Frogboy Frogboy

Is skinning a community or a market?

Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008

https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=19&aid=176998
frogboy-iconWhen skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups.  The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general.  In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".

Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less.  In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.

As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved.  Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations.  The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things).  Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs.  Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems.  It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it. 

The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works.  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20.  Those products are $50 to $70.   The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).

Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market.  Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products. 

I've written an article that goes into more detail.  Click the link below to check it out. 

78,905 views 249 replies
Reply #126 Top
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
End of quote


I didn't say SD could never do wrong, Shadow Lord. I have simply made the choice to support a company whose products I enjoy using. I have a few minor issues with SD, but they aren't enough for me to berate Brad and Company or the way the buisness is run. We all make the choice to either purchase the software and deal with it (as I have), or bitch about money I'm not spending (as you are)....
Reply #128 Top
Informed opinion that opposes your own = fan boy?
End of quote


Unless of course your informed opinion is not in agreement with the fan boys in which case you are a whiner.

Give me a break... passion is blurring the *informed* on both sides of the argument.
But I must say I don't see Jafo posting when the just as derogatory "whiner" gets thrown around. But then again, I guess it's okay when the "good guys" are childishly presumptuous concerning those who disagree with them.

The simple fact is a lot of long time users are frustrated with the current state of affairs. Maybe skinners don't want to hear that, maybe that don't want to hear what is bothering us, maybe they just want us to shut-up, pay the money, and download. The fact of the matter is just because we disagree with how things are and how they should be, does not mean we care any less about the SD products we use. We are passionate because we want the products to have a future.

If this tool is ever going to be mainstream, the skinners need to come to the realization that their customers are not skinners, they are customizers. As customization becomes more mainstream, people don't care what goes into any of it, they want to buy a product, plug it in and have it work. Skinning may be a community, but the business side of it, customization(using skins not making them), is a market and I feel that if Stardock wants to keep the product viable they need to realize this fact and address it.




Reply #129 Top
Skinning may be a community, but the business side of it, customization(using skins not making them), is a market and I feel that if Stardock wants to keep the product viable they need to realize this fact and address it.
End of quote


I think this is what the article is trying to determine. Somewhat of an informal survey so to speak. If the average user is becoming more of a user than an actual skinner then maybe it's time for Stardock to transition to content focus with a feature limited Theme Application and an increase in price for those interested in the skinning sides of things?

If the reciprocal arrangement of community involved development is disappearing maybe it's also time for Wincustomize to sink or swim on it's own? In my opinion those costs could be better spent in development. Not saying Stardock wouldn't still support the site through advertising, events, sponsorship, etc but, those are far less costly than footing the bulk of the costs for an unprofitable site.

Then again my education is accounting and my expertise is in purchasing/inventory management;so, I tend to have an negative perspective on costs.
Reply #130 Top
I think this is what the article is trying to determine. Somewhat of an informal survey so to speak. If the average user is becoming more of a user than an actual skinner then maybe it's time for Stardock to transition to content focus with a feature limited Theme Application and an increase in price for those interested in the skinning sides of things?
End of quote


I would think Stardock would have all the numbers on this already. How many customers, what percentage of those are skinners, what percentage are only users... etc... It is my gut feeling though that the majority of people posting are skinners but the majority of customers are actually just users. I am sure they will do the proper analysis.

If the reciprocal arrangement of community involved development is disappearing maybe it's also time for Wincustomize to sink or swim on it's own? In my opinion those costs could be better spent in development.
End of quote


The thing is Stardock's current site is a marketing portal, the main costs from operating WC are probably incurred on user support/admin side of things, which they can't really get rid of and those costs will increase with the number of customers. If they could get rid of WC/forums all together I am sure they could save a lot of money, but I am not so sure that they would be saving much by only losing the "community" features.




Reply #131 Top
If they could get rid of WC/forums all together I am sure they could save a lot of money, but I am not so sure that they would be saving much by only losing the "community" features.
End of quote
  We do a lot of f"ree" tech support.  That cost would go up without us around.
Reply #132 Top
I dont see SD closing up WC as a viable option..


#1. The skins here are owned by the artists, so without Permission couldn't be taken and redistributed. This would severely limit the skins offered to the public. The softwares popularity IMO is propelled by the sheer number of wonderful skins contained at WC, to strip all them away could possibly be a killing blow.

WC offers a huge asset if only in the fact it stores the majority of the skins made for the apps, without it the customers would have to search through numerous sites. ( if you have ever been through DA it is not always an easy task)

#2. WC has probably been a great tool to introduce folks to customization/skinning, as people stumble in here looking for wallpapers and find other stuff to customize their desktops. To remove WC would remove a big advertisement and source of available content for the software.

#3. WC has been a great resource for bringing new artists in to view and allowing them to blossom in to great artists. Those of which have delved out the majority of the skins offered. Without WC around these artists would have to congregate else ware and make it harder for contractors like SD to recruit them.

As well as the free tech support etc..as Zubaz stated earlier ;)



Reply #133 Top
HG_E...........But all this comes at a cost and the last estimate I saw was $150,000 for running WC. That's a lot of Windowblinds sales  ;) 
Reply #134 Top
HG_E...........But all this comes at a cost and the last estimate I saw was $150,000 for running WC. That's a lot of Windowblinds sales
End of quote


Well some of that is probably off set by WC subscriptions as well as ad placement.

Many Free programs have died off or dropped in popularity after skinners stopped offering skins for them. Trilian for example: it used to be my main chat prog.. but lacking in a decent number of usable skins I dropped it, as have many others.

If WC closed doors and removed the Free skins offered. Im not sure SD (the desktop customization side) would do so well.

To me the idea of being able to mix and match from a huge supply of skins is the determining factor, to limit folk's to canned themes or a tiny variety would get redundant and be just as boring as luna it's self.

I like to customize my desktop, not just theme it. ;)
Reply #135 Top
Regardless of cost, I can't see how Stardock could drop WC.
They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site, but the truth of the matter is the site is a Stardock asset, and that asset comes with a cost. Like Zubaz said, getting rid of community based support would also require more investment in official support. For any software company today, having a web site is the price of doing business. Stardock's official site doesn't stand on it's own, WC fills in the holes. If Stardock got rid of WC they would have to beef up the official site, and at the end of the day I just don't know how much savings they would really see. They want to play WC as a "community" site, but make no mistake it is an essential part of their business(under their current model). Even if they go to a 100% professionally developed content model in the future, getting rid of WC would probably not be a viable option to long after that change took place.

Reply #136 Top
Well I wasn't really meaning eliminating WC just separating the two. Stardock does have it's own forum that is integrated with WC. That would mean in order to get specific support you would have to be a regular Stardock customer.

Nor was I intending that Stardock would disappear from WC and obviously it would perhaps still be the biggest partner/supporter. Paying ad revenue based on standard metrics, I'm sure would be far cheaper than the actual cost of running the site.

Zubaz made a good point too as I'm wondering what the trade off would be in terms of support costs.

Have to say these are both exciting and trying times in the customization community and it's great that the leading software company in the market does have these frank discussions. On the other hand it's hard to fairly compare this segment to any other software market. For example gaming in particular as we all know how fanatical people can be about their hobbies and have a spare no cost attitude. That just isn't the case for the majority of skinners.
Reply #137 Top
They want to play WC as a "community" site, but make no mistake it is an essential part of their business(under their current model)
End of quote



Make no mistake it is a community, a few of the community elders,decided to start a business offering a program no other could do,skin the windows. Many of the community jumped on board and offered support to this growing company as well as offered content. We have watched and helped nurture this company anyway we can.

Why? because they are friends, I chat often with the SD/WC folks we laugh,shoot the breeze, share life's daily goings on and some times console each other when theres a tragedy. Many of them I have known or been around with since before WC was formed, A few before WB was out.


When my mom passed I was crushed, my pals at WC and SD and the community at large, were always there to chat with and console me, some even wanted to send care packages etc. So don't "claim" to know what you are sorely misinformed on.

Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.

SD didn't make the create the skinning community it just offered us a great place to hang out.


Reply #138 Top
Regardless of cost, I can't see how Stardock could drop WC.
End of quote


Very true.It's what got me here. :) 
Reply #139 Top
Don't take it personally it wasn't meant to be.

Make no mistake it is a community, a few of the community elders,decided to start a business offering a program no other could do,skin the windows. Many of the community jumped on board and offered support to this growing company as well as offered content. We have watched and helped nurture this company anyway we can.
End of quote

It might not taste good, but like it or not WC is a Stardock asset. It may be an asset that encompasses a community, but it is a business asset just the same. Now you might not like being called an asset, but that doesn't change it.

When my mom passed I was crushed, my pals at WC and SD and the community at large, were always there to chat with and console me, some even wanted to send care packages etc. So don't "claim" to know what you are sorely misinformed on.

Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.
End of quote


I am not trying to discuss whether or not people have friends and relationships here, as I assume people do. I am in fact not speaking about the state of the community here at all. I am simply talking about the business side of it. If SD dropped desktop customization, chances are this community would dissolve or move somewhere else, because I doubt they would be able to maintain WC without the business side of things. Everyone's contributions, to skins, user support, transfering skills, all of these things are a huge asset to Stardocks business. You may be doing it for the "community" but that doesn't change that there is a very real business side of the equation, you may choose to ignore it but it doesn't change it.



Reply #140 Top
The fact of the matter is just because we disagree with how things are and how they should be, does not mean we care any less about the SD products we use. We are passionate because we want the products to have a future.
End of quote


Full ACK.

Reply #141 Top
I don't Ignore the Business side of it, and we all recognize the asset WC is to SD. To imply that WC was solely designed as a business asset for SD is false.


It would seem a few are trying to push us to believe SD only looks at us as an asset, instead of as friend's. From what I remember, WC for a long time cost more than it brought in on it's own. Brad and the SD staff could have easily dropped WC and built a streamlined skin/help page's at Stardock.com ,like winamp and others have done, but instead decided to keep WC going. why? only they could tell.

IMO if SD "only" looked at us like "assets to be harvested" they would have done away with WC and gone the route most company's have.
Reply #142 Top
Regardless of cost, I can't see how Stardock could drop WC.
End of quote


I would not 'count my chickens' on that one.

Say, Stardock went the 'commercial route' e.g vastly slimmed down number of apps available, widespread MyColors availability made by pro skinners etc, ask yourself a question. Would they really need Wincustomize? An add-on to their Stardock site would do just as well.

I love all the sentiment about 'the community' but lets face facts. Times have changed. I love this place and the community as much as anyone else but skinners are in decline and Stardock want to go after mainstream customers. There is a huge market out there for people who just want to push a button and make their desktop look great. They don't want to skin or fiddle about with everything. This is a huge potential WORLDWIDE market. If guided in the right direction and marketed well Stardock could see a huge and I mean a huge income from this area however a big move in this direction is going to cost a lot of time, effort and money.

If Stardock made a successful foray into the MyColors public market the people here at Wincustomize would be very much a small part of the total customer base. You may ask "Well, where would the next generation of skinners come from to build the pro MyColors skins when the current guys drop out for whatever reason?" Again don't kid yourself on that one. There are many good graphics artists out there who know their trade and could quite quickly turn their hand to building all the stuff that Stardock would want.

Yep, I hear Zubaz's point about the support that this site offers but again, don't kid yourself. This area could quite easily be covered by Stardock without any additional resources. Many companies go through this and just juggle with resources and costs. Yep, there maybe a longer wait to get your problem sorted but hell that's the norm with most customer services nowadays.

Whatever Stardock do, it should be for one reason and one reason alone. Put all the histrionics and sentiment to one side and just do "What is right for Stardock given the changing nature of their business".

I hope there is a place for the Wincustomize "community" in the Stardock future but changing tides, a huge untapped market, aspirations, ambition and need for fullfilment cannot be denied.

I can see why Frogboy is having sleepless nights with the decisions he has to make, but whatever he decides I truly wish him and Stardock the very best on their journey to greater and better things...........hoping they leave sentiment and histrionics to one side........and do whats right for Stardock and Stardock alone.

Reply #143 Top
There definitely seems to be some miscommunication here, so let me clarify.
I do not think and was not trying to imply that WC is solely a business asset.
In fact I think it is both.

Now I think my statement,
"They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site"
is what is getting you all riled up so let me explain.

I think Stardock often tries to portray this as ONLY a community site, and they paint the picture that they do it entirely out of the kindness of their hearts.

I am not doubting the kindness of their hearts, but the realist/cynic in me tells me their is more to it than that. And what I was trying to say was, even if they went all eric cartman and said "screw you guys, I'm going home", the reality is that the business side of things will make sure this site remains.






Reply #144 Top
Good points Leo.

Still I am not sure how much WC is really costing them now, above and beyond the Stardock website upkeep costs they already pay. If it really is a massive expense, you may very well be right. But I still think it will take a long time for that transition to occur.





Reply #145 Top
It might not taste good, but like it or not WC is a Stardock asset. It may be an asset that encompasses a community, but it is a business asset just the same. Now you might not like being called an asset, but that doesn't change it.
End of quote


Jeffery,

Don't waste your breath. I've been saying the same thing for years (look up many of my old posts) and there is always a number of fan... I mean logical, rational people, with lots of good data to backup their claims saying it isn't... Like I said it is a catch 22 and it sucks for SD but a FREE, fully functioning WC is part of the cost of doing business for them. Unless of course they only want commercial (nvidia, nfl, nintendo, etc...) accounts... In which case they can have a very stable revenue stream for a while but no real growth potential...

Reply #146 Top
There definitely seems to be some miscommunication here, so let me clarify.
I do not think and was not trying to imply that WC is solely a business asset.
In fact I think it is both.

Now I think my statement,
"They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site"
is what is getting you all riled up so let me explain.

I think Stardock often tries to portray this as ONLY a community site, and they paint the picture that they do it entirely out of the kindness of their hearts.

I am not doubting the kindness of their hearts, but the realist/cynic in me tells me their is more to it than that. And what I was trying to say was, even if they went all eric cartman and said "screw you guys, I'm going home", the reality is that the business side of things will make sure this site remains.
End of quote



Man are we on the same wavelength... Except for the kindness of their heart bit... I've seen way to many statements from Brad and co deriding costumers to beleive they give a real damn about costumers who put down money and then expect service... Yeah if you pay, shut up, and praise them great. If you make skins and buy products you are o.k. too.. BUT god forbid you pay and expect high quality skins for free to make use of their program then you are an entitled whiner who is driving costs up by not beta testing/QAing software for free and not producing any skins...
Reply #147 Top
Seems to me that every three months or so we go through this same conversation, usually started by a post from Brad that ends up with a discussion of the viability of WC, the cost of WC, the fact that SD doesn't need WC, etc. We all jump in with our opinions and to me is is getting a bit old for one reason: we have no facts!

We do not know any of the real cost structure of SD or WC. We do not know the number of subscribers, skinners, freeloaders, personal wages allocated to WC, accounting set up of WC/SD vis-a vis subscriptions, etc. Without a P&L statement and a balance sheet, we all just assume things or shoot in the dark. Although it might prove interesting entertainment for those in SD that do know the facts, it is useless from the users point of view. I always feel that I am just getting set up for the next round of price increases, subscription drives, what have you.
Reply #148 Top
Except for the kindness of their heart bit
End of quote


You would then be very surprised to hear that it is not uncommon to get Brad's ear on chat/ email to discuss whatever silly issue you have. My past experiences have assured me that he really does care ALOT! Especially to endure my petty bullshit.

Seems to me that every three months or so we go through this same conversation
End of quote


Many conversations around here get duplicated over and over because new people enter the ring and raise the same issues over and over. It will always be this way until the member base starts to drop off. As things grow it will only become more common.  :) 



Reply #149 Top
Many conversations around here get duplicated over and over because new people enter the ring and raise the same issues over and over. It will always be this way until the member base starts to drop off. As things grow it will only become more common.
End of quote


Right you are!
Reply #150 Top
You would then be very surprised to hear that it is not uncommon to get Brad's ear on chat/ email to discuss whatever silly issue you have. My past experiences have assured me that he really does care ALOT! Especially to endure my petty bullshit.
End of quote


Oh don't get me wrong: I am not saying Brad is not a nice guy or caring or what not as a person. But the fact that he will listen to you about your dead goldfish (sorry for the sarcasm) does not mean he cares about customers. He has made many post moaning about freeloaders, entitled costumers, whiners.... He might help me out if I was stranded on the side of the road because he is a nice huy but I don't believe for a second he cares if I think WB is a good or bad value based on the number of free "master level" skins...