Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,961 views 522 replies
Reply #76 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think all the changes Frogboy mentioned makes sense...

/me thinks, though, along with them perhaps T-man should make some filters for the message board allowing only one thread per change.. only one 30mb cap thread rant, only one $$$$ rant, only one what happened to my section rant..... also, lots of extra chocolate for the moderators who have to deal with all the complaints.
Reply #77 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad.......your solutions are interesting and as you say some are likely to be implemented regardless of the outcome of the subscription drive which i totally agree with and i suspect most others will as well. The one thing that would concern me is the administration costs involved for some of these changes but i guess like all good businessmen you have already built that into the equation
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #78 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Interesting point, Joetheblow.

I actually thought about it. But to tell the truth, the last time I got something besides essential food and medication was a month or two ago when I mistakenly bought Simpsons:Hit and Run. I wish I didn't, crappy game.

Anyways, I'll have $20 for Christmas, unless something falls through (Please god, no more ER visits.) then I'll use my mums credit card to get a subscription.

Someone mentioned that alot of people spent their money going to the movies, blowing gas-money, etc. I'm not at all like that. I stay in the house 24/7 due to my condition and the only thing I live for is ER on TNT/NBC and artwork and what little bit of friends I have made in various communities. I'll admit there are times I blow money, but that's actually very rare.

If I ever win my SSI case, I'll have at least $200 a month to help pay my Doctor bills and then I can afford to register these great programs like WindowBlinds, CursorXP, etc. Which I will, when I get the money, but until then, I have to grin-and-bear the freeware editions.

Just for curiosity.. Why don't Wincustomize consider posting 3D models for purchase? Users can make 3D models, than post them for download, 50% going to the author and 50% going to the site. Models could range from vehicular models that could be easily made for games to just regular 3D models. I dunno, just an idea, because I noticed there's a "graphic" section.
Reply #79 from WinCustomize Forums Top
like i said i do believe that more would be willing to help out .. but without an eye catching banner. i fear most just arent aware of the help needed..the lil subscription drive banner u have at the top right .. really looks like a second purchase button for the wincust goodie....the majority of the users prolly dont read each article or read the boards . they come for the skins and go...get their attention.. even the best product will never get sold if theres lil to no advertiseing...i look at the front page and see a nicely written update abt the fund drive ...unless u read it many would asume its prolly a christmas fund for the needy ...put up something big,red that says help or save on it.. those two key words are the basis for most in ur face advertiseing campaigns.. and usually get the results....
Reply #80 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As a skin author I would love to see some revenue from skinning,especially if it helps the site.This option for "premium skins should be implemented immediately.(I've been sick for the last few months and havnt worked,but I still skin)And not just for journeyman.Apprentice level at least.I'll trade dl's for dollars anyday.If I only got 25 cents for every WB,WMP or wall I could survive.

.This would encourage me to better ,more complete skinning.Things like Icon Packages and sysmetrix,that I have avoided in the past,I would now take the time to do.This would also encourage skinners to take advantage of all the new features that Adam has put into SkinStudio.(and probably increasing the sales of SS too)

.The prices frogboy mentioned seem high tho...If you have a suite of skins,1$ per section would sell a lot of skins and people could choose which pieces they wanted.Might have to make walls cheaper,(they could be included in the price of a WB) and you would have to give away dock icons unless they were a whole premium set.

.Purchasers would need free updates to skins when they become available.I havnt got a clue how the single click purchase would work,Unless it means automatic deduction from a CC or a prepaid account by money order.Handling 1$ transactions 1 at a time sounds difficult.This would need to be as painless as possible.

.Ive always thought WC did things kinda backwards in only showing the public the highest rated stuff to dl.Makes more sense to me to show them everything,but only allow them to dl the higher rated stuff if they subscribe.You'll get lots of whiners,but you'll cut back on the bandwidth.(and maybe make a few dollars in the process)
Reply #81 from WinCustomize Forums Top
One more thing...premium skins would definitely need there own section or they would be lost with all the "regular" submissions.
Reply #82 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh...and you picked a bad time of year for a subscription drive.
Reply #83 from WinCustomize Forums Top
...is there a good time...??



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Reply #84 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Not all. X-mas is a good part of the year to do that. Give a subscription to one of your friends. Would be a cool present.

[Message Edited]
Reply #85 from WinCustomize Forums Top
But implementing an idea like that, Brainiac, could hurt the site.

I mean, if someone makes two or three skins and they never get to be "supreme" skins along with the ones everyone pays attention to, they may quit skinning an we could lose potentially great skinners or subscriptions, etc.

If the skins are all stuck in the same category, than everyone gets equal attention. If the best skins are stuck in a particular folder, everyone will view that folder and to hell with the other one with other skins that didn't make the cut, or something.
Reply #86 from WinCustomize Forums Top
...is there a good time...??


...right after a server failure. That's the best time for sure!
Reply #87 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Btw, $.99 is the least you can realistically charge for something because the credit card companies absorb like 25 cents per charge right off the bat.  You get less than $1 and the processing fees eat it all up.
Reply #88 from WinCustomize Forums Top
paying for premium suites i agree with. and having premium skins for the subscribers and the stardock customers..level 3 having fewer choices than level 4 and so on..

but if u start puting a price on the majority of the skins. it will in my opinion start to cut in to family comunity u have built here and turn it in to a buy or buzz off atmosphere..

many kids with lil to no free spending cash but come here to look at and enjoy the awe inspireing works would be the most to suffer. i do know kids who have single parents that have pc acess and net acess but dont have the funding, for such purchases on a constant basis...i dont believe turning this site in to an elitest colony would be as beneficial as many believe...

i do however believe that if an artist makes a exceptional skin he or she can request it( judged by a majority vote Admins) to be added to the pay page for the executive skins or used as subscription premium skins..

this will offer more skins for sale (hence bringing in $ for WC)as well . motivate all skinners to get more intricate with their works. and allow the skinner to decide if a skin he or she made is to be given freely or submitted for purchase...

if i ever built a skin as awesome as many of the works iv seen here, id be so proud id want eveyone to have it.. i wouldnt care abt getting paid ..but i think those who do this for the $ should get compensated if their work is judged by their peers to be worth paying for ...
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Reply #89 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Good idea Madice
.CoyoteMy,I disagree...Everyone must start somewhere,you have to practice.I think anyone willing to try and sell their skins should be allowed to.They either sell or they dont.The site is hosting them now for free.
.A separate category is the only way to go,most people will always go for the free stuff.A skinner can always leave behind some free stuff to generate interest in his premium work.You want the premium library easily identifiable.
Reply #90 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if I were to manage to actually make something at this,I would still do the occasional free skin to generate interest in the product and community.
Reply #91 from WinCustomize Forums Top
In other words...I'm desparate!Todays menu is coffe and popcorn.
Reply #92 from WinCustomize Forums Top
im 16, now tell me, where am i gonna get a credit card? from my mom or dad? yeah right, they would tell me not to waste it on nonsense. what i am trying to do is to go to a bank and get one of the prepaid credit cards, but i dunno,, i think that you hafta be 18... maybe not, i will try today, if all goes well, by tommorrow i will have a subscription. oh, one thing i realized, you have a limit on how much people can download right? 50mb i think, but, i have also found out that there is a way to download more, no im not talking about making new accouonts, i will email it to I.R.B so that people dont abuse this right. i think that it should be fixed, well, happy holidays, in the next month, im not gonna have alotta time to go online cuz my term ended but while im at home, i will mess around with skins, logons and bootskins and maybe when i come back, i will have more than money to contribute... MERRY CHRISTMAS(not politically correct my a**!) AND A HAPPY NEW YEARS!!! be safe and dont drink too much on new years. c ya'll later.
Reply #93 from WinCustomize Forums Top
In response to Frogboy on post #69:

If you implement ANY of that stuff you might as well shut down this site because you are going to lose ALOT of visitors and customers and business.

They will start going to other sites instead.

The old saying aplies here: "Why pay for it when I can get it free somewhere else?"

On the other hand if you did implement that stuff, I will still be here. Kona is hard to get rid of.
Reply #94 from WinCustomize Forums Top
#82 by Skinner I.R. Brainiac - 12/10/2003 2:56:05 PM Oh...and you picked a bad time of year for a subscription drive.


^^^agrees

Another reason to push the date of buying the servers to Feburary giving the subscription drive a chance.


As far as advertising... I have my rants about that. Currently ads do not or will not pay for a site like this.

Technically it should at least pay for 3/4 of it but it doesn't. I think its due to poor market and a TOTAL misunderstanding of how to advertise on the internet.
Reply #95 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think, Kona, most visitors on this site are adults and they do have credit cards.

Although money orders could be a sulution, I think it also causes more problems.
Reply #96 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I stay in the house 24/7 due to my condition and the only thing I live for is ER on TNT/NBC


Try Star Trek
Reply #97 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Although money orders could be a sulution, I think it also causes more problems.


PAYPAL is the solution.
Reply #98 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Kona is hard to get rid of.



we know kona, we know.
Reply #99 from WinCustomize Forums Top
my user ID: 590340
Your user ID: 737304

I have been here awhile.
Reply #100 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Ok please explain to me because I have this for a while. This is a skinning community but when I look at the library and the top dl section most are stardock programs. So really to me I think this a Stardock's skinning community. As for Themexp.org I think their traffic is a lot higher than WC(based on # of DL),and yeah they do have more ads than WC. But Ive never heard of any "premium subscription" in there, how can a community like that can survive?