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Gay WHAT???

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Gay WHAT???

from JoeUser Forums
What is wrong with this world? Am I just stupid or was the U.S. Constituition written while under the influence of a God fearing belief?

If the constition was written under those principles than why do the people who are also God fearing, have to refrain from using his holy name in public? People honestly wanted to change our 200+ year old pledge just because it includes the word God. And what's even worse is that I have to sit back and listen to people curse while using God's name. Maybe I'm just a crazy christian that is too blind to no the difference, but I don't think that's it.

I have the strangest feeling our forefathers didn't mean that you can't practice religion in the U.S. just that you can't FORCE your religion upon someone. Saying the pledge is not forcing christian ethics upon anyone, it's just asking Americans to have some respect for their country.

Gays can get married, legally, now. All I have to say about this one is, keep them out of court rooms and churches when doing this, because the church is (or at least mine is) against homosexual marriages. Then you have the court rooms which have the american flag right in your face.

If you haven't noticed yet, I'm a christian and I can't stand the fact that we are letting people like this get away with what they are doing. You don't see me going around yelling at people for not praying, so why yell at me FOR praying? I'm not even speaking for crying out loud.

Oh, and then there's schools... This sucks big one's! You don't have to pledge anymore and the principal can't ask you to take time to pray and/or meditate. I remember, in 3rd grade, we would always do morning pledge and then the moment of silence for prayer or meditation. It was harmless. If you don't want to pray, you had time to sit and think. If you wanted to pray and not feel weird you could. Suddenly, out of nowhere we weren't aloud to do those things anymore. Now, to pray you look like a freak and everyone thinks your a loser that doesn't deserve to have friends.

So, what am I? Am I an idiot for even thinking that God is good? Maybe that's why we're having so much trouble in this world now. People won't accept that God isn't a word to bind you into one religion, but a word to symbolize the greatness of our country... if you won't accept it as a holy being. Or perhaps I'm a psychotic homophobe who can't even function in the same world as a homosexual or bisexual (no real dif.).

Capt. over and out!
27,964 views 284 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
What's the point of a church or chapel if eveyone goes around chanting verse in the public square? You want to pray?-- do it at your bedside or in church. When the helll are people going to realize politics and religion don't mix.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
What's the point of a church or chapel if eveyone goes around chanting verse in the public square? You want to pray?-- do it at your bedside or in church. When the helll are people going to realize politics and religion don't mix.


Yes, but you should be able to pray when ever you feel like it. What if you wanted to pray for something bad that has happened and it just so happened to be a tuesday at school? So are you going to just wait to pray untill you go to bed or untill you go to church on Sunday? It might be too late.

~carebear~
Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
Carebear, there are currently no provisions for students to launch into spontaneous prayer whenever theyre scared that the principal is going to kill them for not doing their homework. Thank God because otherwise kids would just pray as an excuse to avoid getting an earfull from the teacher. "Simpkins!!! What is the..." "Hang on Mr Blow, I have to pray before you scold me". If you wanna pray, do it on your own time.
Ive just read this whole discussion so I cant remember who said what, but by having prayer in schools you are indeed causing problems for those who dont believe or participate. A Moslem parent recently told me how her child had recently come home from her day in a Catholic school to tell her mum she didn't want to be a Muslim anymore. Upon furthering question, and knowledge of the child, the parent discovered this was not because of any shift in faith. In fact, the child was too young to know much about either faith. It was because she couldn't make any friends. The reason she made no friends was that she did not go along to the Religious Ed classes and the other kids mocked her for this. She was made to look like a freak because she didnt participate in prayer. If you want to indoctrinate your kids, do it on Sundays. I pray but Im not about to make everyone else take time out of their education to pray along with me.
As for gay marriages, sure, keep it out of the churches that dont want it. But theres no reason to keep it out of the courtrooms. They are US citizens engaging in legal activity. As for religion, keep it out of the classroom.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hmm.. id like to ask a question.

What if the muslims of your country wanted to include their form of prayer in your schools, or the buddhists wanting to chant verses of the Dharmapada, how about the Hari Krishnas wanting to chant their mantras before the start of school.. Cornbread..what would you think then?

As for gays getting married, well maybe the straight community needs to concentrate more on their own marrages not ending up in divorce than freaking out because two people whether man and woman man and man or woman and woman who love each other want to declare their love before their God (whoever that may be for them) and their families. The issue that needs to be addressed is the issue of love and people who love each other, which is a beautiful thing and needs to be promoted. What is sad about our community is that most people think the lives of gay people are what they are shown to be in the media for example, Queer eye, Queer as folk or even movies such as Pricilla. Its not all about sex or promiscuity, alot of it is about love and acceptance. The debate about gay marrages is more about equality. We need to see all humans as equals who deserve equal rights. Without this then there is a hierachical society of people thinking always that they are better than anyone else. This is what causes wars and injustices in society.


Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top

What if the muslims of your country wanted to include their form of prayer in your schools, or the buddhists wanting to chant verses of the Dharmapada, how about the Hari Krishnas wanting to chant their mantras before the start of school.. Cornbread..what would you think then?

I asked a similar thing, and i have yet to recieve a response.

Carebear - why are homosexual marriages wrong?  Did you make the decison to label them thus on your ownm or are you doing it becuase that's what you pastor and the bible and everyone in your church says?  If you did it for the latter...well, then jesus was right when he called his followers 'sheep'.

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
Are the biblical values in the commandments bad?


I think that's directed towards me, but I'm not really sure, so I will answer it anyway.

No, the commandments are not bad at all if you are a Christian (which I am, of the widely unpopular Catholic demoniation ). That said, I don't believe that anything that is funded with public money (schools, courts...) should contain the doctrines of any religion.

As for the praying in school. Since when did you need a specific time as dictated by the principal to allow you to pray? Praying is something between you and God and only needs the solitude within your head for it to occur. I've said many a prayer on the metro, riding on the bus, in airplanes, in a crowded mall, in the cafeteria when I was in school, you name it. You don't need everyone around you to stop and notice you are praying for your prayer to be effective. The law doesn't prohibit you from praying--should, as Carebear suggested, you feel the need to offer up prayer at 1:33 on a given Tuesday afternoon--do it. The argument that you need a moment of silence in order to pray is akin to the argument that you need a church to be religious--Jesus made do without either.

Now, having said all that, I am curious as to when the moment of silence was outlawed? Honestly, I don't really have a huge problem with a moment of silence because, no matter what your beliefs are regarding a deity, it's a moment to reflect on the day a head--a chance to get centered and mentally prepare for the challenges awaiting you. If however, you are spiritual/religious, you can use the moment to pray to the god/gods of your choosing.

As for gay marriages, let me remind you of the Sermon on the Mount: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1). Marriages are afforded extra rights by state and federal governments (again an issue of church and state). Until they are completely separate, not allowing gays to marry is a form of discrimination. You may not agree with their lifestyle, but it is not for us to judge them or to cause them any undue hardship. That said, no church should be forced to marry them, either (though to be fair, I don't really see gays wanting to get married in a church that is hostile to them). Unlike we here on earth, Jesus had no heirarchy of sins. Sexual sinners are no worse than any other sinners. Remember Matthew 21:28-31? The prostitutes enter the kingdom of God ahead of the religious Pharisees. Being a sinner does not eliminate your chances for a glorious hereafter with God--if it did, we'd all be in some serious trouble. Live and let live.

Sorry, that got a little long.
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, you've even said that you can't please everybody, but if you can please the majority than you're doing good. I honestly don't see my asking for moments of silence and pledge to the american flag as asking for too much.

the problem is that having "under God" in the pledge is a divisive condition, while not having it is inclusive. Having that statement in presupposes some divine being, which means that anyone who does not believe that suddenly has a choice... do I support my country's official pledge, betraying my beliefs, or do I personally edit the official pledge. Without the statement "under God" there is no assumption about a person's religious beliefs. The official pledge becomes an adoration of the country, and not an invisible spirit.
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
CS Guy made a very eloquent point......
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
Carebear - why are homosexual marriages wrong? Did you make the decison to label them thus on your ownm or are you doing it becuase that's what you pastor and the bible and everyone in your church says? If you did it for the latter...well, then jesus was right when he called his followers 'sheep'.


It's not that I have a major problem with homosexuals or anything, it's just the way my church believes. I'm not going to turn against what my church is teaching. I just think that they need to keep their marriages out of the churches. I'm just following the belief of my church. So nothing against the homosexuals. If they want a relationship like that, that's their choice, but I'd rather them keep it away from me.

~carebear~
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm not going to turn against what my church is teaching


I'm just following the belief of my church.


That's what I thought.


That kind of mentality is what turned me away from Christianity in the first place.


 


Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
That kind of mentality is what turned me away from Christianity in the first place.


Christianity hardly has exclusive rights to that brand of indoctrination....
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Carebear: I encourage you (and everyone else) to question the teachings of your church--not necessarily to abandon them, but to fully understand where they come from, and if you truly believe in them. You may find out that you agree 100% with everything, but you might find sticky spots where you have trouble with some doctrines. A deeper understanding can be the foundation to an un-rockable faith. Blind faith should be reserved for Jesus alone (assuming you are Christian) not for the people "doing God's work." Read the Bible, interpret on your own, think about what is says and how it squares with your beliefs. The Protestant Reformation was a fight to free Christians from having their religion dictated to them...but, alas, for all intensive purposes, we are in the same place we started.

I am a firm believe that I can disagree with aspects of my church and still be a committed member. Sometimes personal morality must prevail. (How many churches supported slavery? How many people quoted the Bible in defense of keeping slaves?) Just some food for thought.

PS. Citahellion--you could not be more correct!
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top

Christianity hardly has exclusive rights to that brand of indoctrination....


You're absolutely correct, they don't.  That was just the form of organized religion I turned away from.

Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
If they want a relationship like that, that's their choice, but I'd rather them keep it away from me.


Hmm maybe you might get leprosy or something??? Carebear... is your church preaching tolerance, love, compassion or is it that you think when you die you go to heaven and you will be in a room with only people who went to your church or believed what you believed in?

Honestly, its like people really arent listening to what Jesus had to say. Love one another (yes that means everyone) as I loved you.
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hmm maybe you might get leprosy or something??? Carebear... is your church preaching tolerance, love, compassion or is it that you think when you die you go to heaven and you will be in a room with only people who went to your church or believed what you believed in?


Like I said, I don't hate homosexuals. I even have friends that are homosexuals. And I do respect that they choose to be that way, but I still see that it's wrong. And no, when i go to heaven I don't believe that I'm only going to go to a room with people that went to my church or believed what I did. People have their different opinions and I respect that. I've said in the past, I don't like to see homosexuals display their public affection for each other, and I also don't enjoy straigh people doing right out in the open either. I really didn't want this to turn into an argument, and I'm sure Capt. didn't either. And I'm trying to keep the peace the best I can, so if I sound offensive in this it wasn't meant to be that way.

~carebear~
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top

And I do respect that they choose to be that way, but I still see that it's wrong.

But it's not a choice to be that way, Carebear.

I'm not trying (despite what you may think) to turn this into an argument either, and you're doing a great job at keeping the peace, by the way.....but I want you to think outside of the box that you've created.  Think about how it would feel to be the minority, to have people look down on you and act like what you want doesn't count. 

Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
And I do respect that they choose to be that way


If it were a choice do you think it would be easier for people to be "straight" and not cop the flack that is coped being gay? Im glad your trying to understand Carebear.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think any love between any people deserves to be respected and celebrated before God.

'love is natural and real', Morrisey.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top

they (the 10 commandments) make up the basis of the judicial system in this country


the 2nd most amusing thing (in a very ironic sense) about former alabama supreme court justice roy moore's failed attempt to impose a graven image (the most amusing aspect being the fact his monument is exactly that) on the citizens of his state was his assertion the decalogue is the foundation of our (american/english) contemporary  judicial system or the laws thereof. despite not having the actual tablets available for carbon dating, there is significant and abundant evidence the hebrew commandments were predated by the codes of hammurabi--which, in turn, were very likely derived from an even more ancient source.  in any event, our current legal systems and procedures are clearly founded upon the works of those romans who authored the 12 tables in 400 bce--drawing upon hammurabi and greek codes--as enhanced by justinian's 'corpus jurus civilis'. 

Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, so, now it's all about how belief in God is wrong, or believing in the teaching of you church is wrong? I don't like what I'm reading because to be honest I didn't get my opinion strictly from what some 60 year old man told me. My beliefs come from my interpretation of the bible.

In the bible you CAN find an answer to nearly any political issue and most situations with relationships. I'm not saying that the bible is the only thing making up my mind either. I believe God puts verses in front of you for a reason. I haven't read the whole bible yet but I constantly get verses thrown at me to read that help in an unbelievable way.

I don't really even thing I belong to any church and I also don't think that I need to. I just grew up with teaching being pushed into my head and honestly, I have found many of them to be misleading.

I don't remember who said it, but someone actually agreed with me about moments of silence. I never, once, said that the moment of silence must contain prayer, and that's exactly what a lot of you are making it seem like. The moment of silence was always the calming part of the day to help you prepare for the day. I am just one of those students that took the time to pray. Some of my friends took it as time to catch up on their sleeping or their homework, but whatever it was, it calmed me down and I always looked forward to it. It wasn't because everyone had to pray, but because it gave us a chance to if we wanted to and it also gave people time to think about what they are going to do.

Gay marriage is wrong because God didn't establish it as being a holy unity. When gays get married there is no husband and wife... that's what you need for a holy unity such as marriage. You're probably going to tell me it's alright for a 12 year old and a 40 year old to get married next, and I'm not going to tolerate this stupid thinking of people anymore. It's not my fault you think people are born gay, it's just your way of saying it's ok. I'm sorry but it's not. I may have friends who are like that and they will tell you, it's a choice, not a birth defect. I'm not saying that gays are bad but I am saying that it's not favorable in my God's eyes. Have you ever seen a homosexual become a born again christian? They aren't gay or lesbian any more after that because they chose not to be.

I hate to tell you this but christianity isn't some half baked idea to get people to think they are all evil and unworthy. As a member of the Baptist church I can honestly say my church has got to be the worst church if you are gay, but that's just because half of them don't want to accept change.

The church is basically a gosip house anymore, I don't like it and I prefer just going to sunday school and going home. Stay any longer and you might get too much negative feedback from the old ladies. I am with whoever says that the church isn't just a building, but a spiritual body created by the people who love and are loved by Jesus christ.

Alright, I'll "argue" some more later, but right now, I'm gonna go so no one dies from boredom.

Capt. over and out!
Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gay marriage is wrong because God didn't establish it as being a holy unity. When gays get married there is no husband and wife... that's what you need for a holy unity such as marriage. You're probably going to tell me it's alright for a 12 year old and a 40 year old to get married next, and I'm not going to tolerate this stupid thinking of people anymore. It's not my fault you think people are born gay, it's just your way of saying it's ok. I'm sorry but it's not. I may have friends who are like that and they will tell you, it's a choice, not a birth defect. I'm not saying that gays are bad but I am saying that it's not favorable in my God's eyes. Have you ever seen a homosexual become a born again christian? They aren't gay or lesbian any more after that because they chose not to be.


I think that you're the only one in here that sees this whole thing the same way I do Capt. You're not born to be gay or lesbian, i think it is by choice.


hate to tell you this but christianity isn't some half baked idea to get people to think they are all evil and unworthy. As a member of the Baptist church I can honestly say my church has got to be the worst church if you are gay, but that's just because half of them don't want to accept change


I don't know Capt. My church is pretty bad when it comes to someone being gay.

~carebear~
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
Carebear07 said:
Yes, but you should be able to pray when ever you feel like it. What if you wanted to pray for something bad that has happened and it just so happened to be a tuesday at school? So are you going to just wait to pray untill you go to bed or until you go to church on Sunday? It might be too late.


Now come on. Do you honestly believe that you HAVE to express yourself verbally in a prayer, and if you don't get a chance to do so right away, God might ignore the bad things that are going on? If you're THAT concerned about something you can always do a quick, internal "hey God please take care of that" at the time and then yes, you can wait until you go to bed to express yourself more formally. Has your church actually taught you that God will ignore you unless you're on your knees with your hands clasped, intoning in Latin? I'm no priest or pastor but I'm familiar enough with the church and the Bible to know that's not how it works (unless possibly you're Catholic). God is supposed to be omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, after all.

Cpt Cornbread said:
Have you ever seen a homosexual become a born again christian? They aren't gay or lesbian any more after that because they chose not to be.


No, they are still gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or whatever. They are just no longer practicing it.
You were a sinner before you joined the church, right? And now that you're a born-again christian, you have not suddenly become an angel. You're still a sinner. You just try your best (hopefully) to sin as little as possible. Your desires and tendencies are still there, but you suppress them. Of course, in the eyes of the church, even thinking about certain things is a sin, so you cannot possibly avoid still being a sinner.

In the bible you CAN find an answer to nearly any political issue and most situations with relationships.


I'd go so far as to say that in the Bible you can find ANY answer to nearly any political issue or relationship problem. By this I mean, that if you're looking to condemn homosexuality, it's all there in the Old Testament. If you're looking to let it slide, check out the New Testament. If you want to justify slavery, Old Testament. Pacifism, New Testament. Retribution, Old Testament. Et cetera. It's all in there, or something vague or general enough to apply metaphorically.

believing in the teaching of your church is wrong?


Blindly believing in the teachings of ANYONE is wrong. (Emphasis on "blindly".) Studying, learning, and finding a blend of beliefs that you feel will make you a better person and the world a better place is what you should be doing. "I'm against it because my pastor said it's wrong" means that you don't even understand the deeper reasons WHY you believe something.
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top

My beliefs come from my interpretation of the bible.

The operative word in that sentence being MY.

Homosexuality isn't a matter of choice, just as having blue eyes or epilepsy isn't a matter of choice.  You can wear contacts to change the color of your eyes or take medication to control your seizures, but underneath it you still have the blue eyes and the epilepsy. 

Perhaps you would benefit from spending quality time with a gay person.  Perhaps you should ask them if it's a choice or not, instead of listening to your straight pastor who has no experience being gay whatsoever.

You can find the answer to just about anything in the bible, and it's actually very self-contradictory.  It condems some things in the old testament that are 'forgiven' in the new.  Basically, you can interpret the bible to mean almost anything you want.  That's why I don't put too much stock in a book full of stories that were written thousands of years ago and have been manipulated and translated so many times that there's probably only a smidgen of the original left in them.  'But the bible is the divine word of god, infallible and unchanged" I hear you say?   But where are you getting that information from?  Your pastor?  Where is HE getting it from?  The bible.  The bible's hardly going to say 'hey, i contain fictional information and you should take everything you read in me with a grain of salt', now is it?

Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
As to the prayer in school argument, I like the old saying "as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools."

Interestingly enough, there's not one documented case affirmed to the Supreme Court level of a child being punished for individual prayer in school. The "movement" is another of the political right's attempt to cast all people left of center as Christian hating antitheists, when that is simply not the case with MOST liberals in America (although it could certainly be said of some).