Frogboy Frogboy

Is skinning a community or a market?

Is skinning a community or a market?

Frogblog: February 2008

https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=19&aid=176998
frogboy-iconWhen skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups.  The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general.  In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".

Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less.  In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.

As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved.  Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations.  The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things).  Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs.  Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems.  It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it. 

The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works.  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20.  Those products are $50 to $70.   The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).

Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market.  Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products. 

I've written an article that goes into more detail.  Click the link below to check it out. 

78,897 views 249 replies
Reply #26 Top
There's plenty of good old school content
Reply #27 Top
Some very good points.

Just to be clear Im quite happy with OD. The strides that have been made since 3x are pretty amazing in both stability and performance.

Please bear in mind this isnt "bitching" it's a conversation that can hopefully benefit all involved in the long run, or not :) The basis of the conversation leads one to sound "whiney".

One key point is this isnt "required" software and as such I really dont need to go elsewhere. I've looked at plain Windows since EZDOSIT
Reply #28 Top
Then add an additional OD Ultimate Plus (at a higher price point) which features beta releases.
End of quote


Or... Plus costs no more than Ulitmate, but is only available to people willing and able to beta test.

Reply #29 Top
Well I must say money has now become the motivator for the developers and the skinners alike. This little bit of news could easily be seen as warning that the cost of Object Desktop and the individual software components are about to have a price increase. It’s not hard to see Star dock charging 50 dollars for Windowblinds, DesktopX, Icon packager, etc. etc and 100 to 200 dollars for the Object Desktop Suite.

I have to say that the community is changing. Since customizing the GUI has become more main-stream, not only the price will change but the community as well. Since the main goal of “wondering how much everyone will like this” to “wonder how much money I can make from this” will cause the attitudes of all the end-users to change with it. Maybe this is where this type of community is headed. Maybe all the communities in the tech-world make this transition and maybe the customizing community is finally making its way to join the rest.

I have to say Wincustomize has sped this along with the implementation of the master Skinner project. Before the MSP (master skinner project) came along Wincustomize was a portal for all skinners to share their art. And quite possible allow a skinner to offer services by advertising their talents. And if a skinner was so inclined he/she could say “visit my web page for some more of my work”, but now that is no longer necessary. Because WC has become a selling point for their products, which I think pulls away from the true nature of WC and that is for people to share their stuff. Some artist have only offered their good stuff (the worth using stuff) for a price. Don’t get me wrong I have supported a few artists for their work. But I think that it shows that we are at a point where the community has made it to a point and changed the community forever. Money is now the motivator to offer good software and great skins. I think you will be lucky to find a great skin being offered by the so called Masters for the sake of sharing.

It seems to be the way of the world these days.
So many people who want everything handed to them without doing anything for it
End of quote


True and not true, I'm not asking for free, but this community has always been about sharing, and that is slowing changing. And with that change comes the change of attitude with the users and artist and the devs. With the need to exchange money for all this will change this community to being more inpersonal

Since we are a community, and with some very intelligent folks I might add, I see nothing wrong with us being the "guinea pigs". I dare say that other folks feel the same. The ones that don't, well they don't have to use the beta version.
End of quote


I agree, I like being the guinea pig, it made me feel more like a part of the community. A great satisfaction comes from discovering bugs and then someone fixing them.

I don't really think that this is a fair assessment of the state of things here at Wincustomize. Yes, it's true that the Master program exists and encourages skinners with a recognized superior level of ability (gained through exercising a certain degree of talent as well as putting in many hours of work) to sell their skins at modest prices. However, most, if not all, Master Skinners regularly contribute plenty of high-quality, free skins. In addition, there's a lot of content here in the galleries that represents excellent work done by people who have not yet achieved Master rank that is also freely available to all.
End of quote


True, but what gets me is that some artist only offer the great stuff for cash and the rest is stuff you would be lucky to find a fit. Again I support it but, it seems now money has become the reason to make great skins not because they want others to say "wow” There is an artist that seems to make only Master skins. Since the master program began what percent of your skins to you offer for free compared to price.


As far as paying for what Stardock charges for their products, I have no problem paying these fees. Improvements will come, though I have to agree with some of the argument, that some of the bugs do get resolved rather slowly. I personally don't have issue with bugs, but read the forums and you see some old bugs that haven’t been dealt the needed hand and should have. But this part of software development. And do not forget that development is a permanent fixture.


Community content isn’t the be all end all.



Community Content is what started and built desktop customization to what it is today
End of quote


If it wasn't for Community Content, you wouldn't be here.

To put this into a nutshell, the fact is that the community is changing and i have to say not for the best. The community will eventually fade out because the customization of desktop will become main-stream. This is how it goes.
Reply #30 Top
The same community that demands bug free software and is not willing to provide needed input to the developers also demands a lot from the skinners too. Most of the people visiting wincustomize grab what they want and go. When compared to the number of downloads, the quantity of comments is very small, sometimes none at all, and often they are overly critical and harsh. Where is the incentive for the skinners to create content and share it? They may have just devoted several months of their life to create a Windowblinds skin just to have someone leave a comment that it sucks and give them a one star rating. There needs to be some sort of perks for contributing members regardless of how long they have been here or how talented they are. The master program is a great thing but it takes a long time to achieve. And the truth is that some will never become masters no matter how long they stick with it. If you cannot encourage new people to start skinning, and you can’t keep the ones who try it from leaving, where will the future masters come from?

This of course should actually apply to all types of contributors. Whether they submit content, screenshots, or help out in the forums and IRC. All contributions have value and are needed for the community to thrive.

As far as the betas go, I think the problem lies partly in how they are distributed. It’s too easy for users to check “Show pre-release versions” and forget about it. Then they download the betas as if they were updates or new releases, expecting them to work as such. It might work better if you had to sign up for beta testing or make a request to be a beta tester. You will no doubt have fewer testers but the ones who get involved will more than likely provide better feedback. You could also put together some sort of crash report that could be sent in for analysis
Reply #31 Top
I could list a dozen or so issues right off the bat without even thinking, some have been posted.. some have been posted numerous times.. and some.. I'm not even going to bother with because the last ones I did.. were never remedied. I've tried giving detailed feedback.. to limited avail. I'm not the only one.

I understand that as time passes some are of the opinion that software needs to be given new and exciting functions to keep attracting new and repeat buyers.. I for one don't subscribe to that. My feelings would be to stop trying to add to a program that has problems going back years and tend to these issues. Then and only then would I add new features. I believe that people are far more likely to pay and repeat buy software that at it's core is completely functional.

I would be more than happy to fully test on an ongoing basis if the work i put into it.. paid off.

I wish Stardock the best as the future draws closer and I hope and pray that it all shakes out in a positive manner.





Reply #32 Top
Makes me miss the days of Style XP which could syphon some of those people off.
End of quote


All I am going to do is ;) .

People who complain about having to pay for stuff really need to stop complaining. If they want something for free, they can spend hours, days, weeks, even months and make their own stuff and then I bet they will appreciate what programmers and skinners do.
Reply #33 Top
Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident.
End of quote


Umm, Frogboy ... some of your support guys may not be telling you everything ;)

But, from the looks of it, Alberto (and team) is working on these known issues.

Alberto Stardock
February 11, 2008 11:37:59
Reply #12

- Problematic with Tablet PC (known issue) //No fixed
End of quote




Not tested yet.



- Cursor not skinned all the times (Vista manifest, dropdown menus) //No fixed
End of quote




Fixed internally.



- I sometimes get lag, sometimes very smooth //??
End of quote




Much improved internally.. I dare to call it "fixed".



- Slow 'CursorFX configuration panel' startup with a lot of themes installed //No fixed
End of quote




We are working on it. We can have 400+ animated previews.. it'll be both slow and take too much memory. We'll either have a paged system (recent, 1-20, 21-40, etc), or a threaded system that will load/unload depending on the visible themes.
It should be done by next week.

We are working to solve all inconveniences as soon as possible.
End of quote
Reply #34 Top
To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
End of quote

Okay, let's be honest here. That is not a great comparison. There are plenty of great free options for file compression, personally I use IZARC.

I wish you luck finding comparable software when you go elsewhere
End of quote


I agree that when you do a value comparison, WB is tough to beat. That said, when many of us first bought the software you could take it for granted that the skins were all(99%) free. Now for the same amount of money we paid in the past we get less and less skins. Not trying to knock anybody just stating how I feel about it. Now it is a bit confusing on what we get for our money, especially with the open support of "for sale skins".

If Stardock started charging 50 bucks for WindowBlinds as long as it came with a great skinpack, AND put it on store shelves I would buy it like any other software. I would not buy OD at 200-300 bucks however, as at this price it would be hard to justify for myself considering I only really use WB.

With uncertainty about where the skinning community is going, the old/current model is a tough sell for me though, even at the current price.
In my opinion as long as Stardock makes it clear what the customers get for their money, it makes it a lot easier for customers to make a decision one way or the other. Not only that but I think it makes it easier for Stardock to measure the success of what they decide to do, and make changes as needed.

Really they should just get Microsoft to dump Plus(it's all crap anyway) and replace it with a nice selection of utilities from OD. With that kind of penetration they should still be able to keep the price reasonable.











Reply #35 Top
Ahhhmen V. :) 

A couple of points for those still following...

There seems to be a misconception of betas around here...Stardock has 2 kinds.Pre-full release betas for community testing(true betas)...and bugfix betas(the more numerous beta)to sort out issues.

To the Masterskin program dissenters...Heres some numbers for you...In 2007 I produced over 80 skins(not just windowblinds,but still skins...that took time and effort).Only 2 of them for sale...out of over 80. ;) 

I contributed for years before 2007,but apparently nothing I did beore my first skin for sale has any merit. :SNIFF!: (or any of the free skins afterwards) :SNIFF!: 

So for 5 years of skinning I have pulled in a grand total of just over 1000$Not enough to cover the effort of creating a single WB.So your whining falls on deaf ears here. ;) 

Slider was released with a demo...it got 1 comment I think. :SURPRISED:  :LOL: 

My personal best skin,my favourite...was free. ;) 
Reply #36 Top

 :) 

Why not take the Object Desktop split a stage further. Have OD and OD Ultimate, but restrict them to full releases of software only. Then add an additional OD Ultimate Plus (at a higher price point) which features beta releases. That way beta releses only get to the people who will appreciate them and who might be more willing to offer feedback.
End of quote

Thats an idea I like :) 

Reply #37 Top
Charge people extra for betas?Bugfixes too?...sorry,thats not gonna work...seems to be the exact opposite of what Brads point is. :NOTSURE: 
Reply #38 Top

Jeffrey,

Great comment and you illustrate the point perfectly:

You are willing to pay more for stuff.

But that is what the change is.  Historically, the unspoken deal was that we made the software, users would work with us actively to get problems fixed, and skinners would make content.

But now, we still make the software. But only a tiny number of users help us get problems fixed (and I'll try not to be too impatient with people who say "But I posted something and my problem wasn't resolved so I stopped posting). The responsibility for getting probems resolved has been totally shifted onto us -- which is normal in other markets but was not the tradition in the skinning community. It was a partnership, not a producer/consumer relationship. And lastly only a handful of people make skins requiring us to provide even a lot of that content.

On the games side of things, we already have that kind of setup. The serious QA is done by us and we basically hand users a finished product ready to go.  BUT they also pay $40 to $50 for those products, not $20.

I can easily see a day where WindowBlinds 7 is a $39.95 product but it comes with a dozen high quality skins plus a year subscription to Stardock Design where they get new skins as they're made for free. And only the really popular programs continue being developed with Object Desktop being $69.95 where it comes with just a few key components but lots of content.

I'm not saying that's what will happen. But looking at how I see things going from here to 2010 that's the direction I see things taking.  So there wouldn't be updates to ObjectBar or RightClick or the other programs that just aren't as popular as the core parts. Maybe freeware developers would pick it up or some competitor might come and pick it up.

But the days of $20 programs where the developer is wholly responsible for doing the QA AND the content are pretty much at an end one way or the other.

Object Desktop 2008 will be interesting because it's going to focus on providing a lot of content for customers but have a LOT fewer programs to support.

 

Reply #39 Top
Now for the same amount of money we paid in the past we get less and less skins.
End of quote


Yes but the cost of development has gone up. (People like a cost of living raise occasionally), and the price of the software hasn't.. In reality most other companies push the rising costs of business on to the customer. This has not been the case with SD.
We have more than gotten our moneys worth, in the fact of while content has risen (tho at a slower pace lately) and development is still ongoing, the prices have not been raised .. EVER. We have been very lucky up to this point on that fact alone..

IMO SD may have to raise prices to bring on paid skinners to fill the gaps left by the declining #'s of active skinners and contributions.


Not to mention all the griping threads with no real explanations of whats not working, tends to be a pain and offers support no real way of helping.

Reply #40 Top
That sounds great to me...I think it would have an affect on the forums too...they would refocus on skinning and community and less on helping people just getting stuff to work. :) 

dang HG,we was thinking z same thing...hahah. :LOL: 
Reply #41 Top
and I'll try not to be too impatient with people who say "But I posted something and my problem wasn't resolved so I stopped posting
End of quote


Why would that make you impatient? Wasn't part of this about not enough good feedback? When you give feedback..ask for fixes and nothing is done.. what's the motivation to keep reporting? I doub't many people would like to see WB the best it can be more than I.. seriously. Not sure what you meant by that.
Reply #42 Top
Yes,we whine because we care.We just stopped expecting any results. ;) 
Reply #43 Top
Brad,

I think you're spot on with the content direction and master skinners along with MyColors are great examples of the direction things are heading.

As for the content complaints they seem to be atypical of many other markets such as music, books, etc. As the skinning market gets bigger obviously the number of active, quality skinners is going to decline.

People need to step back and think for a second how much a graphics designer is actually worth. And that's only one aspect of the process.

My participation in beta testing for DesktopX has been limited due to my being on XP and any issue I have had is system specific.

Also, my eyes were opened by the amount of time spent dealing with people on my iReflector gadget. These same issue(s) which were documented in the readme file that everyone decides not to read. At deviantart I got around 50 notes that it "doesn't work" and the answer was in the description.

So, I have to pat everyone at Stardock on the back. Mind if I ask "does customer service and tech support have padded cubicles? ;)
Reply #44 Top
Frogboy, I do not envy the decisions you have to make.

I can easily see a day where WindowBlinds 7 is a $39.95 product but it comes with a dozen high quality skins plus a year subscription to Stardock Design where they get new skins as they're made for free.
End of quote

That would be dirt cheap even without the subscription.
It would be nice to see it on the shelves next to Windows though, as customization becomes more main stream you start opening up to more and more casual users. The ultimate casual user picks it up when purchasing the OS/PC.

Object Desktop 2008 will be interesting because it's going to focus on providing a lot of content for customers but have a LOT fewer programs to support.
End of quote

I think that makes a lot of sense as a business decision, but it is sure to piss a lot of people off.(like I said I don't envy you)


Yes but the cost of development has gone up.
End of quote

And the market has grown, which means you make it up on quantity.
Regardless though, the cost of development doesn't mean a thing to the customer. Do you think people really care about how much Windows cost to develop? It comes down to how much will the customer pay for a specific feature/functionality.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem per se with the cost of the product increasing. However when you move the price up, I think people start to want clarity as to what there money is buying exactly. At least I do.


Not to mention all the griping threads with no real explanations of whats not working, tends to be a pain and offers support no real way of helping.
End of quote


This is a common everyday support occurrence. It sucks, it is probably one of the reasons why support jobs turn over more than any other IT job, but there is no easy solution. Every QA person knows you will never get 100% of all the bugs, while every customer will demand that you do. Meanwhile when people are calling in or posting a problem many times they are pissed off worsening the situation. Good support don't just answer questions, they have to read the customers mood and do their best to resolve that before they can even really start to dig into an issue. QA and support are tough jobs, and if Stardock decides to take the product more mainstream, then this issue will be magnified since full support will be expected, not to mention there will be many more issues posted. But the more mainstream they become the more revenue they can expect.

So for 5 years of skinning I have pulled in a grand total of just over 1000$Not enough to cover the effort of creating a single WB.So your whining falls on deaf ears here.
End of quote


It is one of my pet peeves when people say that just because someone disagrees with you they are "whining", using the same mentality, everybody is just whining depending on your point of view. That is why my posts here are few and far between. People don't seem interested in a different point of view.






Reply #45 Top
Just a couple thoughts here.

I'm fairly new to the community so I'm sure there are plenty of problems and changes from the past of this community that I am unaware of. From what I've seen in the time I've been browsing through Wincustomize though I think this is the best developer and user integrated relationship I've seen with any product. Unfortunately though no matter what is done from either side of the relationship there will always be problems. Human nature is unavoidable.

As for the beta tester process I would also disagree that charging people extra to be beta testers would be a good idea (referring to a comment made not the original article). At the same time I'm sure people would appreciate a discount on products for being testers but unfortunately that would lead to everyone saying they are willing to be beta testers just to get the discount and then giving the same uninformed comments about their problems.

I would think that with the new Impulse that is on the way maybe it would be a good idea to have the normal section for updates that you have in Stardock Central but have it provide only full release updates. In addition to this add a seperate section in which people can sign up and download beta versions to test. In this section you could include a detailed description of what is expected of beta testers as far as content of reported problems (i.e. "This thing isnt working it's crap" wouldnt be useful information and the people submitting these types of "reports" would lose the ability to access the beta versions.

In addition to this I believe a helpful thing would be to change the Forum front page layout a bit. No matter what you will always get people that just want to complain, or people with valid remarks that just wont pay attention to the proper place for their comments. I think if the front page was changed so that when you first clicked the forum button you then had the options of "Beta Forums", "Stardock Support Forums", "All Other Forums"(which would lead to a page similar to what the front page is now) then you would at least have a better chance of these problems being reported in the correct place rather than spread out among the forums.

Of course making sure these problems are fixed in a timely manner or at least acknowledged and updates given on the progress of fixing them would also be an important factor. From what i see (in this thread) I would think that the people who have mentioned the problems they posted about not being fixed are not people that are complaining just to cause problems but people who are pointing this out in hopes of the problems being fixed because they put alot of time into the skins they create and want to see them perform to the best of their ability. Which of course is good not just for them but for the fact that it means more great skins out there working properly to encourage people to purchase Stardocks products.


As for people complaining about the price of Stardocks products or about paying for Master Skins, I really dont see any merit to the complaints. Stardocks products are very moderately priced for what you get out of them and you make the choice to buy them to begin with. Be sure to consider the fact that if you were to buy ObjectDesktop now and never renew your subscription that it will still work for life and there are so many skins already out there to choose from that you could change your computer theme a couple times a month for years to come. The Master Skins are made by people who take alot of time and make sure they are producing a great product. And as for the prices of the skins how can anyone complain? You pay a small fee for the skin, about the same as youd pay for a single meal for one at a drive thru, and you have it for life not just ten minutes. Also even if you do not want to pay for the Master Skins there are so many great free skins out there by these same people and others that you have alot of stuff to choose from.

As far as rating systems and comments on skins.
There will always be people who do this just to be able to make something and will continue to do it regardless of the ratings they get and there will also always be people who take the ratings to heart. In my personal opinion the ratings arent a big deal. If you really want to judge peoples opinion of your skin then read the comments that are left. I agree it would be nice if more people left comments when they do like your work because it will encourage more people to keep trying to do a better job. Another way to look at it is by the number of downloads you get. As far as the negative comments left on skins the only way you'll ever be able to put a complete end to that is to get rid of the comment section altogether as there will always be people out there who just have to be malicious. By negative I dont mean someone telling you they dont really like the end product and telling you why, I mean people just leaving completely unnecessary comments. I think doing away with comments altogether would create a slow demise of people creating things because then they would never get any positive feedback or appreciation of their work.
Reply #46 Top
Its just like when you download "FREE" software then upon installation find that it's a 30 day trial.
End of quote


I went to check at download.com it says "WindowBlinds - License:Free to try; $19.95 to buy". Can you point us to where it is free?

Let freeware developers make cursor changing programs or object bar like programs and what not.
End of quote


Unless you make a ton of money and become "evil", they are not interested.

And thank you for the Masterskin program...it bought me my new monitor and graphics card.yay!
End of quote


I am pretty sure someone out there thinks that you bought a private island instead.

not spend my valuable time learning new apps
End of quote


How is it that you value your time but not others?

Who are you to determine what is a value for me or anyone else?
End of quote


If it is not value, I usually don't go there. Move On.

I feel my new car should come with tires and wheels. If they are not included I go elsewhere. I purchased OD and expected my choice of skins and not have to buy them.
End of quote


When you buy a car, you get a standard set of tires. If you want fancy, you pay more, a lot more. And when they are worn, you purchase them, the car company does not replace them free.

I agree that there is no equivalent of premium cars here where you can add and modify stuff and pay more to get something to your liking. May be StarDock can come up with something like that.

Mitch, just in case you have not seen this option, when you click on the "small screenie" it opens in a new window as a full-screen sized image. This is a much better way to determine if this is a skin you would like to see on your machine every day.
End of quote


There could be better option for Master Skins, something like a flash/silevrlight screen where elements of the skin in action is shown to the user, may be even some interactive options.

The odd $5 skin amongst thousands of free skins is nothing to complain about!

Hell, you pay more than that to go see a movie once!
End of quote


Or for a starbucks coffee that you just...

this argument is somewhat like saying if you don't like the car you are driving create your own.
End of quote


I think we can do the same thing here when someone doesn't like their car. They mod it, aftermarket. It's not free though. If you buy from the car manufacturer, you pay a lot more. We miss that option here.

I agree that when you do a value comparison, WB is tough to beat. That said, when many of us first bought the software you could take it for granted that the skins were all(99%) free. Now for the same amount of money we paid in the past we get less and less skins. Not trying to knock anybody just stating how I feel about it. Now it is a bit confusing on what we get for our money, especially with the open support of "for sale skins".
End of quote


This is another example of Wincustomize content is StarDock content confusion. Is it StarDock or is it community?

Really they should just get Microsoft to dump Plus(it's all crap anyway) and replace it with a nice selection of utilities from OD. With that kind of penetration they should still be able to keep the price reasonable.
End of quote


People pay for Plus and get almost nothing and there is not much complaint or there is no point in complaining.

Reply #47 Top

I think we can do the same thing here when someone doesn't like their car. They mod it, aftermarket. It's not free though. If you buy from the car manufacturer, you pay a lot more. We miss that option here.
End of quote


I really don't think most people are talking about that level of customization, when you talk about casual users I think most people would just like a different color to choose from, maybe with some racing stripes. Not that the car comparison, or any other is a very good comparison when we are talking about software.

his is another example of Wincustomize content is StarDock content confusion. Is it StarDock or is it community?
End of quote


Well confusion here is part of the issue, however at the end of the day it comes down to value perceived by the customer, regardless of who owns the content. As master skinners and Stardock alike sell their products to the customer, it really doesn't matter what they perceive as value but what the people who buy their products perceive as value. IMHO, understanding that simple fact is key to running any business. If you can't cover costs with what the customer feels is a good value proposition, then the business won't last very long.
...Unless of course, you are Microsoft.

People pay for Plus and get almost nothing and there is not much complaint or there is no point in complaining.
End of quote


Once you have as much of a grip on the market as Microsoft does, you can get away with A LOT. I wonder how much Plus actually sold, not that it matters to Microsoft that much. There may be few complaints because not many people bought it, or perhaps because complaining to Microsoft is not very... productive. Unless it is some kind of serious security flaw, you are not likely to see a fix from Microsoft anytime soon and people kind of give up before getting started. But there are not many companies who can play by Microsoft's rules and survive. Still if Stardock could get Microsoft to let them sell using the Plus brand, it would make the brand actually worth something again. I imagine it work out pretty good for Stardock too.


Totally off topic, who at Stardock is the Raymond E. Feist fan, or is just coincidence?



Reply #48 Top
And thank you for the Masterskin program...it bought me my new monitor and graphics card.yay!


I am pretty sure someone out there thinks that you bought a private island instead.


not spend my valuable time learning new apps


How is it that you value your time but not others?
End of quote


Me so poor I cant afford a car...I have to ride a freakin' bycycle to the grocery store.(I'm 48 and partially disabled...I look like an idiot) ;p So when I hear the entitlement crowd WHINING about the Masterskins program,I wanna beat their WHINY little butts. ;) 

That second point can make it no plainer...how absolutely perfect a question that was to pose.

Thank you James. :) 

Reply #49 Top
Me so poor I cant afford a car...I have to ride a freakin' bycycle to the grocery store.(I'm 48 and partially disabled...I look like an idiot) So when I hear the entitlement crowd WHINING about the Masterskins program,I wanna beat their WHINY little butts.
End of quote


Here we go again with the whining. Not sure if those ALL CAPS were pointed at my comment about the word "WHINE" being one of my pet peeves, but I'll bite.

The only here that sound like they are whining is you, and whether or not you can make a successful go of your career choice is of no particular concern to anybody but yourself. Maybe you could do better if you stopped calling your potential customers a bunch of whiners, just a thought though. Maybe if people could listen to those they disagree with, they could find common ground and a mutually beneficial middle ground could be reached. But when you start calling potential customers names, well I wouldn't expect business to take off.



Reply #50 Top
I dont consider the entitlement crowd potential customers.Their minds are pretty much made up on the subject and not likely to change. ;)