Frogboy Frogboy

Is skinning a community or a market?

Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008

https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=19&aid=176998
frogboy-iconWhen skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups.  The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general.  In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".

Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less.  In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.

As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved.  Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations.  The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things).  Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs.  Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems.  It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it. 

The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works.  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20.  Those products are $50 to $70.   The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).

Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market.  Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products. 

I've written an article that goes into more detail.  Click the link below to check it out. 

78,909 views 249 replies
Reply #151 Top
He might help me out if I was stranded on the side of the road because he is a nice huy but I don't believe for a second he cares if I think WB is a good or bad value based on the number of free "master level" skins...
End of quote


Of course he cares, even if for no other reason than he wants you to buy it. He knows you will not do so if your do not perceive value.
Reply #152 Top

BUT god forbid you pay and expect high quality skins for free
End of quote

You DO get 'high quality skins for free'.  It's what the skinners provide/upload here on Wincustomize and all the other skinning sites.

Where's the beef?

As with all merchandise/art/craft/creativity  there is scope for free, economical, pricey and/or exorbitant product.  The world is a big place...and sufficiently diverse that catering for all means some may be commercial [premium] and some may be freely accessible.

Were that not the case we'd all rush off to the Louvre and snap up that 'free' Mona, wouldn't we?....;)

...or perhaps some silly bint with a smirk isn't what you're looking for, free or not.

As with all artwork it isn't necessarily going to appeal to everyone....which brings up that old argument...and the reason many skinners started out.... if you can't find something you like...then DIY ....;)

Reply #153 Top
I don't believe for a second Brad cares if I think WB is a good or bad value based on the number of free "master level" skins...
End of quote


Your totally wrong, not only is he a good guy but without having to go into detail I know for a fact he happens to care a lot about providing Master quality skins for WB to the community. ;) 
Reply #154 Top

How the heck did this conversation get into whether Stardock should have WinCustomize or not.

The real bottom line issue here is about software pricing. For years, the community took co-responsibility for the quality of the software in working closely with developers (not just Stardock but the makers of eFX, Hoverdesk, Litestep, etc.).

But since skinning has gone mainstream, the bulk of the users view it as a traditional producer/consumer relationship. And that is fine. But the reality is that the software prices were predicated on the older model - that the cost of the software as less because the community was providing content and helping with QA.

The result is that already things have begun to adapt to that. Master skins are one example. If the latest wave of consumers can't help produce the content, that's okay. But we'll have to encourage the existing top skinners to keep skinning even after they may not be quite as interested as they were when it was "new and cool".

Similarly, if the responsibility for QA is going to be wholly on the developer -- like it is in most markets -- that's fine too but it does mean that the price of the software will go up.

There's no such thing as a fre lunch. What most users don't realize is how lucky they were that skinners and community members were doing so much of the heavy lifting. It was those contributing members who were subsidizing the price of the software and content. But over time, the skinning community is much much smaller than the "skinning market" which simply treats skinning like any consumer market - they pay for X and get Y in return with it very spelled out.

As to those who don't think Stardock is helping, I think some people need to look at the most popular skins. At the rate things are going, in 2 months the majority of most popular top 10 skins will be made for and paid for by Stardock and provided for free.

Reply #155 Top
How the heck did this conversation get into whether Stardock should have WinCustomize or not
End of quote


That was me meandering way the heck off topic. Merely was trying to demonstrate (albeit poorly) the cost/benefit relationship of community participation.

Listen, it's obvious Brad cares or we wouldn't see these posts. There would be autocratic decisions such as prices increasing and a take it or leave it attitude.

Sounds like the price increase is inevitable but, with the MyColors option available maybe this will clear up some of these market issues. Obviously, if all you're interested in is applying and not actually making themes then WindowBlinds perhaps isn't the best choice for you.

I for one find the community invigorating, especially when new users appear so full of excitement from finding and making their first creations. Also, I enjoy getting both negative and positive "constructive" feedback.

Sadly that has diminished not only at WC but, throughout the community as a whole. It's amazing how negative feedback can be a bigger motivator than positive.

Reply #156 Top
But we'll have to encourage the existing top skinners to keep skinning even after they may not be quite as interested as they were when it was "new and cool".
End of quote


I'll more than likely be skinning to the grave.. perhaps beyond.  X-(  ;p

Definately more appealing than sitting in traffic, then a cubicle, then traffic..again...and really, how many people have the opportunity to work in their valentines day boxers?  :LOL: 

Really I encourage anyone with talent and vision to think about taking it up more seriously. I've said and will keep saying there is a huge commercial market that can be opened up for the taking and most likely the problem is going to be not enough quality skinners to take up the slack.
Reply #157 Top

Perhaps its time to rebrand and remarket the whole thing. A two way split is inevitable at this point: those who just want to make their desktop look nice and get the content to do it, and those who are interested in more serious customization including skinning.

At the first stage, you would have MyColors at a low price point. Perhaps coming with a basic set of skins which the user then can add to at an additional cost. There are no programs to install, and the skins are professionally made and offer complete desktop customization. I suspect the bulk of users would be happy with that.

Then at the next stage you could have MyColors Professional, which can not only do the above, but would include downloadable programs currently in Object Desktop for the serious customizer.

You have both satisfied there - the user who just wants 'stuff' and no messing, and the skinner who likes to mess...

Reply #158 Top
Good post Fuzzy
Reply #159 Top
As with all artwork it isn't necessarily going to appeal to everyone....which brings up that old argument...and the reason many skinners started out.... if you can't find something you like...then DIY ....
End of quote


Now that is the most ridiculousargument I always hear... Its like saying: "You don't like the state of healthcare in this country then become a doctor yourself" or "you don't like windows well write your own OS"... If I wanted/could do it myslef then I wouldn't be paying you guys, right? But if I pay you guys it is because I want you to do it for me...
Reply #160 Top
Of course he cares, even if for no other reason than he wants you to buy it. He knows you will not do so if your do not perceive value.
End of quote


No he doesn't because simply buying WB is not enough for me as the consumer or for him as the producer. Brad knows the real money is in selling skins: people will get tired of skins they have and want new ones, or new skins will come out and people will want those but someone can buy WB w/ subscription and really never need to buy again for a few years until the program siginificantly changes... (In other words he wants to become gillete and make money on the razors (skins), because that is where the money is, not in the handle (WB)...)

I, as the consumer, know WB is useless to me unless I can get a large and varied set of high quality skins. I want skins that make use of the latest wiz bang features of WB and of course since I shelled out money I don't want to have to shell out more money to make use of he program I just bought. To brad this makes me an entitled whiny costumer (or even worse internet user who expects everything to be free on the net) and he has on more than one occasion shown his disdain for my kind of people...
Reply #161 Top
You DO get 'high quality skins for free'. It's what the skinners provide/upload here on Wincustomize and all the other skinning sites.
Where's the beef?
End of quote


O.k. Jaffo,

Lets do some math:

I am user Joe Blow, and just bought WB6 to go along with my fancy shmancy vista PC... I go on WC and look for WB skins and I see I can filter out the skins that will best use my investment (i.e. are WB6 and Vista ready).. Cool, I get 21 skins that meet those criteria. But wait a second out of 21 skins 1/3 (seven) I have to pay for (Master Skins). And as for the others gour are made by the newly formed SD design studio because well SD has realized there are not alot of quality skins beign produced any more and if they want to keep selling they need to put out free quality skins. So that leaves 10 FREE skins submitted by users (less than 50%). So where are the thousands of high quality skins for free on this site for WB6 and vista users (i.e. the guy who just bought the latest and greates WB and windows)???

So the user has a choice of 10 free skins and he better hope he likes one of them if he wants to get the most out of his investment. Otherwise, he can pay or get an older skin that may or may not work and will certainly not have all the latest features that he paid for...

There is the beef. Before the ratio was ~99.1%:0.1% for free vs. paid so just aboput naybody could fins something they liked. And of course the current ratio is going to continue to worsen.

There is a real easy solution to the problem but neither SD nor the skinners will like it and in the end it may not be viable: change the master skinner program to include productivity/quality ratios.

The new program would req. master skinners to maintain a 1:2 or 1:3 paid/master skin:free ratio to guarantee a high supply of free skins. It would also req. the free skins to be perform at a certain level compared to the paid ones. For exmaple if skinner A's master skins on average have a 4.5 rating then his free skins need to maintain a 4.0 star rating at the minimum to ensure that they are not putting out crap to keep up ratios and saving the good stuff for the paid skins. If they fall of the ratio then they can't sell again until the ratio is met.
Reply #162 Top
10 skins is a start. Vista isn't even close to universally adopted yet. :)

Skinning Vista is a challenge. In time there will be more skins but there won't be many good ones for free. There will be alot but how good they are depends on the user.
With the time and patience needed to skin Vista there will be a lull in Vista skins, that's why it is important to encourage people to at least give it a try.
Reply #163 Top

The amount of contribution is inversely proportional to the amount of bollocks - simple maths...  ;p 

Reply #164 Top

Perhaps its time to rebrand and remarket the whole thing. A two way split is inevitable at this point: those who just want to make their desktop look nice and get the content to do it, and those who are interested in more serious customization including skinning.


At the first stage, you would have MyColors at a low price point. Perhaps coming with a basic set of skins which the user then can add to at an additional cost. There are no programs to install, and the skins are professionally made and offer complete desktop customization. I suspect the bulk of users would be happy with that.


Then at the next stage you could have MyColors Professional, which can not only do the above, but would include downloadable programs currently in Object Desktop for the serious customizer.


You have both satisfied there - the user who just wants 'stuff' and no messing, and the skinner who likes to mess...

End of quote


Now I like that. Streamlined product choice. Both beneficial to the maker and the customer. Both practical and appealing. Great suggestion, Fuzzy  :) 
Reply #165 Top
I think Shadow Lord makes a very valid point when it comes to Vista users.

If you take the Neowin poll on OS choice and useage, you will see that there has been a very large uptake on Vista, which now exceeds XP quite substancially.

If you couple the limited choice that Vista users face together with the Vista problems that Frogboy mentioned earlier today, in this or another thread, you are loooking at quite a difficult situation.
Reply #166 Top
Shaddow lorrd - I would hardly call 20 dollars for the cost of WB6 an "investment." ;)  By the same token if one is that worried that much about 20$ and the number of higher quality skins available for their "investement" then perhaps it would behoove them to investigate beforehand. Only takes a second.

Secondly, Vista is still comparitively new, no one is forced into using it, if customization is of great importance to someone they have to the choice to use XP [dual boot even]. Vista skins will take time to infiltrate the scene as any new product does. Btw, there are more new Vista skins in the works.  ;) 

3. Your proposition for Master skinners equates to me telling you to work 'x' amount additional hours at your profession for the same amount of pay. It is unrealistic and flawed and I'm positive you would laugh at the proposal if reversed.

4. Anyone with WB and a free copy of SKS can just as easily take up skinning to suit their needs, It's not rocket science but extremely time consuming.

5. I don't think many people have any idea how much work\man hours go into making a high quality Xp and Vista Windowblind.

6. The Master skinner's have already paid their dues to the community as far as free work, in most cases years and years of contributing quality free skins. Even as a Master skinner, compared to the hours worked, I make very little money. None of us is getting rich from this.

Now, you want more? /me rolls eyes.

I mean how much do think you should get for 20 bucks??  :NOTSURE:

What i read in your posts is I want, I want, I want. Your asking far too much for what your paying. Period.

It's time for people to stop using their entitlement calculators for their math.


Reply #167 Top
Vista is relatively new on the market. So yes there will be fewer Skins for it compared to XP, I mean thats just common sense. As time goes on the library will fill with Vista Friendly skins.

Many of the Master skins are not Vista capable yet, so griping that they should be free because theres few Vista skins is kind of a moot point.


Lets put it this way. From what I see the majority did NOT switch to Vista out of necessity (XP works just fine), most switched to Vista to be at the fore front of technology. With that you SHOULD expect a delay of implementation/support,as being new and it takes time for the Sub markets to catch up. Popularity is the driving factor, as Vista gains in popularity more things will be added to its goody bag. The more popular it is, the faster the extras will be added. ;)

If you went out and bought a brand new gadget example: a new cell phone just released, it would be fool hardy and naive to grab it up from the MFG's site the day its released then run to all the stores acting confused and griping that they don't have all the accessories in stock. ;)

For $20. You get a Great Program with a fairly decent amount of skins provided. (not to mention the tons of free ones provided by the non commissioned skinning community.)


I think Fuzzys idea on multiple package's would be the way to go. IMO there should be 3 packages.

The skinners package: For the Contributing Artists of the skinning community. Price should possibly be pro rated on their contribution to the community etc. The more they contribute the price drops etc. This would offer Skinners a $ break and offer incentive for new skinners to join the community as well as possibly build more skins to be released. Maybe based on their WC level, Masters at the top get the best pricing.

The end user package: Set up for the end user who wants to click a button and see a new desk top , and is not interested in how or why it works.Price should be at a fair market value.

The Power users package: For those who want the skin building/tweaking ability, but aren't in to contributing to the community by help on forums or contributing skins etc. Price should be some what higher than the end user, as they will require the Building programs and extras, not to mention probably be requiring more support and help with working with the software.


IMO I see this as viable Packaging pricing for bringing skinning in to main stream.


Reply #168 Top
Night Train and vStyler those all are pointless arguments. Again you forget I am Joe Blow consumer. I don't know what adobe photographshop is, I don't know if Vista is new (but it is pretty), I don't know what a skinner is (do they pickup road kill???) And dual booting? Is that when you put on two condoms? All I know is I paid for my new puter w/ 256mb hd and 1 jig of rom w/ Vista and the SD program so it looks pretty.

You are still looking at it from the point of view of someone who is in the know and in the community. Someone who understands it takes time to produce skins, understands that some people think they should be able to make a living off of it, understand that vista is new and WB 6 is new... Joe Blow user doesn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't want to know... He just wants it to work. PERIOD. All the other arguments are BS.

As for the MasterSkinner (MS) thing well like I said SD, and MS won't like it and it is probably not viable but it is the only way that SD can ensure that the heavy lifting is continued to be done by the community (as Brad likes to put it). I mean MS are people too. If they put a lot of time into something they rather get paid for it so it is only natural that >50% of new skins are for pay only... As for my job you don't want to know the BS I hear. In fact there is a rabid bitch going around the country, I think she is running for office or something, who wants to double my work and cut my pay by 75%... And most of the public supports her so you ain't getting much sympathy from me... :)
Reply #169 Top
No he doesn't because simply buying WB is not enough for me as the consumer or for him as the producer. Brad knows the real money is in selling skins: people will get tired of skins they have and want new ones, or new skins will come out and people will want those but someone can buy WB w/ subscription and really never need to buy again for a few years until the program siginificantly changes... (In other words he wants to become gillete and make money on the razors (skins), because that is where the money is, not in the handle (WB)...)

I, as the consumer, know WB is useless to me unless I can get a large and varied set of high quality skins. I want skins that make use of the latest wiz bang features of WB and of course since I shelled out money I don't want to have to shell out more money to make use of he program I just bought. To brad this makes me an entitled whiny costumer (or even worse internet user who expects everything to be free on the net) and he has on more than one occasion shown his disdain for my kind of people...
End of quote


Part B is buying the skins, part A is buying the software. If he cares about part B as you suggest, than he must care about part A or part B can never happen.
Reply #170 Top
He just wants it to work. PERIOD.
End of quote


It does..Work. ;) 

You talk about Joe Blow as if they don't know how to get out of bed in the morning let alone make educated decisions on purchases.. thats his\your problem. Do a little research. ;) 

and again.. you or Joe Blow consumer has the right to ask for only so much for 20 bucks. Being uneducated about a product is not an excuse.
Reply #171 Top
20 bucks.
End of quote


Do you have any idea how many Nintendo and Playstation games I have that I played once and then never touched again because they sucked?

counting.............

28! All of which I paid at least $ 50.00 for.

How's that for a sucker?

2 bottles of really cheap wine will get you through through a Friday night and you piss that away in the morning.

Point being... It baffles me as to why people think they deserve so much for $ 20.00.
Reply #172 Top

If I wanted/could do it myslef then I wouldn't be paying you guys, right? But if I pay you guys it is because I want you to do it for me...
End of quote

Last I checked you have paid me diddly-squat.  [it's a mathematical term that equates to zero or null].

If you WERE to pay a skinner [on commission] to create a WB skin FOR YOU it would cost somewhere around a $1000, or worse....so even the Master/Premium skins are a pretty darn good price....yes, volume does that...;)

O.k. Jaffo,

Lets do some math:

I am user Joe Blow, and just bought WB6 to go along with my fancy shmancy vista PC... I go on WC and look for WB skins and I see I can filter out the skins that will best use my investment (i.e. are WB6 and Vista ready).. Cool, I get 21 skins that meet those criteria. But wait a second out of 21 skins 1/3 (seven) I have to pay for (Master Skins). And as for the others gour are made by the newly formed SD design studio because well SD has realized there are not alot of quality skins beign produced any more and if they want to keep selling they need to put out free quality skins. So that leaves 10 FREE skins submitted by users (less than 50%). So where are the thousands of high quality skins for free on this site for WB6 and vista users (i.e. the guy who just bought the latest and greates WB and windows)???
End of quote

Oh for crying out loud...I still use MY OWN skins...made years before WB6 OR XP, let alone Vista was even dreamed of....and the y work just fine [for me]...though the proviso is...I use Litestep.

It's utter bull if you think you can on ly use 10 skins.  THEY ALL WORK. [some better than others...but again, if you can't find one you like the TOOLS ARE THERE...do it, and no, you do NOT need a Medical Degree to practise ...so that analogy is shot...;)

 

Reply #173 Top

The new program would req. master skinners to maintain a 1:2 or 1:3 paid/master skin:free ratio to guarantee a high supply of free skins. It would also req. the free skins to be perform at a certain level compared to the paid ones. For exmaple if skinner A's master skins on average have a 4.5 rating then his free skins need to maintain a 4.0 star rating at the minimum to ensure that they are not putting out crap to keep up ratios and saving the good stuff for the paid skins. If they fall of the ratio then they can't sell again until the ratio is met.
End of quote

I'm sorry...but that's not ever going to happen...not in a real world.

Masters already attained the right/opportunity to submit skins at Premium rates [to be purchased] because they had already provided the public with substantial 'free' content.  These skinners are unindentured private individuals who deserve the right to determine what and how their works are offered to the public, be it all 'free' or all 'Premium' or a mix.  They are not contracted to Stardock or Wincustomize, and nor should they be, as this is specifically [amongst other things] what is meant by the term 'Community Site'...;)

Reply #174 Top
These skinners are unindentured private individuals who deserve the right to determine what and how their works are offered to the public, be it all 'free' or all 'Premium' or a mix.
End of quote


Here, here! Probably should be inserted in all threads of this type. BTW, is "unindentured" really a word?
Reply #175 Top

BTW, is "unindentured" really a word?
End of quote

It is, now...;)