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Gay WHAT???

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Gay WHAT???

from JoeUser Forums
What is wrong with this world? Am I just stupid or was the U.S. Constituition written while under the influence of a God fearing belief?

If the constition was written under those principles than why do the people who are also God fearing, have to refrain from using his holy name in public? People honestly wanted to change our 200+ year old pledge just because it includes the word God. And what's even worse is that I have to sit back and listen to people curse while using God's name. Maybe I'm just a crazy christian that is too blind to no the difference, but I don't think that's it.

I have the strangest feeling our forefathers didn't mean that you can't practice religion in the U.S. just that you can't FORCE your religion upon someone. Saying the pledge is not forcing christian ethics upon anyone, it's just asking Americans to have some respect for their country.

Gays can get married, legally, now. All I have to say about this one is, keep them out of court rooms and churches when doing this, because the church is (or at least mine is) against homosexual marriages. Then you have the court rooms which have the american flag right in your face.

If you haven't noticed yet, I'm a christian and I can't stand the fact that we are letting people like this get away with what they are doing. You don't see me going around yelling at people for not praying, so why yell at me FOR praying? I'm not even speaking for crying out loud.

Oh, and then there's schools... This sucks big one's! You don't have to pledge anymore and the principal can't ask you to take time to pray and/or meditate. I remember, in 3rd grade, we would always do morning pledge and then the moment of silence for prayer or meditation. It was harmless. If you don't want to pray, you had time to sit and think. If you wanted to pray and not feel weird you could. Suddenly, out of nowhere we weren't aloud to do those things anymore. Now, to pray you look like a freak and everyone thinks your a loser that doesn't deserve to have friends.

So, what am I? Am I an idiot for even thinking that God is good? Maybe that's why we're having so much trouble in this world now. People won't accept that God isn't a word to bind you into one religion, but a word to symbolize the greatness of our country... if you won't accept it as a holy being. Or perhaps I'm a psychotic homophobe who can't even function in the same world as a homosexual or bisexual (no real dif.).

Capt. over and out!
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Reply #201 from JoeUser Forums Top
Actually, you know, you guys are not "argueing" your case very well anymore. Now you've agreed with me while saying you don't agree.

"Are we going to say now that God created people He finds offensive? WHY would he do that? If God finds them offensive, then wouldn't He make sure no one was ever born that way? And yet He doesn't...they are born every day....so there MUST be a reason."

The reason is because MAN chose to be this way. God hasn't created anything that is not perfect. It's all been man's doings. He didn't create people he finds offensive, it's the exact oposite. Man "created" people that God doesn't find favor in.

Capt. over and out!
Reply #202 from JoeUser Forums Top
So if people were born gay and God thinks it's so bad then why would he make them be born gay??

That's my whole POINT, Ashley. Are we going to say now that God created people He finds offensive? WHY would he do that? If God finds them offensive, then wouldn't He make sure no one was ever born that way? And yet He doesn't...they are born every day....so there MUST be a reason.


Poetmom: I'm agreeing with you on this one, but I think that Ashley and Brandon are saying that, in fact, that people aren't born gay, that they choose to be gay. We are all using the same underlying reasoning, that God wouldn't create something that he wholly disapproves of, but we are drawing two separate conclusions. The first, which Brandon and Ashley support, is that God doesn't make anyone gay, people choose to be gay. The second, which you and I ascribe to, is that God doesn't find gays to be offensive.

This of course merely leads us back to the argument about whether or not it is a choice. Someone wrote a blog recently that summed it up quite well--if it is a choice, each one of us should be able to pinpoint the moment when we chose to be either heterosexual or homosexual. It's a big decision, so it should stand out in our minds, like the moment in time when we chose which college we were going to go to, or some other highly significantly event. Chances are you can't remember choosing to be straight, because it is not a choice.

Brandon: What you are calling arrogance, is really self-righteousness. I'm sure you can find many a passage in the Bible that will urge you to work to quell this tendency. It is neither becoming or helpful in your pursuit to spread the word of God.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #203 from JoeUser Forums Top

Because the other religious people pray too.


Um, actually, I don't.  I don't have a god or a deity.


Ask yourself this:  would your god have wanted you to take an F on a test about evolution?  I think not.  That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, to be honest.

Reply #204 from JoeUser Forums Top
Actually, you know, you guys are not "argueing" your case very well anymore. Now you've agreed with me while saying you don't agree.


No, you misunderstand, you made this point:

Are we going to say now that God created people He finds offensive? WHY would he do that? If God finds them offensive, then wouldn't He make sure no one was ever born that way? And yet He doesn't...they are born every day....so there MUST be a reason.


This we agree with, but you never state what your solution is, what your "reason" is.

NOW you say that your solution is that God doesn't make these people this way, they become this way. And this, we do not agree with at all, so now that you've revealed your explanation to be "They choose to be gay though God doesn't want them to." We no longer agree.
Reply #205 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, you know what? I'm through with this article, the only thing coming from it now is a bunch of people who think that by changing what I'm saying is going to make them right then they'll do it. That quote above is nearly exactly how I see it yet you seem to think it's saying some of us are born gay. The quote, if seriously written, points towards something happening after birth to make someone gay...

Capt. over and out!
Reply #206 from JoeUser Forums Top
Are you completely dense to the idea of a rhetorical question? You wrote "Why would God create people whom he finds offensive?" I assumed, as did others who share my view, that it was a rhetorical question. Why would he? He wouldn't, hence he must not find homosexuals offensive.

This was our interpretation, even though it was not what you meant.

Now we know that you meant: "He didn't create them offensive, they chose to become offensive." And now that we know that this was your meaning, we no longer agree.

I'm not changing around what you said, but you complained that:

Now you've agreed with me while saying you don't agree.


We agreed with the first part of your statement, because we hadn't heard the second. That's all I'm trying to explain to you.
Reply #207 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am a 19 year old lesbian and I have read the Bible long and hard enough to know that it is interpreted in so many ways. I hope that gay people get to marry soon because it wasn't that long ago that black people were prevented from marrying. I don't believe in discrimination of any sort. Many homophobes use the argument that if you allow gay people to marry, then you'll have to let people marry their pets. Has anyone ever heard their pet say "I do"? The difference between homosexual/heterosexual relationships and relationships with animals is that there is no consensus with animals. Two consenting people are needed for a relationship. I don't apologize for my homosexuality because I have accepted it as a part of life. I am who I am and my homosexuality is not a choice. It has never been a choice because nothing makes me want to have a relationship with a man. I love women because I think they are beautiful. Nothing can change that.
Reply #208 from JoeUser Forums Top

am who I am and my homosexuality is not a choice. It has never been a choice because nothing makes me want to have a relationship with a man. I love women because I think they are beautiful. Nothing can change that.


Another quote directly from the proverbial horses mouth.


Cornbread, consider this:  You were born straight, right?  You have never had any doubts about your sexuality whatsoever?  You didn't 'choose' to be straight, that's just the way you are?  Then why is it do hard for you to accept that some people are born gay?  It's the same situation:  they didn't choose to be gay, that's just who they are.

Reply #209 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ashley...don't you see the double standard here? One second you are saying you are for the separation of church and state, and the next you are wanting to set up a praying time in school. Unless you're talking about an entirely voluntary thing at lunchtime, for ONLY those students who WANT to be part of it, you are, in fact, advocating the combining of church and state.


No, I like the idea of praying time at lunch. Just because I know the people I sit with would be all for it. I think that church and state should be separated just as an idea. Maybe it would make people a wee bit happier, who knows?

The reason is because MAN chose to be this way. God hasn't created anything that is not perfect. It's all been man's doings. He didn't create people he finds offensive, it's the exact oposite. Man "created" people that God doesn't find favor in


This is exactly what I was trying to get across!!! Thank you so much Brandon!!

Cornbread, consider this: You were born straight, right? You have never had any doubts about your sexuality whatsoever? You didn't 'choose' to be straight, that's just the way you are? Then why is it do hard for you to accept that some people are born gay? It's the same situation: they didn't choose to be gay, that's just who they are.


Why would God create a person that was gay if he thinks of being gay a sin?? So how on earth are they born gay? You can't be. When you are little such of the age of maybe 2 or 3 you don't know wether you like guys or girls. You don't know who you want to like and you can't make that choice untill you have hormones. Why are me and Capt. the only ones who think this? If I only had the answer.....

~carebear~
Reply #210 from JoeUser Forums Top

When you are little such of the age of maybe 2 or 3 you don't know wether you like guys or girls

That's just not true.  If you ask any person of homosexual persuasion when they first had an inkling that they might be gay, the majority of them say they've always known, or have known since childhood.  Homosexuality doesn't happen all of a sudden when you get hormones.  It's not like puberty. You have hormones before you're born.  They're always there.  That's what makes you male or female.  It's the pituitary gland that starts puberty and the hormonal rush, but the hormones have always been there. 

 

Are you seriously trying to tell me that everyone's born good?  That people CHOOSE to be evil?  I have to disagree.  I think that some people are inherently evil.  I've seen some horrific stuff, and you know what?  Some of that horrific stuff has been done in the name of your god and of your religion.  Remind me to tell you sometime about the child abuse case that took place under the banner of 'christian discipline'. 

Reply #211 from JoeUser Forums Top
So... many.... posts... Can't... read... it... all...

To all out there reading this post, who understand where it is going, and know the gist of all the conversations on it... My hat is off for you.

Let me say that I don't feel that Christianity is a religion. I consider Christianity to be a relationship with Jesus. Knowing, and believing what Jesus did for you, and professing your faith in that belief is all that is required for our "religion" to work.

Doctrine and dogma are a beast of a problem for some Christians, because sometimes they just fall into the woodwork and just go with what the preacher says. I believe that you have to read for yourself, create your own opinions, and grow in your faith.

To stray from the point a little, my parent's Sunday School class recently decided to read The DaVinci Code, and some of the members decided to try and pick it apart because it "wasn't true." To me, this seemed ridiculous since you have to take The DaVinci Code as it is... It's a piece of fiction.

To try to get back to where I was going, I figure someone might say something about the Bible not being true. Everything you read in the Bible is open to interpretation. In fact, if you want to get down to it, some Christians and Jews may not believe that the Noah's Ark story is true. And really, that's ok. Does that one story make your faith any less? If someone found out that Jesus had children, would that change your faith in him as the Son of God? If that could, you need to examine your faith.

I believe that gay, lesbian, and bi people can be Christian. Sexual orientation doesn't affect faith in the sense that you can believe the same things if you are gay or straight. Jesus loves all people, regardless of sexual orientation. Do you think that a gay person couldn't get into heaven because they were gay? Is this kind of thing going to keep Jesus from loving you just as much as he loves a straight person? No, it's not.

Saying that being gay or straight is inborn is bologna, IMO. I think that a person, while in early developmental stages, can change from one to the other. I'm sure this has something to do with traumas, experiences, and maybe even what foods you eat. Not exactly sure what does it, but something does it. I honestly don't believe that you are born gay. I think it has to do with early life development.

Fellow teens---- Attention! Please, please make your posts clearer. Sometimes I'm having problems trying to figure out what you mean, and I'm sure all of the people on here are having some of the same problems as myself.

I hope I got everything in there that I wanted to say, and I hope it's not too confusing.

Peace,

Beebes
Reply #212 from JoeUser Forums Top
This seems like all it is is arguing or whatever you want to call it. Also everyone is born the way they are they make descisions to make them good or bad.

~blondelife~
Reply #213 from JoeUser Forums Top
Are you seriously trying to tell me that everyone's born good? That people CHOOSE to be evil? I have to disagree. I think that some people are inherently evil. I've seen some horrific stuff, and you know what? Some of that horrific stuff has been done in the name of your god and of your religion. Remind me to tell you sometime about the child abuse case that took place under the banner of 'christian discipline'.


Well now that we're on to the subject of being born evil or good. I don't believe that you are born evil or good at the time. You choose to be evil or good. We can all chose what is right and what is wrong. And if you choose to be evil then you are choosing to do wrong. God is not just going to make you evil. He does not like evil and he does not like gay people. So this comes back to my original statement. God does not make your born gay if he thinks it's a sin and evil to do so. It even says in the bible that evil and gay are both sins. And yeah I know some Christians do bad things that are evil, but you see maybe at first they chose to do good. Then they thought and changed and said that they wanted to be evil. Or they could just be pretending to be a goody little Christian child to kind of fool people and then turn out to really be evil. Yeah my religion seems to get blamed the most for doing horrible stuff. Such as preists doing child molesting and rape. But you see they could've been a preist to be a cover up. To make people think that just because they are preists that they wouldn't do anything like that. They are out there trying to fool people, just so they can get their hands on little children and young women. They just think they can fool you.

~carebear~
Reply #214 from JoeUser Forums Top
Some of that horrific stuff has been done in the name of your god and of your religion.


I doubt our religion has exclusive rights to that kind of thing.

But I do understand what you are trying to say. People do bad things... Individuals sometimes stray from what our religion tries to emphasize like the Golden Rule and love and peace. Remember that our faith had the Crusades and killed many people to "take back the holy land."

I'm not sure that any religion has clean hands, though.

Peace,

Beebes
Reply #215 from JoeUser Forums Top
I believe that gay, lesbian, and bi people can be Christian. Sexual orientation doesn't affect faith in the sense that you can believe the same things if you are gay or straight. Jesus loves all people, regardless of sexual orientation. Do you think that a gay person couldn't get into heaven because they were gay? Is this kind of thing going to keep Jesus from loving you just as much as he loves a straight person? No, it's not.


Yes of course, Jesus will love you no matter what. And nobody said that he's not going to. But in God's eyes it is wrong to be gay. It is a sin, and one of the worst. He will give forgiveness, but only if you go and confess your sin and once confessed you shouldn't just go out and do the same sin all over again. Well at least that's my opinion, but it seems i can't have my own or i'm going to get bashed or something.

Saying that being gay or straight is inborn is bologna, IMO. I think that a person, while in early developmental stages, can change from one to the other. I'm sure this has something to do with traumas, experiences, and maybe even what foods you eat. Not exactly sure what does it, but something does it. I honestly don't believe that you are born gay. I think it has to do with early life development.


Thank the Lord! Someone else finally believes us on this one Capt. For a minute there, i thought we were the only ones. (and no, this isn't ment to be one of those one-liners for all you folks who might think it is.)

~carebear~
Reply #216 from JoeUser Forums Top
a person, while in early developmental stages, can change [sexual orientation]


You don't know who you want to like and you can't make that choice until you have hormones


These statements are not necessarily compatible. As I posted a while ago, the "choices" that you make during the developmental stages have some effect upon your eventual sexuality. But you don't know, when you're making them, that they're going to have that effect. (And you're too young to understand it anyway.) So by the time you have to "choose" someone to like, the KIND of person (i.e. male or female) is already wired into your brain. Sure, you have a choice to like Brad instead of Gary, but you will automatically find gender X more attractive than gender Y.
Reply #217 from JoeUser Forums Top

It is a sin, and one of the worst.

I wrote an article about this months ago...is there a scale of sin?  Some kind of point system, with homicide at the top and lying at the bottom?  Where can I find this written in the bible?  I've looked, and I didn't see one.  I've always thought that sin is sin, that there wasn't a scorecard.

And who are we to look down our noses at people who sin?  Doesn't your faith teach that we are all sinners?  So who are you to tell another sinner that what they're doing is worse than what you're doing? Shouldn't you be more worried about the log in your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your neighbor's?

Reply #218 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wrote an article about this months ago...is there a scale of sin? Some kind of point system, with homicide at the top and lying at the bottom?


According to Catholicism, actually, there is. I forget how it goes, but it's something like venal (small stuff like lying or taking a cookie when your mom told you not to), cardinal (medium-to-large stuff), and deadly (the classic 7--lust, greed, pride, envy, etc. that are ingrained personal faults).
Reply #219 from JoeUser Forums Top
Are you seriously trying to tell me that everyone's born good? That people CHOOSE to be evil? I have to disagree. I think that some people are inherently evil. I've seen some horrific stuff, and you know what? Some of that horrific stuff has been done in the name of your god and of your religion. Remind me to tell you sometime about the child abuse case that took place under the banner of 'christian discipline'.


Dharma, while I fully agree with the points you are making, and I see what you're saying with this statement, I don't know if we should be comparing the idea of "choosing" to be homosexual to the idea of "choosing" to be "evil." This makes it sound too much in my mind like equating homosexuality with evil, though of course I know you don't mean that, I just don't want someone to latch onto semantics again and say, "Well, first you guys to criticise us for thinking homosexuality is wrong and then you admit that it's evil yourselves."

Some people don't seem to take the trouble to understand what is said before firing off a response.

He does not like evil and he does not like gay people.


So how does he love everyone and everything if he doesn't like gay people?

Why would God create a person that was gay if he thinks of being gay a sin?? So how on earth are they born gay? You can't be.


Why don't you consider that maybe you're just misinformed, maybe your specific sect of Christianity is a little off on God's exact position, and he doesn't think that being gay is a sin? I would find that a more compelling explanation for why he would create gay people than, "Well he just can't MAKE them that way, it doesn't make sense, he doesn't like homosexuality!"
Reply #220 from JoeUser Forums Top

The reason is because MAN chose to be this way. God hasn't created anything that is not perfect. It's all been man's doings. He didn't create people he finds offensive, it's the exact oposite. Man "created" people that God doesn't find favor in.

Nope...if that were true, then there would come a moment in each of our lives when we could say that we chose to be one or the other....I never consciously made the choice to be heterosexual, I just always WAS...and my stepson never made a conscious choice to be homosexual...he just WAS--it was something he knew from the time he was eight years old.

It is a sin, and one of the worst.

I wrote an article about this months ago...is there a scale of sin? Some kind of point system, with homicide at the top and lying at the bottom? Where can I find this written in the bible? I've looked, and I didn't see one. I've always thought that sin is sin, that there wasn't a scorecard.

Karen...my religious education has always been that a sin is a sin is a sin....except for the one unforgivable sin, which is denying the Holy Spirit.

 

Reply #221 from JoeUser Forums Top
is there a scale of sin?

a sin is a sin is a sin....


I disagree. It may not be in the Bible, but there is a clear difference between, for example, a "little white lie" and a lie that scams grandma's life savings off of her and causes her house to be foreclosed on. There's a difference between slapping someone in anger and lying in wait to shoot them 6 times in the head. It's a fairly obvious scale, though clearly it is open for interpretation.
Reply #222 from JoeUser Forums Top

Karen...my religious education has always been that a sin is a sin is a sin....except for the one unforgivable sin, which is denying the Holy Spirit.


Mine too.  That's why I was asking (rhetorically) where it said in the bible that one sin is worse than another. 


Citahellion - I knew about Catholicism having a lot of dogma that protestant churches don't....but I had forgotten about venial, cardinal etc.  Thanks!


--it was something he knew from the time he was eight years old.


That reinforces my point about people knowing their sexual orientation, even in childhood.  You know, it must be hard to live in the closet, to not be able to be open about who you are and what you're about (something the majority of the straight population takes for granted, I might add) Then, if a when a person finds the courage to 'come out', he has to deal with the stigma and the scorn poured upon him by other people.  It's not something to be taken lightly....I'm sure that people second guess themselves for many years before making the decision to 'come out'.  This isn't a game, people don't wake up one morning and think "I'm tired of being hetro, I think I'll be homo from now on' ... it doesn't work like that.  That's the impression I get when I see the people on this thread going on about it being a 'choice' - that they think it's something flippant and trivial, that it'"s something people have control over.  It's not.

Reply #223 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess I lied earlier, I can't leave you guys thinking all this stuff...

I still can't "quote" you all with the yellow rectangles so please just stick with me here...

"Cornbread, consider this: You were born straight, right? You have never had any doubts about your sexuality whatsoever?"

Actually, you've officially asumed too much. I have questioned myself. Actually I question myself constantly but I realize that I'm doing the better thing by staying the way I am. God would prefer it.

"I think that some people are inherently evil. I've seen some horrific stuff, and you know what?"

Well, that's too bad because, again, God wouldn't do that. Everyone is born "perfect" though they might be born through not so perfect fassions, they are still perfect at birth.

The thing that makes people "evil" is their enjoyment in what evil can get you. The good path isn't always the easiest and that's what makes it so hard to stick with. Is it easier to lie about something you know you shouldn't have done or fess up and get whatever punishment you may recieve (in most cases)?

"So how does he love everyone and everything if he doesn't like gay people?"

Your hurting my brain... look at what you said... like and love are totally different. I may not like someone like Hitler, but God would tell me to love him anyways, and I would/do. Do you seriously see the comments about not liking gays as meaning not loving them? To be totally honest I don't exactly LIKE a lot of you right now but I still LOVE you all.

"I would find that a more compelling explanation for why he would create gay people than, 'Well he just can't MAKE them that way, it doesn't make sense, he doesn't like homosexuality!'"

Again, are you serious!? God CAN do anything. Of course, you don't see him doing everything because not everything is "good". He doesn't "make" gays because he makes everyone PERFECT, that means no spiritual flaws. Have you never done something without knowing you were going to do it ahead of time? Like, fighting with someone, I'm sure it's happened out of nowhere for just about everyone. So why can't the choice to have the sexuality you chose be a subconteous (spelling?) one? Of course, you make the choice, but you just don't know you did in a "you didn't sit there and tell yourself you want it" kind of way.

Obviously, most of this is IMO

Capt. over and out!
Reply #224 from JoeUser Forums Top

I disagree. It may not be in the Bible, but there is a clear difference between, for example, a "little white lie" and a lie that scams grandma's life savings off of her and causes her house to be foreclosed on. There's a difference between slapping someone in anger and lying in wait to shoot them 6 times in the head. It's a fairly obvious scale, though clearly it is open for interpretation.

In the eyes of men, but not in the eyes of God. To God, ANY sin removes us from fellowship with Him.

Reply #225 from JoeUser Forums Top
Very well put Poetmom.

Capt. over and out!