Gay WHAT???

from JoeUser Forums
What is wrong with this world? Am I just stupid or was the U.S. Constituition written while under the influence of a God fearing belief?

If the constition was written under those principles than why do the people who are also God fearing, have to refrain from using his holy name in public? People honestly wanted to change our 200+ year old pledge just because it includes the word God. And what's even worse is that I have to sit back and listen to people curse while using God's name. Maybe I'm just a crazy christian that is too blind to no the difference, but I don't think that's it.

I have the strangest feeling our forefathers didn't mean that you can't practice religion in the U.S. just that you can't FORCE your religion upon someone. Saying the pledge is not forcing christian ethics upon anyone, it's just asking Americans to have some respect for their country.

Gays can get married, legally, now. All I have to say about this one is, keep them out of court rooms and churches when doing this, because the church is (or at least mine is) against homosexual marriages. Then you have the court rooms which have the american flag right in your face.

If you haven't noticed yet, I'm a christian and I can't stand the fact that we are letting people like this get away with what they are doing. You don't see me going around yelling at people for not praying, so why yell at me FOR praying? I'm not even speaking for crying out loud.

Oh, and then there's schools... This sucks big one's! You don't have to pledge anymore and the principal can't ask you to take time to pray and/or meditate. I remember, in 3rd grade, we would always do morning pledge and then the moment of silence for prayer or meditation. It was harmless. If you don't want to pray, you had time to sit and think. If you wanted to pray and not feel weird you could. Suddenly, out of nowhere we weren't aloud to do those things anymore. Now, to pray you look like a freak and everyone thinks your a loser that doesn't deserve to have friends.

So, what am I? Am I an idiot for even thinking that God is good? Maybe that's why we're having so much trouble in this world now. People won't accept that God isn't a word to bind you into one religion, but a word to symbolize the greatness of our country... if you won't accept it as a holy being. Or perhaps I'm a psychotic homophobe who can't even function in the same world as a homosexual or bisexual (no real dif.).

Capt. over and out!
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Constitution was also written while under the influence of a society where a single religious organization practically controlled the strings of the government using its power to oppress any opposing churches. Therefore it was deemed appropriate to make sure that the government could not mandate any form of religious activity.

Now I think that it has been carried much too far; having a cross in the state seal is not "mandating religious activity", nor is having a copy of the 10 commandments in the courthouse, nor is allowing persons of religious bent a moment to practice whatever religious activity they desire.

In this post, though, you say that (a) "you can't FORCE your religion on someone" and that (b) you believe that your religion's opposition to gay marriage should trump others' secular approval of it.

By the way, the pledge of allegiance is only 112 years old; it was written in 1892 by a Baptist minister. The words "Under God" were added in 1954 by a congressional act.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
The words "Under God" were added in 1954 by a congressional act.


Exactly. Not exactly 200 years old. I would be all too happy when they decide to nix that off and restore to original edition.

was the U.S. Constitution written while under the influence of a God fearing belief?


Yes, but USA changed since then. Government should be pretty much religion-free. Religion wars have killed many times more than any kind or form of governments' wars.
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm with you on this here, Capt. I think it is idiotic to try to change the constitution, which has governed the country for so many years, and try to erase the word "God".....just because people are offended by it (If they are then they have WAY too much free time on their hands to get pissed about the word "God") they don't have to believe it....Really its not even a religious argument....just some people that want to start some bullshit so they can get attention. Like you said, its not like we're forcing the belief down people's throat's...."God" can be used to describe any divine being that the person believes in...in the case of Atheists, then...well....uh, just chill out.....because if you don't believe in anything then what the hell is the problem? The Government is mostly religion free (Especially compared to the Middle Eastern countries where if you say something about religion that is negative you may not make it through the night) except for the word "God" here and there. I just want to know why the other religions get pissed off about the word "God"....Any Christians that I know don't get offended by the words: Zeus, Budda, Allah, etc., ect.....so just calm down, if a person gets ticked off by a word that has been there practically for the entire history of the country then they, have no life, no hobby, nothing to live for.....I'm sorry but it's true....What if I was angry about people using the word "the"? Saying that I had a rare affliction that makes me offended and took it to court...would everyone have to erase that word and use something else?.....If you don't believe in God, then at least respect the ideas (Not Bible stories...just general be good to people stuff) that the word stands for and let it go....just let it go....

~Zoo
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
It seems to me that just as many people are as offended at the word GOD as they are the word GAY nowadays. Just goes to show how polarized the USA is these days.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top




Actually, the forefathers were deitists. Going along with "add-ins" in American culture and mentality, the "Under G-d" saying only appeared in different facets, including on money during the government's efforts to polarize the "G-dless Russian Commies" from everyday Americans, and procaim values that were not stated in the Constitution.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry, I'm new at this...this is what I meant to quote

The words "Under God" were added in 1954 by a congressional act.


Exactly. Not exactly 200 years old. I would be all too happy when they decide to nix that off and restore to original edition.

was the U.S. Constitution written while under the influence of a God fearing belief?


Yes, but USA changed since then. Government should be pretty much religion-free. Religion wars have killed many times more than any kind or form of governments' wars.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think it is idiotic to try to change the constitution,

Hmm... I guess all those ammendments are idiotic.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Any Christians that I know don't get offended by the words: Zeus, Budda, Allah, etc., ec

Christians aren't asked to pledge allegiance to a nation "under" Zeus. Christian's money doesn't contain the phrase "In Zeus We Trust".

God" can be used to describe any divine being that the person believes in...in the case of Atheists, then...well....uh, just chill out.....because if you don't believe in anything then what the hell is the problem?

Wow, theres an inclusive statement if I ever heard one. So basically, if someone doesn't believe in a deity, then they can just shut the hell up?
"
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

because if you don't believe in anything then what the hell is the problem?


The problem is your ilk shoving your god in my face all the time.  I'm a firm believer in live and let live...until someone tries to impose their way of thinking on me, then I tend to dig my heels in.


And no, you don't get offended by the words, you just try to convert the speaker of the words instead.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hmm... I guess all those ammendments are idiotic.


Not, the Amendments....sorry, I guess I should have been specific....I meant changing the wording in the actual document.... The Bill of Rights is fine....it's actually a different document than the constitution anyway.

Christians aren't asked to pledge allegiance to a nation "under" Zeus. Christian's money doesn't contain the phrase "In Zeus We Trust".


Yes, but.....you can look at the word "God" as a more universal term.....it can be nondescript.....at least its not specific like "In Zeus We Trust".

So basically, if someone doesn't believe in a deity, then they can just shut the hell up?


Yes and no.... If they don't like the word and don't want to put up with it then I guess they can go ahead and raise some hell, if it makes them feel better.....just don't nag our asses off all day....complaining....

The problem is your ilk shoving your god in my face all the time.


Ok, I see your point, but the only Christians that I see imposing their way of thinking on people are Jehovah's Witnesses..... But seriously, money and documents have contained the word "God" for a very long time during America's history.....and I'm not sure what's with the sudden boner everyone has to try and change everything that has stood for so long.....and served us well enough to survive as a nation.

BTW, do they still make people swear on the Bible in court?......all this talk has got me wondering....Do they have copies of the other holy documents to swear on?....anyone know?

~Zoo
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

BTW, do they still make people swear on the Bible in court?......all this talk has got me wondering....Do they have copies of the other holy documents to swear on?....anyone know?


You can swear on the bible, or you can make an affirmation.  It's not compulsory to swear an oath on the book of faith.


As for Jehova's Witnesses being the ony people who shove their religion in my face..you're wrong.  You ALL do it, whether you realize it or not.  Everytime you complain like you just did about people having issues with the pledge of alleigance, you're doing it.  Everytime you make comments like "having god on our currency has served us well as a nation so I don't see what the problem is' you're doing it.  It's more insidious than Jehova's Witnesses, but it's there nonetheless.  That's what makes me want to dig my heels in and protest.  I could care less what faith you are, really...but when you insist that everyone else, regardless of their own beliefs, adhere to the principles of your faith...then I become vocally anti christianity.


Just to clarify:  I don't care that the pledge has the words 'under god' in it.  I choose not to say those words, and that's my business.  I'm not about to start protesting and lobbying to have those words removed.  But, should there be a decision made that forces people to say those words...than you can bet your ass I'll be protesting to have them removed.  "

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
If they don't like the word and don't want to put up with it then I guess they can go ahead and raise some hell, if it makes them feel better.....just don't nag our asses off all day....complaining....

So they can "raise some hell" just as long as they don't complain. I really don't think you know what you are trying to say.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, you make a good argument Dharma....and I'm glad you're not one of the crazy people out there trying to change it....that's my problem....do you know how much time and money that would take to reorganize everything as to not to offend anyone?.....I, myself don't wish to make people believe a damn thing about my religion if they don't want to....I'm not supporting others to try and convert people either and I'm not up for forcing people to pray to "MY" God or anything like that.....People don't have to say that word or believe anything it stands for....I don't see what the fuss is......If I was offended by the president's faces on the currency would they have to change it?....isn't that essentially the same? I don't like to look at them...perhaps I don't agree with their policies or what they did?.....(Note: I don't have a problem with that....just an example)....

(Also this wasn't directed toward Dharma....she appears to be the kind of person that I have no beef with and I understand and respect her views....other people though have to try and change everything and piss off everyone...not to mention waste time)

I'm liking this debate by the way....we're always learning something aren't we?,
~Zoo
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
So they can "raise some hell" just as long as they don't complain. I really don't think you know what you are trying to say.


Ugh, I'm getting to the point which I'm not too sure what the hell I'm saying.......that was an awfully contradictary statement....I apologize, I shouldn't have been so hasty in my assessment of atheists.....(Although I believe one of them started this entire argument a few years back)....I guess they have a right to say something as much as anyone else....I guess I screwed up on that little bit.....

~Zoo
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

do you know how much time and money that would take to reorganize everything as to not to offend anyone?


It's impossible.  Did you ever see the South Park episode where Kyles mom complains about his participating in the Nativity because he's Jewish?  So they have to remove everything from the naitivity that offends anyone..they end up not having a play at all, and some people are even offended by that.  You can't please all the people all the time. 


I'm not rabidly anti-anything.  I believe that everyone has a choice when it comes to faith and religion.  You can practice whatever the heck you like; I don't care...until you start trying to force your belief system on me. 

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's impossible. Did you ever see the South Park episode where Kyles mom complains about his participating in the Nativity because he's Jewish? So they have to remove everything from the naitivity that offends anyone..they end up not having a play at all, and some people are even offended by that. You can't please all the people all the time.


Marevelous reference!...In fact I watch South Park "religiously"(heh) That is the situation which we don't need.....at least animated characters can show us the results of what can happen if we screw with something....

~Zoo
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, you've all said stuff about how God is forcing Greeks to believe in one god, but isn't it also true that "God" is also what you could call Zeus or Apollo? God CAN be exclusive but it's not. Saying "In God We Trust" pretty much says, for the majority, we believe in a superior being who will aid us in our troubles. Maybe you don't believe in a god but you should at least allow those of us who do, to be proud of it.

Why should it matter what the money says or anything like that? The money is still worth 20 dollars if it says it costs 20 dollars and if someone writes on said money, do they get arrested for it? I've never heard of the case. Just think of it as someone writing "in god we trust" on every dollar he/she gets ahold of. And then if you want to you can write on it too, right? You're defacing it, but who's gonna know?

I haven't forced my religion on a single person here by what I've said, the only way I could have done that is to make you read this article. All I've done is written it in hopes that you would, not in order to make everyone read it, even if they don't want to themselves. You can't honestly say that I've forced anything on anyone. There's been plenty of gay articles on here and I've simply just not read them. I don't have to so I choose not to.

Capt. over and out!
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

Maybe you don't believe in a god but you should at least allow those of us who do, to be proud of it


May be YOU should allow for US who don't believe in a deity to do so and not shove your belief system on us all the time.  How about that?  How would YOU like it if I demanded that all students in public schools contemplate a zen reading every day and that they bowed to statues of the Buddha whenever the passed by?  Would you consider that to be my shoving my belief system on you?  I would. 


It's attitudes like yours, Cornbread, that make me dig my heels in.  The 'we're the majority to you all can kiss our asses' mindset really pisses me off.

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, you've even said that you can't please everybody, but if you can please the majority than you're doing good. I honestly don't see my asking for moments of silence and pledge to the american flag as asking for too much.

Capt. over and out!
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, I need a point of clarfication cause this thread lost me...who's trying to take the word "God" out of the constitution? I've hear about altering the Pledge, but haven't heard anything about the constitution...so if someone could fill me in on that, I'd be most obliged.

But now for my 2 cents...

1. I don't have any problem with the "God" being in the Pledge, but by the same token, I don't think anyone should be forced to say it. The big hoopla over the Congressman who didn't say it on the floor of the House was ridiculous--give the man a break, if he doesn't believe, he doesn't believe.

2. I think having the commandments in a classroom or court is entirely different. This is a separation of church and state. The only way that the 10 commandments should show up in a court room is as part of codied US law--we've got laws against stealing and murdering, but not against adultry, having no other God before God, honoring your mother and your father, keeping the Sabbath--until we do, keep it out of the courts. If you want the commandments in the court, work to pass each and every one into law.

3. Yes, Capt. Cornbread, Zeus is a god, but not God. (I'm actually a little weary about bringing in the capitalization debate, but it's slightly relevant, so I'll throw it out there and run for cover!).
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Shades, I think that it would be awesome to include most of the comandments, just not the first few because then we'd have a constitutional conflict.

Capt. over and out!
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

I honestly don't see my asking for moments of silence and pledge to the american flag as asking for too much.


Well, you wouldn't, would you?  Because you're a member of the majority, who think that everyone else can bend to your will, or we can..get lost, for want of a better word.  I'd still like to know your thoughts on my shoving my belief system on you.


Shades is right.  No-ones talking about the Constitution, we're talking about the use of the phrase 'under god' (please not the lower case letters) in the Pledge of Alleigance.  I don't think that my child should have to say 'under god' if she doesn't believe in god.  Believe it or not, not believeing in the monotheistic version of god doesn't make you a lesser, or a bad person.


I alos agree with Shades in thinking that we have enough biblical values instilled in our legal system, we don't need them entering the classroom as well.


I so didn't get the comment about 'constitutional conflict'...care to explain?


 

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just raising a small question if I could....

Are the biblical values in the commandments bad?


I alos agree with Shades in thinking that we have enough biblical values instilled in our legal system, we don't need them entering the classroom as well.


?

Peace,

Beebes
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

No, they're not 'bad' per se.....they make up the basis of the judicial system in this country - but the US has resolved to keep church and state separate, and bringing them into the classroom violates that resolution.

 

 

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wow, I totally agree with you Capt. I think that there should still be time to pray in classrooms at schools. I think that the last time I remember praying in a classroom was in the 5th grade. You didn't have to pray if you didn't want to. I always enjoyed that part of the morning, but now because of a stupid law i'm not able to do that in school anymore. It's not like they were forcing you to pray or something. You can't even realate God into a school subject anymore. Well at least in most classrooms. I mean sure some of the people might not believe in the same God, but still. "In God We Trust" well my opinion on that one is, if you don't trust in him then why don't you just ignor the statement, it's not like anyone is forcing you to trust in God. As for the gay and lesbian marriges......it's just totally wrong. That's how I was raised and my church also forbids anything to do with homosexual relationships. If you want a kind of relationship such as that then do it somewhere as long as it is not in a church. And you should absoulutly not ever use God's name in vain.(sp?) Even if you don't believe in him. It's wrong and the people that do believe in him would rather not hear you use it in such a way.

~carebear~