Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,920 views 522 replies
Reply #51 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Like some others, i have seen this coming for some time now and i am glad that Brads getting this off his chest because its long overdue. There is no such thing in this world as a "free lunch" anymore. You either "Buy" or say "Goodbye". It really is as simple as that and the Skinning Community has to realise that. Customization of computer desktop lay outs and all the ancillary activities are becoming hugely popular and the Skinning Community and the CONSUMER must adapt to these changes otherwise our beloved Wincustomize is going to go down the pan. Over my dead body >

If you did not see this thread https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=216300&BID=WC&page=1#216965 read it now and tell me that your blood does not boil? Mine certainly did hence why i asked for its removal as i found it rather.....well i'll say no more otherwise some rather unpleasant words are going to come out. Its most probably good that it was not zapped by Jafo or one of the other Mods as it just goes to show to everyone what is going on.

Solutions?
1. No Stardock purchase.........No downloads from WC. Viewing access only.
2. OD purchase.......Annual subs to include cost of full unlimited access to WC.
3. WB or Iconpackager or other Stardock product purchase......Annual subs to include cost of download access to library relating to purchase only plus download access to walls, logons etc.
4. OD or WB try before you buy.....Hmmmmmmmm. Tricky very Tricky. This is the "open door" to the treasure trove and needs careful thought. You have got to give these folks the cake but leave off some of the icing and decoration so they come back for more. This needs more thought when it comes to WC access.

These are just my initial thoughts and opinions for what they are worth and are very much "off the hoof" but one things for sure - we have got to do something about this situation. We are most probably fortunate that matters have not reached critical level yet but they are not far off so we have a bit of breathing space to try work out what is best for everyone concerned

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Reply #52 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here is thinking on the try before you buy logic. What about setting a kind of expiration on the skins that someone downloads that doesn't have a subscription or own any OD products? Such as if you come as a visitor and download a skin it only can be used for short time if you don't buy the product or WC subscription. Don't even know if this is a workable suggestion. Just a thought.
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Offworld Trading Company
Reply #53 from WinCustomize Forums Top
u need a large eye catching banner on front page sayin sumpthing like WE NEED UR HELP and then give the details of whats going on... and make it sticky (Meaning that it stays at the top of the page) the casual visitor. might not know whats going on.. i really didnt know til i came here to read the posts...yes i havent been keeping up on whas goin on, my life keeps interfereing with my fun time. the lil subscription thingy at the top right of these pages, at first glance it looks like the button to buy the advertised wincustomize goodie displayed above it ..post a larger version of it on top of the main page with the header SAVE WINCUSTOMIZE.. get their attention i bet theres quite a few that would be willing to pay but just havent got the info abt whats goin on ..
Reply #54 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Yesterday...on a similar thread, while keeping a watchful eye on it I came to realise that lots of talk did diddly-squat to solve the 'problem'....so I subscribed instead.

Bit silly, really, as it doesn't 'get me anything' I haven't already got, being a site Admin.

What it DOES DO, however, is get that target $20 dollars closer.

Obviously I'm involved with this community....so it's only 'right' that I 'support' it as much as I can....[or do my little bit].

Now the trouble is that so many people in this world will leave things for 'the other guy' to sort out.....but just WHO IS this 'other guy'?  Anyone ever seen him?

Like the world's most prolific rock band ....'And Many More' [you see their stuff on every compilation].....they DON'T exist.

YOU are the 'other guy'......it's up to the 'yous' out there to step forward.  I couldn't justify wanting others to do what I hadn't done myself...so it was immaterial whether I was 'buying' something I had no use for.

Most post-mortems about what could have been done are a result of people not doing something right in the first place.

$20 US is about $25 or 6 AUS [we're catching up]...which will buy you 2 adult tickets to the movies in Australia....maybe 3 hours entertainment.

Somehow I have a tiny feeling I get more 'entertainment' right here...at Wincustomize.com.

Worth every penny...

Reply #55 from WinCustomize Forums Top
If this subscription drive doesn't work we should follow Leo's plan...sorta.
I'd say only allow 3 specific skins for download each year.
Why?
1. This will cut unsubscribed downloads dramatically
2. No more reregistering to get more MBs to download 'cause your only going to be able to get the same three skins

I don't come here very often and I download skins even less(I make my own) and even though whenever I ask for help on the forums I normally don't get any I still support this place. The little bit I do download is worth the cash and I think the subscription cost is dirt cheap so i'd feel bad if I didn't subscribe. I say why wait until the drive ends. I'd love to see how much bandwith drops with only 3 skins available to the gen. public

Reply #56 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Indeed Jafo, I agree.

Not long in coming here last year, I saw the VALUE right away and made haste to subscribe. And although I have yet to skin anything, though now I am working on that, I HAVE made many friends here that have helped me in ways unimaginable I could not have made anywhere else on the Internet, or in the "world" for that matter.

Wincustomize is a rare and exceptional "Home" that cannot be matched due to those who have taken a personal interest in it by volunteering, and or simply and cheaply subscribing.

I hope to be here long into the future.



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Reply #57 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad,

I hope everything works out. I enjoy this site and it's skins alot. But, I have problems of my own here. About a month ago, I purchased Object Desktop and a subscription to Wincustomize because I enjoy it so much I thought it was about time I contributed, plus I wanted the enhanced version. I can't get the enhanced version installed on my system, and my Stardock Central thing won't update corectly. I keep getting an error. So unless I cna get it straightend out, I feel like I just wasted about $70.00 I have Windows XP, Home Edition

I don't want my money back. All I want is what I paid for. I was really anxious to get it,too.

I emailed Stardock Support yesterday and am waiting to hopefully get the answers I need from them.
Reply #58 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Frogboy, you might want to repost the start of this thread in the news section. you make a very clear and compelling case here, where i feel the news post doesn't make it so clear.

the other point that really stands out to me is the one of cost. there is this regular point that $20 isn't a lot of money. for an adult working full time with a reasonable level of disposable income this is true.

however, what about people who find money is tight? kids using their parents PC? people who don't live in america, so who have a different level of average disposable income?

it is probably to late in the day now for this to help with the new servers, but longer term what about some skins available to non subscribers for only 50 cents each or less? the idea (perhaps a wild hope) is that if there are very cheep items you can sell more of them. personally, i feel that $8 for a christmas skin suite where i will only use part of it is quite a lot of money. but 50 cents for a single part of it might be worth it.

this is (partly) inspired by news reports here in England about the American presidential elections. apparently the new candidate challenging Bush (i don't remember his name off hand) has raised a load of money via the internet by accepting donations of any size. the inference was he got a lot of money via a very large number of very small donations.

might this sort of plan work for wincustomize? if you are a parent and your kids asked for $20 for a website subscription you might well say no. however 50 cents for a cool WB skin might work.


Jafo - Yesterday...on a similar thread, while keeping a watchful eye on it I came to realise that lots of talk did diddly-squat to solve the 'problem'....so I subscribed instead.


/me *applauds Jafo for his wise words*



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Reply #59 from WinCustomize Forums Top
woohoo i just went from a level 3 to a level 4..hey wheres my super powers? what no x ray vision ? i feel so so..ok so i dont feel any different well i do feel better abt helpin out
Reply #60 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Wow Feline, you took the idea right out of my mind, lol.

I was gonna submit that idea an hour ago, about buying individual pieces for half a buck but for some reason I didn't.

I think that'd be a great idea. Because over a two year period, Wincustomize would get well over $20 from a user if there's enough good content to keep users wanting more.

Normal users could be charged 50cents and people that really donate to the community could get freebies or lower prices maybe, who knows.

I do like this site and would hate to see it go.
Reply #61 from WinCustomize Forums Top
But Kona your attempting to provide icons for others...


good joke.
Reply #62 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WB or Iconpackager or other Stardock product purchase......Annual subs to include cost of download access to library relating to purchase only plus download access to walls, logons etc.


not to be the devils advocate but you do not have to dl a wall to use it.
Reply #63 from WinCustomize Forums Top
ok im not sure but i think that maybe the cost of man hours needed to keep track of the required paperwork for each individual sale would over come the amount of $ made off each 50c sale..internet sales do take a lil bit of book keeping. not to mention what ever requirements the various goverment agencies have..
itd be a novel idea if it were like the local store where we could hand a few quarters. but when usesing credit cards over the internet and stuff id imagine theres a lil more involved.
of course u could always make a few smaller and more restricted subscriptions available for those who use the resources less..
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Reply #64 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I for one would be really upset if this site would come to an end. I truely enjoy coming here and seeing the fantastic work all of the skinners do and all of the skinners and the like always answer you when you make a comment.I think it's great they take the time to do this. I even e-mailed Keila because I really love alot of her work and she answered me of course so do all of you I feel lucky I can afford a lot of what is offered and I have bought it.I just wish people who can would buy a subscription
Reply #65 from WinCustomize Forums Top

everybody will hate me for this, but before completely changing the site I think a single adbanner at the top of all pages would more then cover the cost. I hate ads, but I'd rather see an ad then this site go into disfunction ... well more disfunction

I'm afraid you're mistaken. We already have an ad banner on the top of the page for non-subscribers. Log off and you'll see it. It pays about $300 to $500 per month.  WinCustomize costs nearly $10k per month to exist.

Reply #66 from WinCustomize Forums Top
OK. I follow Jafo's example. It's rather silly in a way, because I do some work for SD. But then again I feel more user than Stardockian.

Kona: You don't need to have a credit card to subscribe. I don't have one either. I'll use a money order. From Europe that takes 4 to 6 weeks, but it will probably be faster from the States.

The postoffice is now closed here, but I'll deal with it first thing in the morning.
Reply #67 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm 27, and without a credit card - I'll admit, I pankicked and called my MOTHER [haha] for use of HER credit card - I'll reimburse her later. Thanks mom and thanks to YOU ALL here for contributing to a community that if no one contributed to, it would cease to exist.
Reply #68 from WinCustomize Forums Top
oh.

wow 10k thats not just piggy bank money.

You need more subscribers and thats about the end to it, but how to get more?
Reply #69 from WinCustomize Forums Top

We have a solution for money problems if the current method doesn't work. It's just one that most users will dislike.

For the purpose of brevity subscriber and users with access >citizen are synonymous.

The alternative (spelling it out) is:

1) Any skin author with journeyman or higher, when they upload a skin, icon package, theme, or wallpaper can set a check to have it become premium. It would cost $1.99 to $3.99 to purchase depending on what it was. The skin author would receive 25%.  It would be a 1 click type purchase.

WinCustomize subscribers would get a 50% discount on the prices. It would help skin authors get compensated for their skins, help encourage better skinning, and give new skinners a goal - to climb up the ladder to become a Journeyman.  And it would help WinCustomize.  Users, on the other hand, would likely find that many skins that were "free" were now not free anymore.

2) Non-subscribers would be put on a single smaller pipe for downloading.

3) Non-subscribers, when visiting the website the first time each day would be greeted with a full screen advertisement (ala Gamespot).

4) Download cap would be made both account based and IP based. No more creating a new account when the 50 meg cap is reached. We'll probably do that anyway.

5) Freebies like the Christmas suite would become non-freebies.

6) More overt Stardock presence on the site. Non-Stardock sections that are competitive in nature would have to justify themselves more. Non sections would be removed but they wouldn't be on by default.

Some of this probably should be done anyway. But I think we can all agree that these things, partciularly item 1, would be a major change.  Existing skins from top authors would suddenly cost money to download. I suspect there are plenty of skin authors who wouldn't mind seeing that anyway.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter WHY user X can't "afford" to get a subscription.  We're talking only needing 0.03% of monthly uniques to get a subscription. We find it pretty unconvincing taht 99.97% of the people who visit this site (heck, let's say ONLY 99.9% since quite a few people have subscriptions already) are hard luck cases.

There is more than one way to run a skin site. The alternative plan is one that I suspect would be quite popular with skin authors, admins, and even many users who don't see buying skins and themes any different than buying music or any other artistic content.

Reply #70 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have to say, I like the idea of number 1 there.. The idea of encouragement to make better skins/wallpapers is a good idea - although you'd think people would *want* to make their "best" walls already hehe.... I'm all for the pay site, if people can't open their wallets. These are usually the same people who will buy a 24 pack of beer, hit the movies, fill their gas tank to "cruise town", buy a bag of Doritos at 2 a.m. and a case of coke to wash it down - then actually anticipate sympathy when they cry "broke". *shrugs*
Reply #71 from WinCustomize Forums Top
...and the more I do the math YOU did Frogboy, the more it just irritates me..
Reply #72 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Ahhhh hell, I need to get $20 and get a subscription, I feel like crap now.


don't...

ever hear of the term "power lunch"?

well, this is a "power thread" in my opinion

There are a few different ways you can look at it.

I see it as a means for positive growth for the site and everyone who makes use of it, not a fight for the survival of new Citizens and a slash and bash make over for the site in general.

I think some really good things could come out of this that not only helps keep the life giving blood of the site flowing on the hardware/bandwidth side (money to operate)

I think that there is a distinct possibility that some of what comes from this thread could very well end up being a hugely invigorating boost instead of just a sustaining force...



For instance, KarmaGirl has started a contest to win funding for a Subscription.

Other such possibilities or expansion on her contest to coninute it in the future is not out of the question I am sure and there will be more positive things that come about
Reply #73 from WinCustomize Forums Top
the rise and fall of another community.
it happens.
people who are generous come and go in waves really
more in a larger scale than we can see every day.
Reply #74 from WinCustomize Forums Top
#46 by CoyoteMy - 12/10/2003 5:04:16 AM


I wouldn't call you a winer. You explained yourself.

I'll say 2 things though, I'll bet you'll spend 20 dollars on something you want to have in the next week dispite your other bills.

And the other thing is about the content... if there isn't really anything that you like then its ok to not want to buy the subscription... but if by "I don't really like anything here" you mean that you have downloade 100 megabytes of stuff then it is obvious that you like allot here.
Reply #75 from WinCustomize Forums Top
#69 by Scribe Frogboy - 12/10/2003 12:15:16 PM We have a solution for money problems if the current method doesn't work. It's just one that most users will dislike.


You mean the users that do most of the downloading?


Honestly I would love to see this plan. Hold off on getting these servers for another month and set up a subscriber plan. List the features and stuff.



handling multiple accounts for downloading will be limited because you would have to make 100's just to get at a few areas of the site.


You can also set it up such that the site is totally open (open as in its current state now) for a few wekends a month and other days its just limited.