Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,927 views 522 replies
Reply #101 Top
VERY GOOD POINT. Maybe WC is Stardock in disguise.
Reply #102 Top
UID# 306363 i been here a lil while too

[Message Edited]
Reply #103 Top
If I as a subscriber(OD, Wincustomise, Premium Skins Ect) have to fork out ANY more money I'm Out of here. I have been here long enough to know THAT will not upset anybody. And don't tell me everything is the price of only a cup of coffee - to me it isn't. The additional cost of having to pay for skins (whatever the price) will make this site cost prohibitive for me.
Wincustomise will have to find another subscriber to take my place.

I sincerely hope it does not come to this.

Reply #104 Top
frogboy's user id: 000001



dang, i was gonna pitch in an idea but i forgot...... i will put it up if i remember later
Reply #105 Top
If I as a subscriber(OD, Wincustomise, Premium Skins Ect) have to fork out ANY more money I'm Out of here. I have been here long enough to know THAT will not upset anybody. And don't tell me everything is the price of only a cup of coffee - to me it isn't. The additional cost of having to pay for skins (whatever the price) will make this site cost prohibitive for me.Wincustomise will have to find another subscriber to take my place.I sincerely hope it does not come to this.


and so it begins...

if they start chargeing for everything, they will lose customers.
Reply #106 Top

#99 by Kona0197 - 12/10/2003 4:46:18 PM
my user ID: 590340
Your user ID: 737304

I have been here awhile.

 

Try 142. Been here a while too.  A bit longer actually.
But dang! 141 people beat me to it though, even though I signed up the very first day it was launched.

Reply #107 Top
my user ID: 590340
Your user ID: 737304



Mines 156. I guess I was little slow at first day too.

Anyway I hope solution will work out, and I think selling skins won't kill this site, as long as there's reasonable freebies too. I, for one, would offer freebie version of a skin with bit more features I'm selling.

I crtainly could use money. Wincustomize needs bit more money to keep up too.
[Message Edited]
Reply #108 Top
Z06Leonhart....Alexa puts Wincustomize at 3,528 ranking....and themeXP at 4,468...so a thousand or so higher up the size chain is significant.....[Wincusto is the larger]...
Reply #109 Top

I'm not really in favor of the premium skins idea either.  I fear a lot of skinners, and very probably the best ones here, will go for it. And in the end people like Ande, who bought a WC subcrition and bought an Obejct Desktop membership, will be stuck with the crap that's left.

I'm not against the idea that non-subscribers would have to pay for those skins though, but users who showed their support to WC by subscribing should get all these "premium" skins for free. Otherwise it's just not fair, ad people end up spending money for left-overs.

Just about everything else in Frogboy's post is fine though.

Reply #111 Top

Skinbase [for comparison] comes in at 47,000.

[That means there are 47000 sites with higher traffic]...

BTW....day zero got me '23'...

Reply #112 Top
themeXP is easier to remember so that may be a reason that you thought it had more popularity. well, i g2g, my last final exam and then im off to home. its been fun people, see ya in january. i will try to subscribe tomorrow, if i get the card. happy holidays.
Reply #113 Top
Kona.....1507....hence their money troubles likewise...
Reply #114 Top
but that means DA has more traffic than WC.
Reply #115 Top
Thanks Paul, but themexp.org has one product(and boot+wall) compare to WC having many StarDock products.
Reply #116 Top
There's also more skin groups and unmoderated hence higher traffic.
Reply #117 Top
I know I've left WC for a while (and will remain off for longer still... I haven't quite forgiven myself for the stupid stunt 6 or so months ago). I do, however, speak to Frogboy whenever he and I find a bit of time to do so.

I didn't realize WC was in such a dilemma until today. Most of you have contributed a significant amount (as shown by status and various other ways). I know Frogboy wants to prevent the problem of a small number of users paying for everyone else...

For those of you who may not quite understand just how expensive WC is, here's something I learned as a moderator on a different community...

Endeffect.com had a community message board on ezboard.com. We had a little under 3000 members. Every six months, we were required to pay at least 300.00 for the gold status (no ads, no spam, and main server privileges, sounds like WC? I thought so). Sometimes, with more traffic, that place costs us closer to 400.00 every six months. That's 800.00 a year for a community of 3000 members.

WinCustomize is a community with over 2 million members, receiving over 1000 hits every single day. Can you possibly imaging how many 20.00 subscriptions are needed to cover that cost? If we did it by Endeffect's costs: 3000:400, then WC would have 2,000,000: ?. The cost then would be something like 533,333.33 per year.

20.00 subscriptions (remeber, they're for two years so it's 10.00 a year). This community, per year, needs to acquire at least 50,000 subscriptions from its users. That's just the bandwidth costs. I didn't add in the hardware and the maintenance costs. This problem is a headache for Frogboy and all the admins of this place.

All of this is also preaching to the wrong people. People who do use the messageboards are usually contributors. The most frustrating thing for any admin, mark my words, is to get this message to the ones who only abuse the bandwidth (downloading and demanding more).

I might suggest that the admins put up a contribution counter. I can't promise you that I will contribute often. However, for those of us who're looking to give a bit more than just 20.00 every two years, perhaps this is a chance to.

Give some of us the chance to contribute in fragments of 5.00 or 10.00 or however much we felt we can spare. Perhaps not everyone can afford 20.00 subscriptions off the bat, but with a larger berth of contribution flexibility, all of us can support Frogboy and the WC community. Even a thousand 1 dollar contributions is worth something.

Now that I've said all that, I'm going to disappear again. Best of luck to all of you.
Reply #118 Top
https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?authorid=0

USER ID=0

it takes forever to load cuz its an 8.1 meg page. i never got it to load all the way.
Reply #119 Top
ErRoR5o1 - you're being a nuisance, behave
Reply #120 Top
yes a pay pal contribution system would be good. that way we can add to the fund as we have better cash flow times ...
Reply #122 Top
well there goes my 1956 ferarri
Reply #123 Top
50 megs worth of downloading. 2 million members. That's, at least, (seeing how so many people in the past and now are hitting the cap) is 100,000,000 megs worth of downloading per year... Divide the $500,000 per year by (remember, this is all an estimation) by 100,000,000 downloads... my answer is 0.005cents per download. My estimates may be overboard (I don't have Frogboy's accounting books on me).

-----

Okay, you're right. It's overboard. Sorry I said anything. Me and my big pathetic mouth.
[Message Edited]
Reply #124 Top
Christ on a Crutch...

What in the hell do you think helps pay for this site with the cross draw on traffic for the Applications and the Skins and such to apply with those applications?

Stardock Products and their respective Web Sites in and of themselves do not take any funding AWAY from Wincustomize but in fact can be a DRAW to the site.

It isn't Rocket Science, as far as paying out money already for Products you get a freaking user level giving you full access to unlimited downloads. But the money paid for the products don't help pay for the WinCustomize site I bet your thinking. I am willing to bet they do, where in hell do you think the money comes from that offsets the lack of Subscriptions?

I find it rather repugnant to think that people can not actually sit down without anyone telling them anything and actually come up with how this site exists beyond the number of Subscribing Users compared to registered Users/Visitors excluding those Users who have cross referenced their production registration information which is a damn good indication that the sale of said product did in fact have some affect in keeping the site alive.

How in the hell did the connection to Stardock and Stardock products become a tangent issue I'll never know.

Who here honestly believes that there is anyway possible to justify the documented ROI in investing in this site as a positive cash flow for Stardock when it comes time to site down and cut expenditures with less than dying Return On Investment stickers slapped all over it?

WinCustomize sure does not exist to make anyone rich or even to turn a profit, that's for sure.

It exists for those who find the positive aspects of the community, having access to news, applications, skins, themes, icons, friends and to some extent a marketing tool for products which in turn do feed back into the site in some fashion so get over it already.

Reply #125 Top
/me *waves* at Elf! Good to see you; have wondered how you were doing. Have a good holiday season!