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My rant -Is there REALLY a skin "community"?

My rant -Is there REALLY a skin "community"?

I have been part of virtual communities for the past 15 years. I know what they are. I started out in the BBS world and we had a local area virtual community. It didn't have a name but we were all literally tied together by what was in the local phone exchange.

When the Internet came, I considered myself part of a larger community, the OS/2 community.

A community isn't necessarily homogenous but what makes something a "community" is the sense that it exceeds a certain threshold of closeness and that the majority of the participants have the same basic concept of what that community is.

But is there a "Skinning" community? I think not. Rather, there are several smaller communities with very distinct concepts of what that community is. I think there is a skeletal structure for a general skinning community but really, the communities are largely tied to the sites.

I think there is a Stardock community. And I think there is a WinCustomize community. I also think there is a DeviantART community as well as communities for each site. And I think there is some overlap.

But the overlap between these communities is often little to non existent in my opinion.

There is constant bickering over what actually IS the community. And I think a lot of that comes from such a diverse set of demographics. Look at the demograhpics of this site compared to say Customize.org. The average active participant here can legally drink alcohol in all states in the US and they have full time jobs.

When Skinz.org was at its height, I think there was an overall community, albeit a small one.

But I've become increasing frustrated, well let me be blunt, disgusted with certain parallel universe versions of the skin community. You have the anti-capitalists (I.e. "I haven't personally spent any real time contributing for the past year but I want to say that everything should be free! Rock on!"). You have the group that contributes some but does so out of ego-gratification (I.e. "I've done some modest work over the year and want to let you know that I"m king of the community and I will crush all those who oppose me! Worship me!"). I don't know which contigency is worse.

The former is definitely in full loudness this week in that Customize.org discussion on whether skin suites should be free or not.

And it really highlights this post's point - there is no single skin community. There are many competing visions. If I wrote a post "What do you think of people charging for skin suites" I think it's safe to say that the response would be overwhelmingly "Good for them!" here. But elsewhere you get the folks who think that it's okay for skin SITES to make money off of the work of skin authors but that skin authors should work for free. Skin authors are apparently to be slaves in this vision, slaves to skin sites who profit from their efforts.

I have gotten a real kick out of the "free beer" folks who have criticized WinCustomize because it's a "corporate site" (even though the most of the other sites are, just that in this case, our parent company is a software developer) yet this site has no banner ads, no pop ups, etc. I think it's GOOD for skin sites to make money. I think it's GOOD for them to have banner ads and whatever else they need to generate income. The difference though is that people, whoever they are, shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that selling a good or service is bad yet banner ads and pop up ads are okay. In all cases, the entity in question is trying to generate revenue to pay for those expenses.

My friend Jark took grief because he has set up a subscription service. Unbelievable. Grief from people who have contributed zilch. My friends Treetog/Alexandrie/Nuvem are taking grief because they want to charge a measely $10 in exchange for around TWENTY skins. My lunch cost more than $10 today. And of course, we're always taking grief from those who argue our software is free or that our software is doomed to be passed up by free alternatives (note to them: WB's kicking ass, people who can afford WB are choosing it over free alternatives).

Which brings me back to the beginning, there is no such thing as a single skin community. There are merely a confederation of communities, each thinking that they have the vision of what the skin community is.

I for one am thankful every day that this site, our news groups (check out news://news.stardock.com) have such wonderful cool people. I am thankful that many of the leaders of the other skin sites are so cool (I talk to Jark regularly, Scarebear is a great guy, and Chaz and I chat on IRC regularly and is a great guy too). But the events of the past few months have led me to basically stop caring what the other bitter nasty contigents think. At least in the sense of letting it dictate our actions.

Let the "free beer" folks complain and yell. Those who actually contribute are the ones whose opinions matter to me.

When we first started this site we took a lot of grief from the "free beer" folks and they eventually migrated elsewhere. I'm glad. I'm not interested in them. I don't consider them part of the community we all, together, have helped create. What we call that community doesn't matter. But it's our community. Created with care, kindness, and hard work. With people who respect each other and each other's efforts and are generous in heart. Ethically strong yet not overly judgemental of others. You guys are the type of people I want to be around. To be associated with.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day. Feel free to add yours.
39,101 views 121 replies
Reply #101 Top
Hehe - thats a fine example of how things can be perceived according to your point of veiw

If that's a subtle dig at me Paxx, I have nothing against commercial software, or people selling their skins on their private site, and have never said otherwise. I do, however, think that Joe Coder, sitting at home producing apps for the hell of it, is getting less and less credit/recognition, and hence, incentive to carry on doing so.

Remember the threads at Skinz? I'm developing this, could you give me feedback, or beta test it for me, etc, etc...The only one I recall recently was at skinbase by Redllar, but before that I hadn't seen one for months.
I'm not blinkered enough to say freeware = good, payware = bad. I don't particularly like being labelled a "free beer" campaigner, or being told to "get a life, or a job" just because I appreciate what Joe Coder is doing, but if that is a consequence of my beliefs (which it has been here), I can live with it. I just don't want to see Joe Coder giving up unrewarded, which would leave us all with a lot less to play with.
If I know you as well as I think i do, I'm sure you'll agree
Reply #102 Top
Integer I don't think that the case is that the Joe Coders are not being appreciated or noticed it's just the Joe Coders are being more quiet these days maybe and are not as active as they were in the past, I see redllar is back and active, and jier & 10c seem to be active again, but neophile and some others are not anymore...

the fights should not be against the ppl that make their living by selling their apps, but rather these ppl should be motivating the Joe Coders to "Get busy" and give the others some strong competition! I don't see that happening all I see is a buncha cry babies trying to change something that will never change unless they use "their energies" to change it instead of crying about it!

Joe Coder "knows" the sites to hang out at if they want support while working on making their apps...

http://www.skinbase.org
http://www.customize.org
http://www.skinz.org
http"//www.lotsofskins.com
Reply #103 Top
Of course I agree, if you read the other thread, you will see it.
The point of my short post was exactly as you've pinned it out, as I knew you would, I have only great respect for your intelligence. Depending on which side of the fence you're standing you're likely to see only that one side, although people from both sides are looking at exactly the same fence. It's actually quite ironic that in just about every fight, conflict, war, both sides always feel victimized. Usually, at the end on every fight, there are never any winner, just victims on both sides.

This particular argument, for some reason, has turned away from its original raison-d'etre, to become a pro-Stardock/anti-Stardock campaign. I don't consider myself on Stardock's camp, although I am a fan of one of their products (Windowblinds).
For some reason, Shoggot brought that topic in the discussion, for a reason that yet eludes me. Here, there was a friend of ours that was been publicly humiliated, and because we stood up to defend him, suddently we were Stardock's mob? I fail to see the logic in here.

But anyway, as you see, every side has its own version of the same facts, both of which are quite noble in their intentions.
Reply #104 Top
"I don't see that happening all I see is a buncha cry babies trying to change something that will never change unless they use "their energies" to change it instead of crying about it!"

I agree entirely Doreen, which is why I am doing something about it. For the last month or so, I have been "using my energies", (and spending my money), doing something about it. You will see the results very soon. I look forward to your participation

And Paxx - once again, we agree
Reply #105 Top
welllll bring it onnnn!
look forward to seeing this Integer
Reply #107 Top
I want to chime in a bit of support for Integer. I often agree with JayG but there is often a tendancy to over simplify. Just because Integer doesn't always agree with me doesn't make him a "anti-commercial" software person.

It should be noted that Integer is a leading themer for Hoverdesk, a commercial product.

Issues of politics are as complicated as the people who are involved in them. As Emily said, yes, we take all this pidly stuff too seriously but that's only because we care.

Must of the "anti-Stardock" angst I suspect comes purely from a feeling of overall imbalance. I've been in the customization field longer than most so I've seen what must be, to Shoggot and others who feel like him, a gradually increasing influence of the "commercial interests" which Stardock tends to be fairly representative of. That 2 years ago, from their point of view, there was a vibrant freeware community and that over time, the "pros" have come in and supplanted that and taken away the incentive of many would-be freeware authors. Afterall, no self respecting developer wants to work on something they know won't be anywhere near as polished or complete as what some other guy has made. Whether it's "free" or not is usually a distinction only end users make, not developers.

It is important to appreciate that perspective if one is going to try to have a reasonable discussion about it rather than just flame it.

In 1999, Stardock has WindowBlinds and IconPackager which had lots of competition
In 2000 DesktopX showed up
In 2001, WebBlinds, ObjectBar, WinStyles showed up, they (us) put up a skin site, and competition in the other areas have wound down a great deal.

To a certain percentage of people, that looks pretty threatening. It looks like some corporation is coming in and "Taking over". It is akin to those who see their small town's unique shops and restraunts close down and the big corporate conglomerates come in and take over with their Walmarts and Burger Kings taking away what was unique about that small town.

That is, what I think, is partially the perspective of the "Stardock is evil" mentality.

Understanding it and agreeing with it are two different things. As I said, people and issues are far more complex than that. That is what led me to create this topic in the first place. The "free beer" contigency have tended to put things in such black and white perspectives. They're the ones who look at those who try to earn a living from what they do as "selling out". It's an over simplification. Shoggot's views are over simplified on this in my opinion and I believe it's because he's not kept up on how things have progressed. Stardock isn't Walmart or Microsoft. WinCustomize is a quasi-charity created by Stardock to "give something back" to the community, not as a beach head of control (simply because there are limits on what Stardock will to do give back doesn't make it a blunt instrument of control, it's not black and white like that). Stardock hires people from the community as a way of supporting it.

If one wants to really over simplify things, it comes down to that people like me think that people being able to make a living on their hobby is a good thing whereas other people (such as l0c/jier) believe that people should have "real jobs" and keep their hobby their hobby.
Reply #108 Top
Brad, that's the best description of the truth I've seen yet in all the jabbing going on. McDonald's is a good example of a predator corporation. Read the book "Fast Food Nation" if you don't know the details. Microsoft is another great example of predatory corporate policies. Stardock? Give me a break... Stardock has provided exceptional customer support, community support and great customizing software. So has WinStep and Hoverdesk. I don't see any difference between the three except the for the size of the companies (which I know very little about) but it seems as Stardock gets more customers, grows more successful, more benefits are channeled back to us, the users. If WindowBlinds has to be shareware - I'm glad it's put out by a company like Stardock. If there's gonna be a skins site that's sponsored by a company, I can't think of a better way it could exist than what we have here at wc.

Once Deskmod gets up we'll have more diversity and more locations than ever before. I love that. Each site has it's own personality (I like them all). The thing that needs to be credited is the time and money that goes into keeping them alive. And the generosity of the owners, coders, admins and support at every site. Leave it at that, if you like it somewhere better than another place (almost everyone does) be glad it's there and be glad the others exist too. There wouldn't be any sites if only one had to try to please and support the entire scene.
Reply #109 Top
Thanks David. Of course, will people visit Deskmod even though it's run on an "evil" Stardock provide server?

Wouldn't that be ironic if some day on deskmod there are posts saying how evil Stardock is while their posts are saved on a Stardock owned machine.

But back to your main point, people tend to want to use equivalents for something (ala Stardock = Microsoft or whatever). Life isn't quuite that black and white.
Reply #110 Top
Yet I see black and white thinking on all sides of the fence. Left, right, above, below, in between. Urgh, why do people think so linear...

The real topic was a mix of "should we allow advertising through screenshots", "you insulted my friends", "commercialism is evil" (which lead to) "Stardock is evil", "my site is better than yours", "we are better than you, you are beneath us", plus a bit of bitching and moaning.

So everyone was on different wavelengths, as usual. There's no constant line running through it all.

By the way, I doubt DeskMod's return will have a major impact on this "community", it always was a different, separate breed of people over there.
Reply #111 Top
Im sorry to say this, but do you people realize how damn stupid your making yourself look?this goes for both wincustomize and customize.org Over 300 flames in a single thread.All hell breaks loose and why??...cause a screenshot got deleted....a mere screenshot.nothing more and nothing less.....makes perfect sense doesn't it?????
Reply #112 Top
Blazer, personally it's mostly because of the way it was done not because it was done.
Reply #113 Top
about the most recent corporate analogy things.. i agree with that picture too.. but to clarify

microsoft is the big fast food place
stardock, winstep, hd, etc. are the locally owned little shops
all the freeware devs are the guys experimenting to perfect the ideal burger, having lots of friends over for cookouts all the time

yeah.. i like analogies..
Reply #114 Top
hehe I "Still" dont get it???

if ppl get upset about the Free skinz VS the pay for Skinz

then make killer Free Skinz and blow the others out of the water

if ppl get upset about the Free apps VS the pay for Apps

then make killer Free Apps that blow the others out of the water

/me thinks ppl will run to Free Killer skinz & Apps w/ no prob at all
Reply #115 Top
and no one should really be too concerned about when and where these two things reside cuz the better one will win either way!
Reply #116 Top
i don't know.. i'm just getting back from a weekend out of state and going through all this last night and this morning. a few very basic things are evident to me:

what kiriku(?) said about treetog was juvenile, disrespectful, unbecoming of anyone claiming to be an admin of a respectable website, and frankly just very obtuse.

free? yeah, everybody loves free, but what's free? is the computer they create skins on free? is the electricity free? was the web connection they used to upload it free? give me a break. anybody hoping to convince me about this great and glorious 'world of free' has mistaken me for someone far more naive than i am. c'mon, you pay for the water you drink.
Reply #117 Top
integer: i guess i stand corrected. my apologies.

r u sure they're the 'free beer' crowd? cause most of them are too young to drink. shoggot is probably the only guy posting over 21 years of age. it's a lot like a host & parasite relationship. the parasites are moaning that the unlimited free lunch might be coming to an end. but what can they do? nothing. they don't make the apps or the skins or the icons or the themes. maybe they should get off their asses and start doing something instead of just moaning about what others do.
Reply #119 Top
I'm suprised that OS makers out there haven't enlisted PixStudios to do their UIs yet. Dammit that suite is just beautiful.

I'm just wondering personally how easy it would be for me give away something like that for free. (thats assuming I was capable of making something that good.. not yet.. not by a long shot. )

Reply #121 Top
I appreciate your support Brad, but I'd like to say that calling me a "leading Hoverdesk themer" is doing an injustice to the real HvD themers. I have only ever created 2 HvD themes

I also appreciate you apology JayG, but regarding the rest of your post, I'd be more than willing to compare my skins/wallpapers/themes/contributions to the "community", with your own...