My rant -Is there REALLY a skin "community"?

I have been part of virtual communities for the past 15 years. I know what they are. I started out in the BBS world and we had a local area virtual community. It didn't have a name but we were all literally tied together by what was in the local phone exchange.

When the Internet came, I considered myself part of a larger community, the OS/2 community.

A community isn't necessarily homogenous but what makes something a "community" is the sense that it exceeds a certain threshold of closeness and that the majority of the participants have the same basic concept of what that community is.

But is there a "Skinning" community? I think not. Rather, there are several smaller communities with very distinct concepts of what that community is. I think there is a skeletal structure for a general skinning community but really, the communities are largely tied to the sites.

I think there is a Stardock community. And I think there is a WinCustomize community. I also think there is a DeviantART community as well as communities for each site. And I think there is some overlap.

But the overlap between these communities is often little to non existent in my opinion.

There is constant bickering over what actually IS the community. And I think a lot of that comes from such a diverse set of demographics. Look at the demograhpics of this site compared to say Customize.org. The average active participant here can legally drink alcohol in all states in the US and they have full time jobs.

When Skinz.org was at its height, I think there was an overall community, albeit a small one.

But I've become increasing frustrated, well let me be blunt, disgusted with certain parallel universe versions of the skin community. You have the anti-capitalists (I.e. "I haven't personally spent any real time contributing for the past year but I want to say that everything should be free! Rock on!"). You have the group that contributes some but does so out of ego-gratification (I.e. "I've done some modest work over the year and want to let you know that I"m king of the community and I will crush all those who oppose me! Worship me!"). I don't know which contigency is worse.

The former is definitely in full loudness this week in that Customize.org discussion on whether skin suites should be free or not.

And it really highlights this post's point - there is no single skin community. There are many competing visions. If I wrote a post "What do you think of people charging for skin suites" I think it's safe to say that the response would be overwhelmingly "Good for them!" here. But elsewhere you get the folks who think that it's okay for skin SITES to make money off of the work of skin authors but that skin authors should work for free. Skin authors are apparently to be slaves in this vision, slaves to skin sites who profit from their efforts.

I have gotten a real kick out of the "free beer" folks who have criticized WinCustomize because it's a "corporate site" (even though the most of the other sites are, just that in this case, our parent company is a software developer) yet this site has no banner ads, no pop ups, etc. I think it's GOOD for skin sites to make money. I think it's GOOD for them to have banner ads and whatever else they need to generate income. The difference though is that people, whoever they are, shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that selling a good or service is bad yet banner ads and pop up ads are okay. In all cases, the entity in question is trying to generate revenue to pay for those expenses.

My friend Jark took grief because he has set up a subscription service. Unbelievable. Grief from people who have contributed zilch. My friends Treetog/Alexandrie/Nuvem are taking grief because they want to charge a measely $10 in exchange for around TWENTY skins. My lunch cost more than $10 today. And of course, we're always taking grief from those who argue our software is free or that our software is doomed to be passed up by free alternatives (note to them: WB's kicking ass, people who can afford WB are choosing it over free alternatives).

Which brings me back to the beginning, there is no such thing as a single skin community. There are merely a confederation of communities, each thinking that they have the vision of what the skin community is.

I for one am thankful every day that this site, our news groups (check out news://news.stardock.com) have such wonderful cool people. I am thankful that many of the leaders of the other skin sites are so cool (I talk to Jark regularly, Scarebear is a great guy, and Chaz and I chat on IRC regularly and is a great guy too). But the events of the past few months have led me to basically stop caring what the other bitter nasty contigents think. At least in the sense of letting it dictate our actions.

Let the "free beer" folks complain and yell. Those who actually contribute are the ones whose opinions matter to me.

When we first started this site we took a lot of grief from the "free beer" folks and they eventually migrated elsewhere. I'm glad. I'm not interested in them. I don't consider them part of the community we all, together, have helped create. What we call that community doesn't matter. But it's our community. Created with care, kindness, and hard work. With people who respect each other and each other's efforts and are generous in heart. Ethically strong yet not overly judgemental of others. You guys are the type of people I want to be around. To be associated with.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day. Feel free to add yours.
39,096 views 121 replies
Reply #1 Top
Very well said, the maturity level on some people and the way some of them have been acting like they are the kings of the community has really been frustrating to me. I'm no artist but I love this community and think it is great that sites are now making it possible for the users to support it if they'd like to. I decided to buy the logica suite of skins because I think it is an awsome suite and I have allways loved alexandrie's and treetog's work. It allways saddens me that this happens and I hope it doesn't drive any of the great members of this community away.
Reply #2 Top
If you're glad the non-wincusto folks moved elsewhere and you're not interested in 'em, why post on their boards, brad? Hell, why get so involved as to suggest one of the admins step down?

Think someone coming here, and admin from another site, would be welcome to say, "frogboy should be removed as an admin"?

That's what you've done elsewhere, on sites you're not interested in.
Reply #3 Top
I think it's safe to say that the people we migrate towards are the ones we want to be around, the ones who have like interests. Not neccesarily the exact same interests, buts thats good cause it keep discussions interesting.

As for the term communities, perhaps the meaning changes depending on the situation. To the rest of the world, we (here at wincusto) are part of the general skinning community, and we probably choose to be associated that way generally. Then there are situations when the need to be more specific arises, and we prefer to be seperate from other sknning factions (deviantart, etc).

As well, as the "general" sknning community has grown to a very large size, it has become more difficult for individuals to identify with. That drives a need for "sub-Groups". It's easier to identify with a smaller, more specifically defined group.

Something to remember (all of us) is that occationally tempers and issues arise within the "general" skinning communities; sometimes between the smaller "individual" communities. The issues are often very heated at the moment. But usually they do blow over. The trick is to not burn major bridges in the meantime, so as to be unwelcome virtually anywhere within the greater skinning community.

well, that a series of rambling thots on community anyway (incoherent and all
Reply #4 Top
Please don't twist my words. I am saying that I have no problem at all that the anti-commercial software people have left because I don't care whether they post here or not.

I didn't say I am not interested in the other sites. I do, afterall, post on other sites more so than virtually any other site admin. Certainly more so than you do. I just don't see myself as part of the same "community" as some of the core regulars of some of those sites.

People are free to call for my removal as a site admin. They obviously are not likely to be successful but they certainly have the right to ask.

And btw, I never said "non-WinCusto". Just that the "free beer" folks have moved elsewhere. You won't find skins with profane titles here or threads trashing someone because they (gasp) tried to recoup some of their time spent on skinning and running a site.
Reply #5 Top
Phar0e, well said.

I would say that as communities go, DeviantART is the best "community" site that I hang out on. It has features to foster that. Though I don't feel like I'm part of that community other than certain sub-groups (i.e. people like Jark and Attilla I relate to but most of the users there have completely different outlooks than I do).

Each site has its own community and there is some overlap. I enjoy posting on WinCustomize and reading posts because of the maturity and kindness. Even when there's a debate or argument it's handled in a mature, thoughtful, rational way. A user doesn't have to worry about coming on and getting "flamed" here (generally).

Me and Paxx can disagree on a wide range of issues but I know Paxx is honorable, intelligent, and mature and that our debates are just that - intellectual discussions.

And we all have a few key - core things in common. We don't limit what can have value. We use what works (i.e. we don't say commercial is better than freeware or that freeware is better than commercial).

Anyway, I'm rambling. Time for bed.
Reply #6 Top
moderating profane titles, hell, it's your sitek, that's your right as owner. speaking of owners, hrm, yes, people -could- call for you to step down, but it'd be at your whim. being king is good, eh? The site could burn around your ears, and you could play the lyre...

But, where's this thread you speak of, bashing people for making a buck? I've seen a thread bashing advertising in a non-advertising forum, but I haven't seen this thread you describe.
Reply #7 Top
Here's what I just don't understand about these so-called "Free Beer" types, and I really do hope someone can explain it to me. Computers are expensive, anywhere between 1 and 3 thousand dollars. Then you start adding things like printers, scanners, UPS, modems, things not easily stolen, and you are talking quite a bit of money. Then add a connection at 20 - 60 dollars per month for most people and again not easily stolen. So why is 20 for WB, 20 for a CD, 12 for a T-shirt, 50 for OD, or 10 for a suite of skins such a big deal?

Seriously... Someone must know
Reply #8 Top
Shoggot - have you READ the thread on Custo completley?

Here's the link, I am content that others reading this can make their own conclusions:

http://www.customize.org/forum/973

The "ad in a screenshot" is only part of that discussion. The overall concept of whether it's okay to sell skins is heavily disucssed as well.

BTW, skinz.org used to be the #1 place to post ads in screenshots. Every app developer used to use/abuse it with screenshots of the latest feature in their app (I used to use/abuse it as well). They're desktop screenshots, whether the items in them are free or not should be irrelevant. It is up to the site in question, but the way it was handled by a particular admin there was deplorable and I'm not afraid of saying that publicly. That's because I don't think that admin is represenative of the site, a site I have been on almost as long as you have (and longer than anyoen else posting there).
Reply #9 Top
hell, i -wrote- most of that thread, it seems

skinz had ads in screenshots - yes, i guess we did. custo ain't skinz, and is, obviously, less tolerant. bully for them; that's their stance, and I applaud 'em for having it, and having the gumption to stick by it.

I'd reiterate my point about rudeness: as long as its against someone you dislike, you find it acceptable; otherwise, you don't. Back when I had to ban users from the message board for requesting warez (no correlation between the two infractions is meant to be drawn, dammit. don't try to twist this again), I could be rude, mocking, insulting, etc until the cows came home - and you, personally you, would back me up, even. I was a defender of shareware to you, I guess - I dunno. I just find warez distasteful. Point is, the users were happy with my rudeness, because they shared my opinions.

Now, you don't agree w/ miriku's stance - so, his rudeness in action strikes you badly. Well, at skinz, posting warez requests was a naughty thing and got you banned - and there wasn't any notice to that effect for a long, long time; it was added as an afterthought. At custo, posting advertisements to the screenshot section gets... wait for the major sin... the screenshot deleted. He didn't ban anyone, he didn't delete a single skin. And the crowd, mostly people from the admin list at this site, crucified 'im.

Custo isn't your site. You don't like how it's run? leave. No one held a gun to your heads to upload there. So, it's your own fault if you didn't investigate the site before uploading - me, I'm a bit cautious about where I upload stuff... I like to know how it'll be used, whether the admins look at it, etc. What kinda comments, if any, I can expect. Whether I can delete my own stuff. What kinda copyright protections exist.

Don't blame custo for having its own, different-than-yours set of rules.
Reply #10 Top
You are assuming that one admin == Custo. miriku != Custo. Other admins there have already publicly said that they are disgusted with him.

/me is really going to bed soon.. HONEST!
Reply #11 Top
I'm assuming that the one admin who seems to do most of the work is the lead admin. I doubt i'm far wrong.

It'll be a true shame if I am, the skinning sites need an honest person like him around.
Reply #12 Top
Hell, I need to be at work in, uh, 3.5 hours. Sleep's less important that protecting a good person from a rampaging mob invited to the party.
Reply #13 Top
Shog - I'll send you the voodoo doll of me. That way when you're dragging yourself out of bed, you can whack it on the table.

Just so that we're clear, even if the feeling isn't mutual, I do LIKE you, Shog. I just don't agree with you one bit. But in written discussions, it is often hard to differentiate ones feelings from ones opinions.
Reply #14 Top
Ok, some questions, since I don't know much about Custo's structure: How many admins are there? Is Miriku the owner of the site? What do the other admins think about what he did? If most disagree, then why should anybody say that what he did is Custo's policy?

Jorge Coelho
NextSTART 2.80 - A user interface you can actually use!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies
IRC Chat: #winstep on AustNet
Reply #15 Top
There seem to be a lot of admins over there. But Miriku isn't the owner. Just one of the more recent active ones.
Reply #16 Top
rampaging mob? hehehe... c'mon now this night has been crazy enough already, let's hope that sleep will bring some perspective back to us all...

goodnight and *peace*
Reply #17 Top
btw JC - you were totally rational throughout the whole thing, and made a lot of very good points... must be something in your water...
Reply #18 Top
Thanks David... More likelly something in my vodka redbull than in my water. Hic!

I loved China's reply, btw. Still laughing about it. lol

Jorge Coelho
NextSTART 2.80 - A user interface you can actually use!
http://www.winstep.net - Winstep Software Technologies
IRC Chat: #winstep on AustNet
Reply #19 Top
Brad, I posted on the admin board before seeing this thread.
I'll leave it there, though....

Shog, if ever I am disrespectful of a user here at Wincusto, please feel free to request my removal. I will be glad to go, as, unlike that junior admin at Custo, I value the reputation of this site and its members more than my place in it.

JCR...yes, you have to love China. She is so succinct with her feelings...

One more thing, Shog...
You are correct, absolutely correct. I do NOT like the way Customize.org is run, and I have left.
Like you, and Brad, I had been there quite a while too....since before skinz mk.1.

It was honestly disappointing for me personally to be deleting my LiteSTEP themes from there, where they were proudly displayed right beside the likes of Thug Life, and with a similar popularity rating too. When I started, that theme was 'IT' and some guy was making stuff called 'Scathe'. He was cool, too.

How quickly we all forget the groundswell of support for the old skinz.org in the face of ravages by eFront....how each and every single person now disgusted with the Custo admin's actions rallied to support the admins at Skinz.org simply because they were people deemed worthy of our respect for their deeds and actions in promoting skinning to the community at large....people like mian, toasty, Shoggot.....

As I said once before, I don't really need a history lesson, I'm an 'old-fart' who is part of it...
Reply #20 Top
Random thoughts:
1. Oh Christ, not here too...
2. Finally he has seen the light!
3. Free beer for everyone
4. What's with the clique behaviour (not pointed at anyone)?
5. When I was young everything was better
Reply #21 Top
I just spent an hour going through that thread. I'd like it back, thankyouverymuch There's only so much pretentious, "gimmegimmegimme" bullcrap a guy can sit through.

Glad I didn't post, as I'm sure I would have been labeled a "stardock kid," as well. Maybe SD should put out tshirts with the moniker

A couple thoughts, with apologies for bringing out Mr. Horse for another beating:

Their policy is their own, and they're welcome to enforce it. However, it really got on my nerves how they treated the PX crew as if they were mere opportunists. With all the man-hours treetog, Alexandrie, and nuvem have put into giving us dozens upon dozens of free skins, you'd think miriku and his cohorts would look the other way and let a small, unintrussive ad slip by. And even if they didn't, you'd think they wouldn't cuss Renato out in public. He deserves AT LEAST that much.

As for the "skinning community," going by what I've seen so far of it, I'd rather stay here in the "Stardock community," where I can be among people whose opinions I can respect, even when I disagree 100% with them. Maturity and class seem to be in short supply elsewhere (not necessarily commenting on the current feud, just making a general oobservation based on the experiences of the last couple of months.)
Reply #22 Top
i want the 2 hours of my morning back. i have a headache now. very amusing posts. shog you should take a philosophy class. you inadvertently proved that the only gen skin community is the 'wincustomize mob'. the guys here seem to be the only ones who hang out on multiple sites and have a cohesive vision of what skinning is all about. long live the wincustomize mob!
Reply #23 Top
That's an interesting observation, Jay.

I don't know about anyone else but I came across that thread on Custo because I visit Custo daily. So Shoggot has basically argued that WinCustomize people are the ones who actually visit and participate on multiple skin sites and have similar viewpoints on the rights of skin authors and the relationship between skin authors and skin sites.
Reply #24 Top
? Did Froggy say he was giving out free beer?

/me feels stupid for paying for his beer all these years....
Reply #25 Top
People with common interesting must be cooperators, but in the reality they never are. You can see that everywhere, in all human activities.

The all Humanity suffers from the symptoms of antagonism and egoism; the collaboration is always in the minimum level.

The result of this behavior is:
No strong communities, only weak ones.

The "Yes man" people are very sympathetic to the leaders, but they are always less-charismatic ones. If you have voice, then you are the enemy and not the cooperator who is trying to improve the subject of the common interesting.

Everybody are right, from their point of view, and everything that exists in this planet has many points of views, it is time to have this in mind, when we start argue with the others, it is better to learn from them than argue with them, even the most ignorant has he's point.

This is our nature, I know, but as long as we live, we are still having chances to improve our self's.



...my 2 cents