Frogboy Frogboy

Is skinning a community or a market?

Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008

https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=19&aid=176998
frogboy-iconWhen skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups.  The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general.  In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".

Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less.  In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.

As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved.  Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations.  The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things).  Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs.  Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems.  It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it. 

The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works.  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20.  Those products are $50 to $70.   The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).

Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market.  Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products. 

I've written an article that goes into more detail.  Click the link below to check it out. 

78,901 views 249 replies
Reply #101 Top
WB does cute things if you have a good skin for it (which more than likely these days will cost you) but it certainly does not make my PC more user friendly...
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Who ever claimed that WB makes your computer more user friendly?!! WindowBlinds are like painting your living room a pleasing color to enhance the experience of sitting there!
Reply #102 Top
Unfortunately that is your problem and not the consumers. See you guys havea ctach 22 that is put you between a rock and a hard place namely: you have SW that is useless w/o content and content that is useless w/o software. When aconsumer buys your program it is useless to him unless there is content to go with it. If there is no content, or it costs money (no matter what the cost to you to produce the content) the consumer will feel robbed..
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I agree with this comment.
This is why I feel they need to do something different, like including content with the product and changing the way they market it.
A common comeback to the no content part would be that there are thousands of skins. The reply to that is I may have tons of shirts in my wardrobe, that doesn't mean I want to wear the same clothes I wore last year. Fads/styles change, content is only useful if it is current. I for one rarely change my skin these days. They could try and revitalize the skinning community, and hope that free community skins are just gonna come flying out of the woodwork, but honestly I wouldn't place any bets on that coming to fruition.






Reply #103 Top
Shadow Lord, what right does anyone have to complain about SD and the way it is run? Where do you folks get off expecting nothing but freebies?

SD makes software, skinners make skins. There are thousands of free skins on WC, many of which I would be more than happy to pay for. Fortunately I don't have to, thanks to the efforts of many MANY skinners. People keep saying, "All the good skins cost money" or, "You expect people to pay for services". That's insulting to the skinners who GIVE away their time so we can have skins.

And where do you see the devs giving "less and less to the people"? I see great new programs (like CursorFX) and impressive support. I've told this story before, but we'll go through it one more time for your sake....

Thanksgiving: I purchase ODNT, OD+, and CXP+. WB6 is having all sorts of issues with my PC. I can't get it to install. Within about 3 hours, I've uninstalled/reinstalled so many times my Max Activations Limit is reached. This is a 5-day holiday (I think) for SD. I didn't expect to get any help until the following Monday, yet one of SD support checks the email and resets my activation count...over the holiday. That next Monday, Mike (milksama) spent about 2 hours with me on the SD IRC getting WB6 to work.

Do you think a "faceless corporation" would do that? And for free?
Reply #104 Top
The entitlement crowd seems to think these artists who can work for months on end building one theme, while spending money out of their own pockets for the programs to build it,owe them all skins for free. They should be thanking the masters/and skinners in general for not closing up shop and going pro leaving them with nothing at all to DL.
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I completly disagree... I absolutely believe the master skinners should get paid... just not by the consumers but by STARDOCK.... Afte rall it their program, product, profit, and bottom line who is being supported by these skinners and they spend their own money, time, etc to build skins... If stardock thinks it should has a master skinners program then more power to them, but they should be the one's paying the skinners because without the skinners no one is willing to buy any of their programs...
Reply #105 Top
If stardock thinks it should has a master skinners program then more power to them, but they should be the one's paying the skinners because without the skinners no one is willing to buy any of their programs...
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So, what then? SD pays the master skinner...who pays SD? What is the difference between paying SD directly for a master skin, or paying here at WC? You surely can't expect SD to pay someone to make a skin, and then you get it for free. Oh, wait. I think they've done that this year already! With 3 skins: Aero Executive, Aura, and Elegance.....
Reply #106 Top
The feature set has grown, the customer base has grown, and the overhead has grown.
Now granted I don't know what kind of margin they are pulling,and I am a firm believer in maximizing both sides of the customer benefit/business benefit equation, but they gotta do what they gotta do to stay in business. Now the decisions they have made along the line I may not agree with, but I do support the product and would hate to see it gone. If raising prices or changing the product line up is what it takes, that is fine with me as long as I feel it is still good value for my money. At the end of the day whatever their expenses are, it has to be good value to us the customers, and finding that line between reasonable price and profitablity ain't easy especially with a niche product.
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Agreed, Agreed, and Agreed!!!! I have always said SD was free to do whatever they wanted to make money, it is their product, their company... In fact my biggest gripe w/ SD has never been that they want to make money but their attitude as if they are doing a favor to the customers (the phrease "the costumer is always right" has no meaning to them... In fact brad himself has said it many times... It is the same now, if they feel they need to raise prices then just be a grown up company and do it... Stop whining about it and try to blame it on users not bet testing your SW or not making content for it... Its your product: you decide the price hence you make the content for it and beta test it and market it.... Charge whatever you like for it... If it is too much people won't pay an the company will go bankrupt simple as that...
Reply #107 Top
Who ever claimed that WB makes your computer more user friendly?!! WindowBlinds are like painting your living room a pleasing color to enhance the experience of sitting there!
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AND???? I fail to see the point you are trying to make unless of course it is to re-inforce the point I made which is WB is just that: window dressing. I will pay for windows in my house and I may pay for fancy drapes, if they are not too expensive. Same goes for WB I may pay $300 for Vista Ultimate but if SD thinks thye have a potential for a sizeable price increase on WB they are sadly mistaken...
Reply #108 Top
Shadow Lord, there will always be people willing to spend money to make their lives a little prettier. Trust me on this. Especially people who spens a lot of time in front of their PC....
Reply #109 Top
So, what then? SD pays the master skinner...who pays SD? What is the difference between paying SD directly for a master skin, or paying here at WC? You surely can't expect SD to pay someone to make a skin, and then you get it for free. Oh, wait. I think they've done that this year already! With 3 skins: Aero Executive, Aura, and Elegance.....
End of quote


Are you really that naive? You got nothing for free. Brad and co have realized that the ship has sprung many leaks (i.e lack of excellent free content) and are trying to patch things by putting out these "free" skins. Trust me if people were not complaining about lack of good skins (and my guess is there is either a slowing of sales or smaller then expected growth in sales) then there would be no free skins from SD... They are a business and are in it for profit not to do you a favor... SD fan boys are almost as bad as apple fan boys...

As for who pays SD - here is a crazy idea: the costumer... You know the guy who plopped down the cash for WB! If SD feels they need to increase the price then by all means increase the price on the product. Of course then they may find out they don't have such a hot product as sales MAY plummet with the increase in price...

Brad and co are playign people like you like a mater violist... They are about to jack up prices after a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time: if they just did that there woul be outrage and mutiny in the community but by posting this news item they are justifying their price increase by blaming the costumers for not "doing their part". Basically they are trying to have their cake and eat it too and people like you are going along for the ride completly oblivious to it all...
Reply #110 Top
Shadow Lord, there will always be people willing to spend money to make their lives a little prettier. Trust me on this. Especially people who spens a lot of time in front of their PC....
End of quote


of course they are... Last I checked apple was still in business wasn't it? ;)

But as the price of making things prettier go up and up there are less and less people willing to pay it... I spend 4-6 hours a day infront of my PC... Am I willing to pay $20 for WB and all free content (good, bad, excellent)? Hell yeah, am I willing to pay $25-30 w/ some mediocre to good free content and some SUPER EXCELLENT content maybe (dpends on how much free SUPER EXCELLENT content there is), am I willing to pay $40 or more for window dressing no siry bob... YMMV of course as you may be willing to pay upwards of a few hundred dollars for WB so that then you can have the priveledge of buying the content you want.. T oeach his own I always say...
Reply #111 Top
Shadow Lord, it seems that you may be the one who is oblivious. A company can't keep their prices the same year after year and expect to stay in buisness.

Looks to me like you're the one who wants to eat that proverbial cake. You purchase the software, and then expect nothing but freebies afterwords. Well, there's plenty of freebies to go around. The galleries are full of free stuff. If that's not good enough for you, that's not Stardock's problem...it's yours.

There will always be skinners. Why? Because people like options, and that's what this software gives you. The option not to have your PC look like every other one on the block.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. If the thought of SD making a buck upsets you so much, don't support them. And don't berate the company when you haven't even bought the software lately. Not even a current customer, bro? What are you worried about?
Reply #112 Top
I for one can't wait for Jesh to whip out his half-baked SuperDesk program or whatever it's called


Half-baked? Interesting....
End of quote


+1........Very interesting indeed  ;) 
Reply #113 Top
IR I was going to commend you as one of the old timers for standing up and not toting the party line (brad and company are god, WB is my master) but I unfortunately see one post later and you are there praising how vlaid their points are and telling them to jack up prices... So does this mean you will now buy a JACKED UP IN PRICE OD2K8 or are you still going to let your subscription run out?
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Brad's points were valid...I just thought he was leaving out a few things.If getting a better product means some drastic changes,DO IT.

Yes,I would be willing to spend more on OD...just not going to at this time.I'll limp along on what I have til things shake out.

I am encouraged that it looks like change is coming.I dont think Brad wouldnt have bothered posting unless he already had a bunch in mind(however vague or already decided).Consider this discussion a softener to what is most likely inevitable. ;) 
Reply #114 Top
I am encouraged that it looks like change is coming.I dont think Brad wouldnt have bothered posting unless he already had a bunch in mind(however vague or already decided).Consider this discussion a softener to what is most likely inevitable.
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I already have... See the last paragraph of post 109.... :D
Reply #115 Top
I'm not totally clear on the object of this and it's related thread...

There are aspects of marketing such as 'My Colors', that I hope succeeds for Stardock, regardless of what it may do for skinners and the customisation community. I'm not sure how we support that directly, or even if we are being asked to. Stardock seems to have bought in many if not all of the resources it needs to develop along this route. I don't feel it's necessarily the place, or even as I stated elsewhere, within the means of this readership to follow and second guess Stardock's development into what is hopefully for them, a new and sustainable market of end users.

Then there are the aspects of customisation that bring individuals together to form a core community of engineers, artists, cheerleaders etc.. There are other customisation groups/sub groups of course beyond this site, but this one relates itself to Stardock products of one kind or another. As a result, cries of SD fanboy etc. whenever they come are largely irrelevent to many of us, because we value the processes of customisation for it's own end and so tend to support that which enables it.

Returning to my lack of understanding, a post like this addressed to the community would normally, assuming it has a function beyond that of an expression of frustration, be seeking to achieve one of two things:-

It would be announcing a fire and asking for support in quenching the flames - or alternatively/preferably, it would be pre-empting a fire and asking for support in preventing damage to those things we value.

Either way, if you are proposing that there is something positive that community members can do to support any or all of the core features we have come to enjoy, and which you feel are now threatened, it would be useful to have those ideas presented in a way we can make use of. If you are asking for ideas, then yet again, doing so in a focussed format and in a way that makes those that respond feel they are being listened to may be useful.

If on the other hand, the core issues raised in these twin threads,of beta-testing, together with the creation of sustainable, quality assured, member driven skins aren't as crucial to the bigger picture as I may feel have been suggested, then what is it that members of this community can do? Is it simply that the point of the post is to preface a change in direction that the community cannot directly effect regardless of efforts on it's part?
Reply #116 Top
Either way, if you are proposing that there is something positive that community members can do to support any or all of the core features we have come to enjoy, and which you feel are now threatened, it would be useful to have those ideas presented in a way we can make use of. If you are asking for ideas, then yet again, doing so in a focussed format and in a way that makes those that respond feel they are being listened to may be useful.

If on the other hand, the core issues raised in these twin threads,of beta-testing, together with the creation of sustainable, quality assured, member driven skins aren't as crucial to the bigger picture as I may feel have been suggested, then what is it that members of this community can do? Is it simply that the point of the post is to preface a change in direction that the community cannot directly effect regardless of efforts on it's part?
End of quote


Well said AS! There has been reference to the early days when a smaller group of users had a larger ratio of skinners in the mix and they provided the necessary beta testing etc and that is no longer the case, ergo, the need for the company to provide its own testers and inherit the associated cost. I find this problematic for several reasons, the first being that I have been here a while and never been asked to participate in any form of beta testing for any of the products. A single sentence in a release article about "tell us any issues" does not constitute a true invitation to beta test a product.

Secondly, how can it be reasonably assumed that any newer members to the site will know the history or have any idea that beta testing is a desired form of assistance expected of members? Are any of us truly expected to say, "ah I see, it is my fault for not fulfilling some unwritten part of the seller/user relationship and therefore prices must go up" ?

I have said before, if SD wants to raise the price to sustain or increase profitability, just do it, (and the free market will eventually decide if that is successful), rather than this approach which leaves one in the quandary that you so well described.
Reply #117 Top
What really gets me is the posts we still had about this matter and that were left alone pretty soon without any further word or updates. That is for product announcements (DesktopX) and for some 'How we want to change and get better' SD postings.

If it all should get more professional and customer based,the most valid points still for me are :

- Lack of documentation
- A really open information about products and open and regular communication between developers and customers, not just pop-in once in a while into the forums and then leave the thread alone even without a solution (I still think, the interfacing between error reports on the forums and the developers should be done by one person that focuses on this full time)
- Lack of updates for older purchase skins (there are so many great old skins, that still would be great and attract more people)

Another thing that really gets obvious all the time for me as being a german and trying to give support to OD users in their native language on a german deskmodding forum with over 10000 users is that SD really underestimates its chances and opportunities in other countries. Everything is so focused on english speaking countries, like expecting everybody to have a credit card or paypal account as the most obvious thing (money order is ridiculous expensive for that matter), but also the language files which still rely on USERS doing them. And that is not done in an hour or so as You have to find special phrases for nearly everything while translating those files. I know that, I have done the german translations for DesktopX and WindowBlinds 4 and 5 (and am still on it for WB6).
I still think letting professionals do the translations would be far more succesful and have a positive impact on sales. And that is not only for the software but also for websites and documentations. Sure, that would make the products more expensive, but many people would be really glad to have a german WindowBlinds with a german documentation for example. Also if You use IconX, DesktopX, Widgets, Gadgets or whatever, the Desktop menu switches to english. I have mentioned and criticized this since years and never got an answer why that has to be like this. The only way to change that is using RightClick. But hey, that one loses it's config from time to time. So You can't hand that to JoeUser also...

Brad, I really hope You will not see my thoughts as bitching You or the company again, I have said several times that I really love Your products. But I am lucky that my english and understanding my PC is quite good and I can help myself if something goes wrong. There is a huge market of users out there, that can't, but want to use Your products...

Sure, all this would make the products more expensive, but THAT I would like to pay for.
Reply #118 Top
As for the beta matter : When downloading a beta from my OD subscription it is clear to me that it can have errors and often enough I reported them. In my understanding everybody that downloads betas should be aware that he should report errors to the developer or just leave the download alone. That's what betas are there for, right ?
Reply #119 Top

As for the beta matter : When downloading a beta from my OD subscription it is clear to me that it can have errors and often enough I reported them. In my understanding everybody that downloads betas should be aware that he should report errors to the developer or just leave the download alone. That's what betas are there for, right ?

End of quote
I'm sure you know there is a distinction to be made between error reporting and beta-testing.

A beta tester should have some ongoing awareness of their system state, such as when a perceived anomaly occurs, they can seek to describe and reproduce the error in a way that is useful to the developer. I normally find I'm working with a dedicated team, often reporting within a hidden part of a forum, with people that develop a shared understanding of testing/reporting techniques for the respective product.

It's not so useful when a developer asks the error reporter for more information about the environment they were operating in, at the point at which the error presented, only for the reporter to e-mail back that he/she thinks it was raining at the time. ;p
Reply #120 Top
Okay, be sure that I don't mean the last thing. ;)
Reply #121 Top
As far as beta testing goes....

Maybe a group of "dedicated" testers with access to a private forum where it won't get flooded with non-related posts, and where the developers/staff will have direct access to the testers. 


Reply #122 Top

They are a business and are in it for profit not to do you a favor... SD fan boys are almost as bad as apple fan boys...
End of quote

I was wondering when the 'SD fan boys' phrase would pop up.

It really is childishly presumptuous of any one person to categorize anyone/everyone who supports one entity or another as 'fan boys' which presupposes a lack of commonsense intelligence and simple nous on the part of the 'fans'.

It is quite possible that those accused/classified as 'fan boys' actually have valid and educated opinions through long experience and interaction.

Let's not 'colour' our classification of disparate opinion-holders through invective....;)

Yes, Stardock is a company.  No, Wincustomize.com is NOT a company.  The latter is a Community that is subsidized by the former, so, as it currently stands the latter would not exist without the apportioning of 'profits' from the former.  It's simply how it is.  People are not 'fan boys' because they understand and appreciate the symbiosis - they are fans because they enjoy and share the same interests as the people at Stardock.... skins and skinning....;)

Reply #123 Top
Forgot to mention.... a 'fan boy' is more correctly called a 'punkah wallah' ....;)
Reply #124 Top
Yes, Stardock is a company. No, Wincustomize.com is NOT a company. The latter is a Community that is subsidized by the former, so, as it currently stands the latter would not exist without the apportioning of 'profits' from the former. It's simply how it is. People are not 'fan boys' because they understand and appreciate the symbiosis - they are fans because they enjoy and share the same interests as the people at Stardock.... skins and skinning....
End of quote


And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
Reply #125 Top
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
End of quote
Informed opinion that opposes your own = fan boy?  ;)

You'll find lots of criticism of both Stardock, their apps, their business practices, Wincustomize here in the forums but it's still the best game in town for what the users want.    People support what feeds thier needs and wants.