Frogboy Frogboy

Is skinning a community or a market?

Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008

https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=19&aid=176998
frogboy-iconWhen skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups.  The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general.  In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".

Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less.  In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.

As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved.  Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations.  The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things).  Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs.  Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems.  It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it. 

The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works.  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20.  Those products are $50 to $70.   The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).

Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market.  Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products. 

I've written an article that goes into more detail.  Click the link below to check it out. 

78,897 views 249 replies
Reply #51 Top

Now for the same amount of money we paid in the past we get less and less skins.
End of quote

Not true. You have only ever got a few skins with the program. Everything else has been provided by the community for free. You have never paid me or anyone else for the skins you download from WinCustomize. Now we have the Master program which gives a little back to those who have given the most, why is that not fair?

Stardock is now providing some high quality free content. So, in reality, you are getting more for your money.

All you have ever purchased is a skinning program. That is all. The rest came from us. It is very disheartening for skinners to hear such misguided views. Regretably it's all to common.

Reply #52 Top
well said fuzzy :)
Reply #53 Top
I dont consider the entitlement crowd potential customers.Their minds are pretty much made up on the subject and not likely to change.
End of quote


I can't speak for the "entitlement" crowd at large, and I actually don't really consider myself to be "entitled" to anything.

When I first bought OD way back when, the community produced all the skins I could hope for. These days it is rarer and rarer that I find something to my tastes.
I *think* I understand Stardock's mentality behind master skins, and that they are designed to fill an ever increasing gap in community created content. But I didn't buy skins back then, and that is probably why I don't feel like buying them now, regardless of how cheap they are.

The thing is their has been very little discussion by anybody on why the "whiners" don't like master skins. But I'm pretty sure they don't hate master skinners, and I'm also pretty sure they are not all a bunch of software stealing warez hippies. So if these people are reasonable people, one would think that a little discussion would go a long way towards figuring out a scenario that they would find acceptable. Even if it didn't end in a solution, information on customers wants/needs is seldom useless.

They may think their minds are made up and you make think their minds are made up, but when people start talking about the specific problem, often it turns out people aren't as decided about something as they thought they were.

Just think if you only charged $1 for a skin, but sold it to every WoW player you'd be doing pretty good.










Reply #54 Top
I think the point made by SirSmiley "Hire a Skinner" in someother post is the option we are missing here.
Reply #55 Top
The thing is their has been very little discussion by anybody on why the "whiners" don't like master skins.
End of quote


This has been discussed many many times. The jist was some (vocal few) didn't want to pay skinners for their time and efforts. They feel the skins should be free and blasted the artists for wanting a lil compensation for their time.

The artists here with the exception of "Stardock Designs" are not in the employ of SD and share skins they build with us freely. A few Masters get the option of posting some skins for sale to help offset expenses etc. (PSP is not cheap and neither are many of the various programs for graphics used).

The entitlement crowd seems to think these artists who can work for months on end building one theme, while spending money out of their own pockets for the programs to build it,owe them all skins for free. They should be thanking the masters/and skinners in general for not closing up shop and going pro leaving them with nothing at all to DL.

IMO it's a slap in the face to the masters who have dedicated years to honing their skills and craft, to complain about the few dollars they ask on a random skin.

Yes I am a fan..This community has dedicated the time and effort to make my PC over the years look as cool as possible and not try to rob me blind while doing so.


Reply #56 Top
The percent of people that are active in the communitiy has decreased with customization going mainstream. There are several reasons for this:

- "The mass effect" - we feel less connected if there are a lot more people involved. Everyone of us here uses Microsoft Windows, but we don't feel as a part of a "Microsoft Community". It's the same effect if you work in a small firm versus working for a huge coorporation. Statistics show clearly that working morale decreases with increasing enterprise size. This effect is not limited to WC only, but is also a problem a lot of the smaller sized sites are struggling with.


- "The software" - OD has just gotten too good. Let me explain this: Where it took days to finish a refined skin in the old days, it would most likely take about a month to release an equal Vista-ready WB6 skins. The same thing goes for IconPackager. This automatically excludes almost everyone with a full-time job. It takes much more to tackle a project if you know that it will take you months before you see a result, than if you know that you are able to finish it in a weekend or two.

This can be clearly seen here by the masters skinners here, most of which are either currently unemployed, on disability leave, retired or are learned graphics-artists that already master the tool of the trade (Photoshop etc.....).


- "The librarys" - With WB and IP out of the league of most hobby customizators, there are the smaller libraries like bootskin, OD-icons, XP-Logons...... . But seriously, how many Firefox-icons, and Vista bootskins do we need?


Even though the above points might explain the decrease in active skinners, it does not fully explain (with exception of the first point maybe) why feedback to beta-releases is decreasing as well.

Possible solutions:
1. A different beta-conzept as already mentioned by some people above. SDC is an ideal tool do distribute the betas to a "core-userbase". You problably know by now the people that have provided good feedback in the past. Why not distribute the betas to them for free? Most betas are already time-limited so you wouln't have to give away your software.

2. Better communication: This has been mentioned in the past, and it usually gets better for a short time but declines again after a while. It is frustrating if we provide feedback on (sometimes major) bugs, but we don't get a reaction beyond: "we forward it to the developer" or "we are aware of this".

Why not inform us if you have other programs currently in the pipeline and you can't work on it right away? Why not removing that "DesktopX coming this months" from the webpage if you see that it is not possible to release it in time? Why not keep updating the release plan as originally posted by Zoomba last Spring? Why announce CursorFX as "officially released" and sell it without mentioning that it is still a beta?


I can understand Frogboys' furstration and I can see that going "commercial" is most likely the best way for any software company to go if a certain popularity is reached. Stardock will loose even more of the power-user basis which can provide feedback on betas, but it will certainly gain a lot of first-time users who will solely rely (and expect) Stardock to provide them with smoothly running software.

I personally can see that developer costs are increasing and filling in for the WB and IP-skins that were created in the past by the user-base, doesn't come cheaply either. I therefore certainly would support a price increase as long as my favourites (e.g RightClick) aren't dropped. However, I don't think I would support an OD-version solely based on "My Colours".

Reply #57 Top
Well I want to raise another point here : I am all for the Master Program and purchase skins, but please let us keep our value for a longer amount of time, same as we do now with an OD subscription and the updated apps. I have lots of purchased skins that were outdated pretty soon (Toon even had some bugs never updated) and even don't look right with newer versions of WB (not to mention Vista). I would even pay an update fee for them. That's for master skins and also official SD suites. For example, what the heck is the problem to let Paul do some live folders for the Apogee suite ??? It won't take him days of time.

Also at some point I personally simply gave up at suggestions for programs and errors as at some point I didn't feel taken serious in many accounts. Either the conversation stopped right in the middle and I didn't hear ever again from the developer (or even other instances like public relations for other matters), or simple requests are simply ignored (a prominent example is that we are still not able to save rightclick configuration although requested by a lot more users for really YEARS now).

And critics, even constructive ones ? Well I see where it brought me after so many years at WC, purchasing nearly everything SD has to offer and contributing 'some' content, I see people promoted (don't get this wrong, I am lucky for them) every month, who I don't even know or have noticed on this site.

But one thing is clear for me : If SD cuts all the little apps from Object Desktop to contain only the well selling ones, I will feel bad about it and 1st time after those many years consider carefully, if I will extend my OD subscription or not. I am no milk-cow and SD really can't complain about me not supporting them...

Am I frustrated about the direction SD is taking sometimes ? Yes I am.
Reply #58 Top
People get into customizing things so they can show them off. Since people rarely see our customized computers, it will never take off like everyone has hoped.

Perhaps someone can work there way into Michael Dell's bed and get Windowblinds and Iconpackager pre-installed on all Dell systems. :)





Reply #59 Top

Looking at the 'relative' origin of skinning...to our 'ancestral' site [skinz.org] ... the total number of community members/users was small, with a quite high proportion of active contributers/involvement.... certainly on a much greater order of magnitude than what we now have here...with over three million members/users...the question is just how many active people are there now involved in skinning and/or the forums?

The answer is...probably quite a bit more than back then... but a much significantly smaller percentage of total user-base.

Instead of many/most interaction being between skinners/programmers/bug-hunters and the odd user or ten, we now have a disproportionately large potential for 'just' users who have no interest in the societal aspect of skinning...but just want what they paid for to 'effing work'.

This IS the change.  It's the fault of skinning's newer mainstream success, as the focus shifts to a larger proportion of new people with no history or interest in the history of how skinning used to be [?] a symbiotic relationship between skinner/proggy-maker/user.

Ask anyone who has been around skinning a long time...they all will have cut their teeth on failed proggies and chasing new bug permutations.  I even remember many years ago Neil Banfield ask some skinner one time how he'd managed to get WB to 'do that'? - and HE was the coder...;)

These days, if it's going to be all about help-desks and demands of working software [or else] and refunds cos it did something unexpected then it's probably going to HAVE TO get into a new price bracket...like all those other Commercial wares...eg. Photoshop ... with commensurate pricing.

Back 'at the start' Windowblinds was probably a pretty good deal [price-wise]...so 8 or 9 years later it's ridiculously good.

Who's to say that what had/has kept skinning a 'cottage industry' is generally the skinnables are so low priced that they [the proggies and the skinners and skinning in general] are not taken seriously?

The commercial viability of skinning has been demonstrated by such projects as Mycolors and the Master skins, so skin users [some] are taking it seriously enough to liberate wallet moths...perhaps it's now time to rethink the Commercial status of the [SD] products themselves...;)

Reply #60 Top
I have written 3 responses to this and deleted them all.

Paying for content (IE Skins/Gadgets): Why is it that everyone looks at the master skinners like we are ripping people off for something they already paid for? Most of us do not work for SD, and are not being paid to make skins, gadgets, etc. We have paid our dues and made dozens if not hundreds of FREE skins/gadgets, and when we start to get better at our "ART" and try to make a few (and i mean FEW) $'s from this ART we get yelled at by people who have never even tried to draw a line before.
Let me put it this way, Do you have an iPOD? If so, did you pay big $ for it? ok, did you pay for the content on it, or did you EXPECT apple to GIVE you songs, videos? Or did you go torrent all your music? Its the same as a phone, I have seen people pay $3+ for a stupid ass 15 second RING-TONE, and not think anything about it. But a $4.95 gadget that took someone weeks or MONTHs to make, test, and refine is slammed for being a money grubber? WTH? - Grow up, pay for things you like, HERE and everywhere, or.. Make your own. And there are dozens of people here that will help you make your own.

Feedback on products: I have seen this go several ways, I have posted numerous posts on DX problems, bug, feature requests, some of them were fixed in days (hell in hours on 1) and other just get ignored. And at some point you get tired of bringing up the same problems over and over, so you stop giving feedback. I'm sure that has happened to all of us. I know this happened to me with CursorFX, it keep messing up over and over, I posted on this, gave people the feedback, and the only response i got (from sd and wd people) was to un-install it all, and re-install it. When i did that and it still didnt fix things, and posted on it still doing the same thing (moving the cursor UNDER the menus) I get told that i need to uninstall again. So we give up. If you want the feedback, have a dedicated place for it. I think thats the main issue. There are too many places here to post on DX for example. Multiple places to post, if we had 1 forum location for each product called BUGs and Feature Requests 1 for each product. That would be somewhere that SD personell need to monitor it not just WC Admins. This could help a lot. Instead of having dozens (or hundreds) of posts on the same issues all over the place.

Prices: I agree that if WB was a little more expensive and came with a "skin pack" or maybe pull the best skins together and make some cool packs that way, it would be good.

I have seen this community change from mostly skinners to mostly users and of course this is because the software has become easier to use, and more main-stream. I think everyone needs to ATTEMPT to make a skins, wb skins, dx widgets, etc. Just to see how hard they are (or how easy..lol).

Brad, I wish you luck with all these issues, its not going to be easy, but there are a LOT of us out here who love SD and are here to work WITH SD on making it better for all of us.
Reply #61 Top
I for one can't wait for Jesh to whip out his half-baked SuperDesk program or whatever it's called
End of quote


Half-baked? Interesting....
Reply #62 Top
One thing also that i would note is that the majority of people don't complain. I tend to see the same names cropping up time and again. In most of the Master skin threads the feedback is extremely positive. I feel most people appreciate and do not mind paying for the software.. and the skins. In a few years selling on Maxstyles I have yet to see a single solitary complaint about the sales of skins. Almost 100% positive and appreciative posts.

I am also curious to see what TSF is baking up.
Reply #63 Top
Stardock's had a good run. For the longest time it had the feel of a bunch of friends that got together on the weekends and messed around with shit and gave it to the community to cover the costs. Rapid release of betas for their other friends to try out. No one cared about the bugs because they wanted to help. The price point made it easy too. No one was too concerned about a bug or two because you knew it'd be fixed sooner or later . . and for $20 . . who could get too upset?

But over the years Stardock seems to have become successful.   ;)  I think it's having to transition from the "shareware' attitude of the early 90s into a "real" business. I think the success (and more standard model) of the games side of the company has helped illustrate what other options are available.

Stardock isn't the same, the skinning community isn't the same, the market isn't the same. It's not possible to pretend we can continue doing things the same way.

I understand that SD needs to focus on the flagship products and charge more for them. I'm cool with that. [I will mourn for ObjectBar though. Can you open source that for the *next* Bargmann to pick up?] I'm also cool with charging for the very best skins.

As an aside . . a user based bug tracking database would make Stardock's life much easier. Why not spend a little more time with SmartException (or something like it) so it can be run from the desktop or the web and capture data, crashlog, user info, versions of everything, and a user note. Post to a database and work from there. Another idea . . collect the power users once in a while in IRC for a bitch session. Other than support (which is great; thanks Milksama, Seabass, highlander!) the community has gotten farther away from the devs. Can we bring them closer? I think your IRC sessions for your games have been interesting and useful. Even if most of the community doesn't attend, readign the logs could do a lot.

Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? ;) That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
Reply #64 Top
Well put Zubaz, however I still feel that quite a bit more could be done on Stardock's end to promote and or encourage new designers. On the otherhand, the general bad behavior and lousy attitude of a large quantity of end users is not encouraging either.
Hell, I have no effing clue as to the solution/cause. I'm just throwing out ideas.
What I do know is that for me, the fun of it left a long time ago after a round of ill behaved asshole remarks about one of my skins. I pretty much threw in the towel at that point.
Reply #65 Top
What I do know is that for me, the fun of it left a long time ago after a round of ill behaved asshole remarks about one of my skins. I pretty much threw in the towel at that point.
End of quote


I don't let the comments of people bother me regardless of what it is.  The problem is with skin comments is many people don't even look at the skin, they see it's a WB skin and immediately trash it no matter how "good" it is.  That is a side effect of skinning becoming "mainstream" and more popular.  Unfortunately, that really won't go away as you will always have people who feel everything should be "free". 

I for one would like to see you skin again (don't take that out of context!)

As far as encouraging new skinners, that is another tough one, but not impossible.  SkinStudio 6 has made it much easier to create skins, and we have a great set of tutorials upcoming that will show people almost step by step how to make a skin.  The WinCustomize Wiki is a great source of info and it's slowly being built up.

We can show someone "how" to make a WindowBlinds skin for instance, but the skinner has to have the initiative and skills to make a showcase skin. 

Just to speak about WindowBlinds for a moment.  One thing that always impressed me was the continuation of the $20 price point, a good upgrade policy, and the "open ear" from Stardock when it comes to things people want to see.  It's hard to find a $20 application that does that.  So now that the community is always evolving, where is the next step?

Does WindowBlinds stay the "same"?
Do we include more premium skins and increase the price?

A lot of questions can be asked, but how to proceed from here on is a difficult one to answer.


Reply #66 Top
So now that the community is always evolving, where is the next step?
End of quote


From a skinners point of view it would be to tighten up the program to where we weren't fighting to use it.

I LOVE WB... but its a definate love\hate relationship. Solidify it, you will get better skins. Free and Pay and most assuredly.. less complaining.
Reply #67 Top
"The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users)."


To have the pricing of the product based on literally a handful of dedicated skinners seems absurd on the face of it. Price the product in accordance with the "user" market of today and be done with it. Give promotional copies to you ever you wish.
Reply #68 Top
Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't MyColors the better option for users that just want to apply themes? Not the typical skinner.

As for the buck a download concept. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone actually making money at that price point...maybe (doubtful) if there where millions of actual downloads monthly.

Not sure where Stardock is taking MyColors or if it is exclusive to Stardock design but, an idea might be a MyColors specific gallery where all the skins are commercial and Master Skinners and individuals/businesses that satisfy some type of criteria can submit their skins. Just a thought.
Reply #69 Top
Price the product in accordance with the "user" market of today and be done with it.
End of quote


I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
Reply #70 Top
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
End of quote
But maybe the masses are finally ready for a mass-produced Windowblinds.  :)   Marketing can drive volume sales and a small price boost (because somtimes being priced too low makes your app seem cheap) might be the right commercial thing to do.

I can see it now . . "From the publisher of Sins of a Solar Empire and the developers of Galactic Civilization, a new way to make your PC your own: Windowblinds!"   :CONGRAT:

I've often wondered how most people got either to WindowBlinds or WC?  Is it through the "I want a new wallpaper for my PC?" or something else.  I got hooked back with OS/2 fo rthe desktop apps.  But it seems that Stardock has been niche almost by design.  When is the right time to go after the greater market and make them skinners (or at least skin users)?
Reply #71 Top
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
End of quote


I really wouldn't know Craig as there aren't really any comps out there for comparison. Unless I am mis-reading the quote I used from Brad's statement, he seems to think is should be priced at a 100% increase($40) from the current pricing of $20. Whether this was at the current distribution method or reflective of packaging and store distribution I do not know. Perhaps he will enlighten us.
Reply #72 Top

Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
End of quote

Sleep.

Reply #73 Top

I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
End of quote

WindowBlinds was at retail. But it wasn't worth the effort versus the sales (we sell a lot more copies digitally).

Also, very very few software programs these days are $20.  The only reason WindowBlinds has been able to say at $20 is thanks to the skinners and people who help beta test it. 

Skinners effectively subsidized WindowBlinds so that others could get it cheaper. And skinners often get deplorable treatment from some of the new generation of "entitled consumers".

Reply #74 Top
Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.

Sleep.
End of quote
At least I can assume you read my whole comment.  That's more than Bill Gates has ever done.   :CONGRAT: 
Reply #75 Top
Feedback on products: I have seen this go several ways, I have posted numerous posts on DX problems, bug, feature requests, some of them were fixed in days (hell in hours on 1) and other just get ignored. And at some point you get tired of bringing up the same problems over and over, so you stop giving feedback. I'm sure that has happened to all of us. I know this happened to me with CursorFX, it keep messing up over and over, I posted on this, gave people the feedback, and the only response i got (from sd and wd people) was to un-install it all, and re-install it. When i did that and it still didnt fix things, and posted on it still doing the same thing (moving the cursor UNDER the menus) I get told that i need to uninstall again. So we give up. If you want the feedback, have a dedicated place for it. I think thats the main issue. There are too many places here to post on DX for example. Multiple places to post, if we had 1 forum location for each product called BUGs and Feature Requests 1 for each product. That would be somewhere that SD personell need to monitor it not just WC Admins. This could help a lot. Instead of having dozens (or hundreds) of posts on the same issues all over the place.
End of quote


Although this has been mentioned a few times in this thread and the other related thread, as well as in the past, I get the feeling it will be largely ignored ... again.