Frogboy Frogboy

The Future of WinCustomize.com...

The Future of WinCustomize.com...

Changes are coming...

Some changes are coming to WinCustomize.com.  Big changes.  But before we get to that, for those of you who haven't been here from the start, let me give you a brief history of WinCustomize.com...

...In the beginning the dot-com collapse of 2000 has knocked out many of the sites in our "skinning" community.  Many of us feared that it would be the end of our community. So in early 2001, Stardock quickly put together WinCustomize.com.  The idea at the time was that Stardock would provide the servers and bandwidth and community volunteers would take care of everything else.  That didn't work out so well and within the first month of the site's development, T-Man, a Stardock developer, had been put in charge of the site's development (which he continues to this day) and I came on as the primary administrator.  So that when the site was launched in March 2001, Stardock was taking care of the bandwidth, the servers, site coding, and overall site direction.  However, community volunteers did come to the rescue in the form of people like Jafo (and many others over time) who essentially take care of WinCustomize on a day to day basis.

But over time, the "skin" community has changed.  Despite skinning becoming increasingly popular, no major skin sites have been launched since 2001 (other customization-oriented sites have launched but no major gallery sites).  Moreover, since 2001, some of the existing skin sites have essentially gone on auto-pilot.  The skinning community, at its prime, was something to behold.  But it is not what it once was in my opinion. It is fractured and dispersed.

Meanwhile, traffic at WinCustomize.com has continued to grow and grow:

   
Figure 1: Traffic per month

At the same time, the # of subscriptions per month has declined and declined:


Figure 2: Subscriptions per month

So as a community of sites, we're at a cross-roads.  As someone who wants the skinning community (people who like to create and use "stuff" to alter the way their computer interfaces look & feel) to thrive, I want to do something that can help the community return to where it was.  But I'm also in the position of being in charge of Stardock.  The business case on WinCustomize has always been pretty weak.  The most profitable thing to do historically has been to close WinCustomize and just point to deviantART libraries of skins and themes for Stardock's software.  But at this point, closing WinCustomize.com would be a true last resort because a single site, deviantART, which is primarily an art site now, not a skin site, would have a virtual monopoly on skinning content (that's not to take away from Skinbase and other very good skin sites, but we're talking purely in terms of monthly traffic).

We're at a cross-roads then.  We have to get WinCustomize to a point where it can pay for itself.  I think the key to this is helping bring the skinning community back to its prime.  That means more community features, more galleries, more bandwidth, more programming, more of everything.  But to do this, it's going to cost money. Even with the people who volunteer, we still have to code the site, pay the bandwidth and the size of the site means that we need more people who's jobs are dedicated to the site.

So we've brought on two new people: Mike Bryant who many of you know.  He'll be creating some exclusive suites this year for WinCustomize subscribers.  We also have brought on WishX to help organize and keep the sites running, to interface more directly with the community volunteers.  And we hope to hire more ASP.net and SQL database developers to add in new features for people.  But to do this it's going to cost money. A lot of money.  Stardock writes most of the cost of WinCustomize off as "marketing".  But even today, WinCustomize costs many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to run.  These changes are going to add dramatically to that cost. 

So later today, we're going to launch a subscription drive.  Our hope is to get 2,000 new (or renewed) subscribers between now and October 31st.  We'll be keeping you all informed of our progress. With 22 million visitors (over 3 million of whom are unique), getting 2,000 people to subscribe or renew shouldn't be a major problem we hope.  But we'll see.  We'll have more details on the subscription drive and what subscribers will be getting for sure and what they'll get IF we make the 2,000 goal.

51,062 views 114 replies
Reply #76 Top
wincustomize is like a person i can talk to for help. almost like a friend in school.


1000% (I mean A thousand Percent) agreed ... 20Bucks seem far mere before the Respect, love, and attention I got @ WC.

As I have already sponsored a WC Contest ... and curently supporting another ... I am pretty much out of money ... The only thing which I can do now is to convince people for subscribing WC ...
Reply #77 Top
I think requiring people to have accounts to download anything but the very newest stuff (i.e. stuff from the past 3 days) would help.


That seems strange since most downloads are in the first three days. I am sure you guys have your reasons but it escapes me. Not meant as critisism, just curious.

A decent windowblinds skin will get about 10000+ downloads the first week. That is alot of people getting something for nothing. Maybe you can give away 10 mb's or something for anyone that purchases Stardock products. This might thwart some of the people running pirated versions of the software.

Subscriber only galleries with small libraries with selected content for the non subscribers sounds like a good way to go.

$50,000 per year income from subscribers tells me there are between 2000 and 4000 subscribers (depends if it there first year or not). That number seems kind of pathetic. I am surprised Stardock has been so patient with WC. I thought Stardock was getting a much bigger payback from WC but wow, that is not what I expected.
Reply #78 Top
I just took a look at my WC subscription and to request the seriel number..it auto generated an email reply . The problem is, thats not my WC subscription serial number..its the last serial number for lasts months WC subscription contests. I Paid for 2 subscription at one time and I recieved a receipt for the correct amount for 2 but it listed only 1 serial number. We were supposed to send that to T Man and he sent an email saying he had transferred the numbers to the winners. Now , I cant renew mine because it will mess up someone elses subscription. Could you pass that info on to T man to correct this please?
Reply #79 Top
I wonder how many of those site visitors are like me. I have been using windowblinds since it's creation. I stop by generaly only every 3-4 months to check for windowblinds updates and dounload 3 to 4 new skins. not interested in paying a subscription. Could it be that wincustomize had outgrown itself and has changed focus because of growth, geared toward generating revenue, instead of being simply what was intended, a great place to get the Stardock updates and skins. Keep it simple,,,,,keeps the costs down.
Reply #80 Top
OK, how about this: People using shareware have a pack of the best dozen skins they can download for each product, to try out the product before they buy - no access to any other downloads. People who have bought a product have unlimited downloads of skins rated 4 stars and above. WC subscribers have access to everything.

I think Fuzzy's got a good idea for the most part. The 550mb limit is waayyy to high. It took me a year to reach that much in downloads (as a subscriber) I think the visitor who has has purchased a product but not subscribed should have LIMITED OR NO ACCESS to downloads ABOVE FOUR STARS. Peolpe don't mind paying extra if their getting the best, it's not as "enticing" when they need to pay extra to get the so-so.
I'm not a coder or a great skinner but if I can give some of my TIME to help make things work/run better just let me know.
Reply #81 Top
I think that each Stardock product should have 2 or 3 skins, widgets, or whatever
incuded in the package.
Close WC to freeloaders. Everyone must buy a subscription to download content.... look but don't touch.
Maybe drop the cost of a subscription to $9.99 per year ... I don't know, you'd
have to run the numbers to see where you think the "sweet spot" would be to
acheive the revenue you need.
Reply #82 Top
My subscription to WC is worth every penney! This site is the best. I just have one question -- how do you know when your subscription is ready to expire? Do you send an email? I know that I became a member BEFORE a subscriber and I have no idea when it is time for renewal.
Reply #83 Top
There seems to be quite a few great ideas here.."Members area"..I personally like that one..
A few others as well..

I do agree with Brad about the "Site Issues" I havent had any trouble for months, this site works like a charm everytime I log in (( Of course Bichur would say thats because Im Special, LoL)) and I would just like to say thanks!

Good luck with the subscription drive and I will support WC any way that I can as well. It is an *Awesome Site!
Reply #84 Top
I agree with brewman.
Reply #85 Top
One suggestion would be to only make the subscription yearly from now on. Its quite generous being at two years.


Bad idea. The problem is not that subscribers are not paying enough, but that there aren't enough subscribers. What you're proposing is making the people already doing their part, do even more, while at the same time discouraging new subscribers and/or resubscribers. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what Stardock should be trying to do.
Reply #86 Top
That seems strange since most downloads are in the first three days. I am sure you guys have your reasons but it escapes me. Not meant as critisism, just curious.


That also strikes me as odd that they'd restrict old files but not new ones. Seems to me they'd be better off allowing regular users to see new files, but not be able to download them for several days, perhaps even a week.

People always want the latest, hot off the presses thing. That's the kind of thing that can drive subcriptions. I mean look how popular the Aqua and Vista stuff was when they were new; people couldn't wait to get their hands on that stuff. They don't want to wait three days or a week.
Reply #87 Top
I just re-read the page about WinCustomize Access Classes, and at first it didn't really seem to make sense that the lowest level (with any access) could download files, but didn't even need to register. And they're restricted to downloading only the BEST rated content. Huh? So, they have to see some ads, too. Big deal. It's a great free ride.

Thinking about it, though, I believe I understand better. The system was made up by sknners, who want to have their content seen, and used. It was set up to be a community (yeah, I know Brad, you keep saying...). The perks were seen to be about participation and control, NOT downloading a bunch of content, since as skinners, you MAKE the content.

But it seems that the site has become something else and something more. It seems to be a place for consumers more than skinners (in terms of numbers). It's like a small bunch of crafts people got together to make and share their work, with the sponsorship of a tool maker, but after a while they were over-run with shoppers who only wanted to take home some free stuff.

Time to reconsider the Access Classes.

How about:

Visitor - Able to view site, download selected content (extremely limited). No uploads. Only able to participate in "Visitor" forums. Advertising included.

Registered - Same as visitors, but able to participate in all forums. Uploads. Advertising included.

SD Customer - Same as registered, but unlimited download. Advertising included.

Subscriber - Same as customer, but no ads.

Apprentice - Same as subscriber (assumes a contriution to site, not necessarily money).
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Reply #88 Top
I think four key things need to be done:

1) Merge OD/Wincustomize.com serials and put file download quotas into effect
2) Make an official paypal donation address available
3) Make the top 100 skins/themes etc. available on the WWW for bittorrenting each month with all the bug fixes in
4) Raise the cost of the Object Desktop full suite renewal to $50/year instead of $35.

Now read my reason for each of these...

I pay $35/year to keep my Stardock account up (which is bargain basement imho). Its a sweet suite of applications and I'm very happy with it (tyvm Stardock and all your skinners out there). /tips hat

However, to charge another $20 for so-called "premium access" is not a good idea. Here's why ->

The second that "premium skins" come out, they'll be leaked/pirated/ever-so-slightly-modified-and-re-released (kinda like a version of Vista in the last few days) which undermines the primary product being marketed (the premium skins).

So what should be done instead?

First, I think you guys should merge wincustomize.com and Object Desktop so that the number of downloads per Object Desktop serial number are limited on a per-day basis, and limited severely for non-paying site-goers.

Reason #1: Shared Serials

If a person started sharing their serial to friends their daily download quota would be capped and bandwidth would not be an issue.

Reason #2: Frivolous Downloads Cut Significantly

Putting quotas into effect would limit the number of frivolous downloads. If I have a cap of, say, 3-5 downloads per day (as a non-paying site-goer), there's no way I'm going to be downloading wallpapers/skins with a 3-star rating or less. Even if I'm a full-fledged paying member, if I have a cap of 30 skins/day I think that's PLENTY. If there are people who are downloading more than this I think its high time they started paying into the system.

The second thing which should be done is to set up a secure method for taking donations. I hear people saying in other threads that if there were a way to donate some money to keep you guys going, they'd fork some cash over. Let me just say that I'll do the same. Give me the official paypal address and I'll chip in. That may fix the issue right there.

The third thing you guys should do is this: every month you should create a zip file of the top 100-downloaded windowblinds skins, top 100 wallpapers, top 100 icon packages, etc. and put a couple seeds out on the web for bit-torrenting.

Reason #1: Bandwidth

Users use their own instead of your servers and your bandwidth, reducing your overall expenses.

Reason #2: Standardization

The vast majority of the skins will have all of the updates the authors plan to do and are more or less bug-free by the end of each month. Often times the community makes a skin author aware of an issue and the author goes back 3-10 days after the skin came out and fix the issues. All these fixes could go into the once-monthly torrented zip files.

The fourth thing to do is to raise the cost of OD from $35/year to $50/year. If the first three things don't take care of the problem, this would definitely be a valid option.

Reason #1 - People who use the site lots and lots should shoulder the costs involved.

Reason #2 - Many current users will want the kind of access and prestige that a full OD/Wincustomize.com membership entails (large number of daily downloads, premium skins/themes, etc.) and won't mind the $15 hike. I know I qualify as one such.
Reply #89 Top
And another thing ...

For those who say they can't afford the $20 a year fee, that's fine, but what makes you think you should get it for free (while Stardock and a relatively few subscribers pay)??
Reply #90 Top

put a couple seeds out on the web for bit-torrenting.

That's going to be problematic.

Skinners deserve/require control over their artistic copyright.  Here, on Wincustomize,com they have control as to whether they wish distribution or not....just the flick of a 'delete button'.

Decentralized content distribution via P2P and/or Bittorrent sounds all very nifty until you take into account the loss of 'control' over content distribution.

P2P currently is 'brilliant' for copyright violation, and that's about the sum of it......in this situation....

Raising an OD sbscription means you want someone who pays for one thing to essentially subsidise another.  If SD is 'happy' with a $35 renewal for the product that's fine.  However what is also NEEDED is a 'fee' for other 'product', ie skin 'access'.

It's a user-pays society.

If I buy OD...I pay for OD....I don't want to be [included] also subsidising someone who is even costing me inconvenience through traffic load...slowing my OWN access to content...

Reply #91 Top
Bittorrent sounds all very nifty until you take into account the loss of 'control' over content distribution


This is the web. There is no control once something has been put up for download. WinMX, LimeWire and KazaaLite are still alive and kicking. And where they leave off, the torrents begin.

Besides, what skinner do you know who wouldn't JUMP at the chance to have their skins in the months big zip file? And if they really minded they could easily opt out.

It's a user-pays society.


Yep, that's why I wrote
People who use the site lots and lots should shoulder the costs involved


Can you honestly say that most of the downloads here are for LiteStep? Let's be real. People are here to download skins for use with Object Desktop products, predominantly Windowblinds.

The big problem as I understand it is that Wincustomize is paying too much for bandwidth and servers and site designers and database programmers and not recuperating any of these costs.

If I'm given an option of paying $15/year more for my OD membership (including premium access here) OR being forced to pay 20 extra dollars per year to pay to download anything I'll pay the $15 and be careful not to share my serial out. If I'm forced to pay an extra 20 dollars to download anything here I bet people start sharing wincustomize premium userids/passwords out.

Its Garret Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons in effect right now and its sad to see, but as far as I can see, the cure is worse than the disease.
Reply #92 Top
Okay, I see a bit of confusion here... A lot of people are forgetting there are THREE main levels, NOT TWO.

Some are dividing it like this:
Subscribers / FreeLoaders.

They're forgetting that really it is this:
Subscribers / SD Customers / Freeloaders.

IMHO freeloaders are freeloaders whether they have an account or not. But as Brad says, they're easier to track with accounts.

I do believe, however, that the absolutely free content needs to be limited if the cost of running the site is running out of control, and the advertising value is not sufficient. Freeloaders are not contributing to the community in any way.

Since the freeloaders are not contributing - advertising/promotion is the only logical reason for allowing them to access the site. Since this value is negligible, then their access needs to be restricted, sharply. Perhaps a FilePlanet like download-queue system would help here. Allow older content to be downloaded with no delay, but any "new" content is queued for the freeloaders.

However, the main point of confusion here, I think, has to do with the middle group - SD Customers.

SD Customers have little to no incentive to upgrade to WC Subscribers. We already have - rightfully so in my opinion - unlimited downloads of content. The "premium suites", are, unfortunately, beaten by free content in many cases. The Wincustomize Application is pretty pointless.

What would really damage SD, however, is if SD Customers were relegated to second-class citizens on WinCustomize, and I get the idea in many of these posts that people are lumping non-subscribing Customers in with the freeloaders. That's what I'm afraid of - that by not buying something that's an additional cost above and beyond the products I've already purchased, my use of those products is severely limited.

A lot of the ideas to limit access to non-supporting users sound good - I, and others I think, are just nervous that paying stardock customers, who don't see a reason to become WC subscribers, will end up on the short end as well, when in reality it is those who have contributed nothing that make up the bulk of those 3 million unique visitors, and should be restricted.

WC can also serve as an anti-piracy measure, provided sufficient access is left in the hands of SD customers, while free access is restricted, by ensuring that those who pirated their WindowBlinds/etc, do not have a free community to support their pirated product.
Reply #93 Top
That seems strange since most downloads are in the first three days. I am sure you guys have your reasons but it escapes me. Not meant as critisism, just curious.

A decent windowblinds skin will get about 10000+ downloads the first week. That is alot of people getting something for nothing. Maybe you can give away 10 mb's or something for anyone that purchases Stardock products. This might thwart some of the people running pirated versions of the software.


The idea of restricting older content instead of the newer, is to allow free users to see the best of what's available - which is generally newer content. A subscriber/customer would be able to browse further back into the archive.

This angle is not about cutting bandwidth usage - it's about incentives to be a paying customer.
Reply #94 Top
Just supposing wincustomize closed, most of the contributers here would no doubt start there own webpages anyway (many do already) with links to others. It would be a big loss to the community but not the end of the world.
Reply #95 Top
Can't stand anything of all above apart that i've renewed also my Wincustomize subscription for the second time, but a few weeks to early it seems

Is it bad ? i won't win anything ?
Reply #96 Top

Can you honestly say that most of the downloads here are for LiteStep?

Where the heck did I say that?

It's one thing to mis-understand something said....quite another to fabricate some tripe to make an obscure point... [the former is actionable with a hearing-aid, the latter with a court hearing]...

The point is...why does an OD subscription have to rise instead of there simply being a service charge for something which is actually separate and mutually exclusive?

Or is all this an argument about paying $15 more vs paying $20 more?

When petrol prices 'need' to rise I certainly don't expect General Mortors to say "shit, our cars' running costs are going up...we better increase their purchase price as well".

If OD is 'deliverable' at $35 then that's that.  If and when that changes...so be it.

Wincustomize.com is deliverable at $20.....provided a fair number of people are enticed to pay. 

These two 'products' are not legitimately connected or dependent on one-another so it's reasonable to expect that one's price does not compensate for the other.

Reality NOW, however is simple...so simple that Blind Freddy can see it.  Currently the income [via OD subs, etc] to Stardock IS subsidising Wincustomize.com and therefore each and every person who is not personally 'contributing' to, or paying FOR their own usage.

Skinners...aka content providers can and do earn a 'free lunch', so that really leaves the flood of unknowns to be dragged screaming and moaning into the 20th century [21st, even] of consumerism....and 'user pays'.

The problem with charging for content is the perception of commercial profiteering, and every skinning site known to man, alive and dead [the sites, not the man] has heard THOSE grumblings.

No, this is about some mind-numbingly big pipe being sucked dry of downloads like a sequence from Metropolis while a single corporate entity frantically stuffs wads of used bills into the other end and musing "we're not engorging on the feeding frenzy so why are we showering OUR credit cards on the Maitre-d?"

You see, at the moment, your $35 OD sub is [partly] paying for  a couple of people totally unknown to you to download skins that you may never have seen made by a person you may never have known for whatever reason, [maybe to hack and host elsewhere....as one recent twit 'tried'].  That's awfully altruistic of you to 'donate' your finances in that way...but really...wouldn't it be nice if they paid their own way?

I mean...really?....

Reply #97 Top
May i suggest you implement a system such as rapidshares, whereby all non subscribers can pay a minimum charge via telephone for a two days subscription which will enable downloads at maximum server speeds (eg. UK costs £1.23p).All other content would remain free to view.

This would help pay towards the site since many would seem to be leechers.
Reply #98 Top
SD Customers have little to no incentive to upgrade to WC Subscribers. We already have - rightfully so in my opinion - unlimited downloads of content.

I don't agree. When I purchased my car, I was not rewarded with unlimited free fuel, when I bought my house, I actually had to pay extra for the furniture. Ledt's take computers for example, when I bought it there was a certain amount of free software installed. Now if I want any additional software, it's up to me to purchase or arrange to obtain it. Sony doesn't provide me a location where I can go download unlimited software for free.

The site content is NOT provided by Stardock. The site only hosts the content. In all the sites I frequent, this is the only site that allows ANYONE to post on the forums or upload content.

I think the WC subscritpion should be included on the OD puchase page as an extra cost but letting people know up front that some kind of very limited access would be the alternative to NOT purchasing. Forum access for non-members limited to Stardock Support area only. It may also be a good idea to come up with an incentive to have skinners post "exclusively" here for a certain length of time before they upload to other sites.
Reply #99 Top
ok......i printed out ads and gave them to people in J&R, bestbuy, and compUSA.

i ran out so I'm going to print more. The only reason i decided to do this was because even though I'm small, i could make a difference.

i gave to people in those stores because those stores have computer stuff and they maybe be interested in wincustomize because it also involve computers.
Reply #100 Top

ok......i printed out ads and gave them to people in J&R, bestbuy, and compUSA.

Wow, that's a pretty cool thing you did. We appreciate your efforts.

I've often wondered why we don't do a radio ad or something even in our local community and just see how many people come visit WC from those ads. It would be interesting to see how effective other forms of advertising help out WC and the community. Plus, I would love to drive in to work and hear a Stardock branded radio ad. Once I heard the local radio station do a promo for Political Machine that was like 15 seconds long. That was pretty cool.