a larger community, the OS/2 community.

A community isn't necessarily homogenous but what makes something a "community" is the sense that it exceeds a certain threshold of closeness and that the majority of the participants have the same basic concept of what that community is.

But is there a "Skinning" community? I think not. Rather, there are several smaller communities with very distinct concepts of what that community is. I think there is a skeletal structure for a general skinning community but really, the communities are largely tied to the sites.

I think there is a Stardock community. And I think there is a WinCustomize community. I also think there is a DeviantART community as well as communities for each site. And I think there is some overlap.

But the overlap between these communities is often little to non existent in my opinion.

There is constant bickering over what actually IS the community. And I think a lot of that comes from such a diverse set of demographics. Look at the demograhpics of this site compared to say Customize.org. The average active participant here can legally drink alcohol in all states in the US and they have full time jobs.

When Skinz.org was at its height, I think there was an overall community, albeit a small one.

But I've become increasing frustrated, well let me be blunt, disgusted with certain parallel universe versions of the skin community. You have the anti-capitalists (I.e. "I haven't personally spent any real time contributing for the past year but I want to say that everything should be free! Rock on!"). You have the group that contributes some but does so out of ego-gratification (I.e. "I've done some modest work over the year and want to let you know that I"m king of the community and I will crush all those who oppose me! Worship me!"). I don't know which contigency is worse.

The former is definitely in full loudness this week in that Customize.org discussion on whether skin suites should be free or not.

And it really highlights this post's point - there is no single skin community. There are many competing visions. If I wrote a post "What do you think of people charging for skin suites" I think it's safe to say that the response would be overwhelmingly "Good for them!" here. But elsewhere you get the folks who think that it's okay for skin SITES to make money off of the work of skin authors but that skin authors should work for free. Skin authors are apparently to be slaves in this vision, slaves to skin sites who profit from their efforts.

I have gotten a real kick out of the "free beer" folks who have criticized WinCustomize because it's a "corporate site" (even though the most of the other sites are, just that in this case, our parent company is a software developer) yet this site has no banner ads, no pop ups, etc. I think it's GOOD for skin sites to make money. I think it's GOOD for them to have banner ads and whatever else they need to generate income. The difference though is that people, whoever they are, shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that selling a good or service is bad yet banner ads and pop up ads are okay. In all cases, the entity in question is trying to generate revenue to pay for those expenses.

My friend Jark took grief because he has set up a subscription service. Unbelievable. Grief from people who have contributed zilch. My friends Treetog/Alexandrie/Nuvem are taking grief because they want to charge a measely $10 in exchange for around TWENTY skins. My lunch cost more than $10 today. And of course, we're always taking grief from those who argue our software is free or that our software is doomed to be passed up by free alternatives (note to them: WB's kicking ass, people who can afford WB are choosing it over free alternatives).

Which brings me back to the beginning, there is no such thing as a single skin community. There are merely a confederation of communities, each thinking that they have the vision of what the skin community is.

I for one am thankful every day that this site, our news groups (check out news://news.stardock.com) have such wonderful cool people. I am thankful that many of the leaders of the other skin sites are so cool (I talk to Jark regularly, Scarebear is a great guy, and Chaz and I chat on IRC regularly and is a great guy too). But the events of the past few months have led me to basically stop caring what the other bitter nasty contigents think. At least in the sense of letting it dictate our actions.

Let the "free beer" folks complain and yell. Those who actually contribute are the ones whose opinions matter to me.

When we first started this site we took a lot of grief from the "free beer" folks and they eventually migrated elsewhere. I'm glad. I'm not interested in them. I don't consider them part of the community we all, together, have helped create. What we call that community doesn't matter. But it's our community. Created with care, kindness, and hard work. With people who respect each other and each other's efforts and are generous in heart. Ethically strong yet not overly judgemental of others. You guys are the type of people I want to be around. To be associated with.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day. Feel free to add yours.
39,098 views 121 replies
Reply #26 Top
Sorry to have to say it, but I think that the fragmentation of the skin community that once was (judging by reports - I never really experienced it) is going to continue. Moreover, I think it was inevitable.

Over the last few years, skinning has expanded from being a niche market of a few apps, most of which skinned themselves (along with a few people who were trying out an exciting new field) to being a mass of skinners, skin sites and skinned/skinning applications. As your own statistics have shown, the number of users in "the community" has skyrocketed. Somewhere along the line, it's become impossible for one site to serve all of them, because they *are* so different.

And, yes, the money involved hasn't helped - some people feel that some things should be free, and some don't. There are now enough of them to make their own community, if they want. Evidently, they do.

I don't think this is something you can stop. If you try, you'll just end up frustrated. The most you can do is be as inclusive as possible - if that's what you want to do. Even then, you have to decide - where do you draw the line? It's a hard question, and one I'm glad I don't have to decide.
Reply #27 Top
for me the skinning community was always about #skinnerz and not so much the sites. Thats where we hung out every day, interacted, fought, laughed and lost one of our own (dethvader-RIP). The sites always seemed to be their own thing with some people bouncing to and fro looking for the next great skin for that week or two. I look at the sites more as "tribes or clans" who are part of the same species but have very different cultures and ideals.
Reply #28 Top
What I like about Shoggot, is what I've always liked about Shoggot - he doesn't pull punches. He tells things how he feels they are but does so in a reasonably mature way.

And he candidly sets out the principles of why, like GreenReaper says, there really is not single "skin community" today. Instead, there are several all of which think that they have inherited the mantle of the original tightly knit community.

The "free beer" contigents points seem to be:

1) It is okay for websites to recoup their costs

2) It is not okay for software companies to recoup their costs (only "Evil" companies actually make it a business to make money writing customization software even though they were here at the beginning as well).

3) It is okay for skin authors to recoup costs but not okay to use other websites to do so (even though those websites get their visitors because of the efforts of the skin authors).

4) Deeds are irrelevant. Words are what count. Hierachies are denied but exist based on words and "attitude". A person can carry more weight because they've managed to shout down others. They will speak how they're an Admin and powerful while at the same time claim that everyone is equal and that their opponents are the ones who think they are "Better" than everyone else.

5) The community is an exclusive club in which the elites decide who is and isn't part of the community (i.e. "Everyone's equal but I decide which sites are 'community sites').

The WinCustomize "mob" / Stardock "Gang" community looks at it differently:

1) Right tool for the right job. Freeware/shareare/commercialware are irrelevant. It's what does the best and is affordable.

2) There is no distinction between creators of intellectual property - skins, software, sites. All have the right to control and expand their destinies. I.e. if it's okay to do a news item or screenshot of an application, it is okay to do a screenshot of a skin that isn't free. There is no distinction.

3)There is a symbiotic, cooperative relationship between skin sites, softwrae developers, and skin creators.

4) Deeds matter, words don't matter. Hierachies exist and are based on deeds, not "attitude". Russ's opinion or Johanne's opinion carries greater weight than someone else's in the community because of their deeds.

5) The community is huge and anyone who likes to customize their computer is part of it. But we acknowledge different levels of participation (i.e. there are roughly 40,000 specific people who visit this site at least 1 time per day, they'reall part of the community in my view but are at differnet levels of participation than say Jesh).

These stark differences doesn't make one better than the other. Just different.
Reply #29 Top
Don't take this the wrong way but sometimes you guys seem to take this a little too seriously. It's like that Babylon 5 episode where there is a bloody war between two halfs of an alien race because one side has a green arm band and the other side has a different colored arm band.

Then again, I'm part of the WinCustomize 'mob' so hand me my arm band. lol.
Reply #30 Top
don't forget the frog tattoo...
Reply #31 Top
Dave...I have a 'Jafo' tattoo...stands for Opinionated , Ego-Centric, Old-Fart, Wincustomize Mobster, or 'OECOFWM'....that spells 'JAFO'....Spell checker

[Don't argue....I'm the spell-checker here]...
Reply #32 Top
frog, you've misrepresented pretty much everything i've said, even twisted my words to mean "that the real community is here".. gah, i'm disgusted. Really. You couldn't come up with legitimate points, so you made 'em up.

There is a real community. It's #skinnerz, like jesh said. It's also the mix of sites devoted to skinning. Yes, they disagree on various points. Find me a homogenous community, and I'll show you a still photo from "The Village of the Damned".

There's also a company portal site which claims to be part of this collection - or rather, they claim to -be- the collection now.

Ya'll want to be the community? Fine. You're the community, nothing else exists - enjoy the vacuum.
Reply #33 Top
Black and white/us them/group -thinking is evil and sad.

/me is and wishes not to be part of no "community"
Reply #34 Top
Hrm..I find Brad's last post ironic, considering the title of the thread.
You ask if there is a skin community, then go on to state imaginary points that segregate the regular users of this site from anyone who dares to have different ideals.

If there ever was a skinning community, there sure as hell isn't now - ask yourself why, Brad.
Reply #35 Top
Mr. shoggot, I spent about half an hour reading the comments on that other site. Who the hell are you to put down the site I enjoy spending time on? Calling Stardock evil. I think Frog's concerns are too amplified but they're not far off the mark.
Reply #36 Top
heh. shoggot's lack of introspection is amusing.

1st, emperor shoggot has declared that some irc channel is 'the communty'.

2nd, he says fb's twisted his words but just validated fb's point:

::quote::
'5) The community is an exclusive club in which the elites decide who is and isn't part of the community (i.e. "Everyone's equal but I decide which sites are 'community sites').'
::quote::
Reply #37 Top
cripes. look up sophisrty in the dictionary, will ya?

here's what I said: "There is a real community. It's #skinnerz, like jesh said. It's also the mix of sites devoted to skinning."

a) I was agreeing with someone - jesh made the point the the community, for him, is #skinnerz - and in many ways, it is. There's admins and users from all the major sites there, all the time.

Uh, except this one. Ya'll aren't banned or anything, so that ain't it... ah, wait, i forgot - it's not on a micro$oft certified $tardock server, maybe?

So, if brad wants to define community as attending all sites, interacting with the other sites, then yes, #skinnerz is about as close as it gets; it's not site specific, and it's been around for a few years. A lot longer than this site, btw. The fact that no wincusto users deign to communicate with us lesser-site dwellers is telling, eh?

Village of the damned indeed.
Reply #38 Top
uh, and in re: your "5)"... fb wasn't quoting me. you quoted frogboy quoting nobody. Damn glad I didn't do that & wind up looking like a jackass
Reply #39 Top
Now that I think about it, that really pisses me off. And I don't know who to blame. brad never stated those were my words - so can I get mad at him for attributing those "quotes" to me? No. Can I get mad at your lack of reading skills, that you couldn't tell that they weren't quotes of actual people, but just made up garbage? Guess not, that's not your fault really.

Who was your english teacher in grade school? I guess that's where the final blame has to lie.
Reply #40 Top
There's nothing unique about this 'community'. What you guys need is a good old fashion real world analogy to ground yourselves in.

Ever live in a small town for a long period of time? I do. Got the crappy 26.4k connection to prove it.

Our little town is a community of people. I don't know most of them. But I attend every school board meeting. And there is always petty bickering about issues that the rank and file person in the town could care less about. Who speaks for the community? Who represents the community?

It's a waste of time to worry. It's a waste of energy. There's no trophy or badge involved.

What I think Draginol/Frogboy gets annoyed with is the self-righteousness of some people. Shoggot's posts being the poster child examples of such self-righteousness.
Reply #41 Top
i guess i have to diagram this out so that you understand.

::frogboy says that the 'free beer' people, whatever the hell that means, believe that the 'community' is a tiny group determined by a set of elites.#::

ya with me shoggot? not confused yet?

then you say
::
There is a real community. It's #skinnerz, like jesh said. It's also the mix of sites devoted to skinning. Yes, they disagree on various points. Find me a homogenous community, and I'll show you a still photo from "The Village of the Damned".

There's also a company portal site which claims to be part of this collection - or rather, they claim to -be- the collection now.
::

you, a self appointed elite, say who is and isn't in the community. you then 'twist' fb's words into saying that he's trying to say wincustomize is 'the community' which he never said. he said that that was what you said on that other site. i don't know because i have better things to do than waste my time going through that crap.

you are an elitist shoggot. i don't remember voting you emperor.
Reply #42 Top
can't stop compulsion! already wasted 2 hours yesterday reading will go back and read the rest and say more.
Reply #43 Top
Personally, I think he just gets annoyed when anyone points out the corporate nature of this site.

So, anyone here pay for DesktopX? Did you know that it used to be a freeware app, until $tardock embraced & extended it? It was called Verona Desktop Enhancer - just try to find it, it's long gone. All traces wiped clean. Kinda like laying out the tarp before an execution, I guess.
Reply #44 Top
jayg: yes, please do read more. hopefully you haven't been fully brainwashed yet, there may be hope for you.

The $tardock umbilical -can- be cut; if it couldn't, there wouldn't be efx downloads still happening (they exist!) (Uhm, for those of you stuck in $tardock land, efx is a freeware window skinner - does what windowblinds does, albeit with fewer effects etc. WB is a fine app, and the added value, I think, does add up to the price of the app. Generally using efx instead of WB is more a statement of prinicple than a judgement of quality)
Reply #45 Top
good gawd the infantile thinking going on that site. it's giving me a headache. no wonder the admins there like you shoggot, birds of a feather.

after the obnoxious admin says he's 'deleting treetog's ass' you created a brand new post saying how proud you are of that guy. you're a real gem shoggot. apparently that site was once a leading site? what the hell happened to it?
Reply #46 Top
read the whole thing, bud. read your master's words there. he said quite a bit, and you enjoy your master's wisdom, right?

See him in his glory. Come back when sufficiently disgusted.
Reply #47 Top
and time for me to head home. I'll be back to check on your progress later - if you progress, that is. I'm beginning to doubt you have the ability.
Reply #48 Top
! Shoggot do you know how clueless you sound when you try to compare DesktopX to VDE? I used to use VDE. You apparently have never used DesktopX. It's like saying that Adobe Photoshop is free in the form of MSPaint.

Then you compare eFX to WindowBlinds? I used eFX before WindowBlinds and it's the same thing. You are really torpedoing your arguments Shoggot. Seriously you sound crazy.
Reply #49 Top
I see now. If you agree with Frogboy or disagree with Mr. Shoggot you are just a slave of Frogboy?

I guess I'm just a slave too then. Your assanine behavior, Mr. Shoggot is disgusting and childish.
Reply #50 Top
fuck, why do I have to say everything twice (or for brad, 5 or 6 times) before they get it?

"Uhm, for those of you stuck in $tardock land, efx is a freeware window skinner - does what windowblinds does, albeit with fewer effects etc. WB is a fine app, and the added value, I think, does add up to the price of the app. Generally using efx instead of WB is more a statement of prinicple than a judgement of quality) "

learn to -read-. I said WB was better. I said the reasons to use efx are -not- to be using a higher quality app.

and dude - VDE -became- desktopX. PS didn't come from mspaint; dx did come from vde.

also, I can still get mspaint, if i don't want PS (and god knows I don't. adobe's as bad as stardock). I can't get VDE anymore.