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Apple: Glass houses alert!

Apple: Glass houses alert!

For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...

On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:

Plus this cute graphic:

Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:

  • Built in good searching
  • iChat AV (video chatting)
  • Dashboard
  • RSS support built into Safari (web browser)

On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this.  For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.

Let's take a close look at this:

Spotlight

Spotlight searching is quite impressive.  But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation.  Come on.  Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.

iChat AV

iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.

But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Clock

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience.  And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.

And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.

DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.

There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.

But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that.  One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place.  Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing.  Please. 

That is such an incredibly weak argument.  Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer. 

Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).

That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population). 

And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past.  One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!". 

And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything.  I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.

The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).

Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others. 

And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone.  If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.

Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system.  What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker.  That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked. 

Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO.  The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right.  And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.

No one likes a hypocrite.  Apple is a very innovative company.  But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs. 

update:  I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us.  It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.

So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.

And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.

Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.

33,138 views 87 replies
Reply #76 Top
Anyone remember a guy named Thomas Edison? He invented some stuff. He also took thousands of ideas from people and patented them under his own name. The real inventors have been lost throughout history. Microsoft and Apple are the same as Edison. How will history remember?
Frogboy, you are doing the right thing by keeping history true by speaking your mind.

Macrobaye, Thats about the tenth time on these boards, I have seen you called on something you say. You never give the backup and you call for a truce instead. Then a couple posts later you jump back in with more nonsense. I call it nonsense when you fail to produce the necessary info to back yourself up. This isn't a personal attack in any regards. Sometimes people repeat patterns and have no clue that others see right through them. It's just an observation and I thought you might want to know how others percieve your online ettiquette.
Reply #77 Top
Well. Froggy has a point. The 'we're the innovators MS just copies us' line that the Apple fanatics have used to death does sound hypocritcal.

Macrobyte: Saying ' MS does it more than us ' is just trying to cover it up. Apple either does it or dosen't, it's that damm simple.
Reply #78 Top
You know, this is the oldest battle of wits in all of computing. Apple took their OS design from Xerox, MS from Apple and NT from IBM. Point is, every one of these compainies have gone on borrowing or creating and improving on what someone else has done.

Secondly, Corporate world is not a friendly place. You want to take over a company? You buy them out for as little as possible to turn over your profif margin at a higher level. Basically all Corporate take overs are one company ripping off the next. So how is the OS wars any different?

Third, lets take a few steps back. OS-X is nothing more than the Mac UI over Linux, so heh, back off of any real innovations there. Linux has had the ability to put a Mac OS UI for it's look and feel for ages now. Yeah, they may have customized their version of the OS to suite their needs, but as any Linux user can tell you that's nothing new. They do this all the time. Yes, OS-X is great because of it too!

I used to work for Computer City, and there was a guy there that would day in and day out give me a load of "Mac is God!" crap, and even more so over "Photoshop is the End All!". More times than not, I proved this guy wrong and it made him furious with me. All because I could do the same work in a different program and get the exact same results and taken to a Printing company where it was printed up perfectly. It's called skill with the user and knowledge of how to get it done right!

Like most that post on here ( I would gather at least ) I build my own computers. Since Apple removed that ability from us by taking out the Clone business so that they got all the profits from their computers? I wouldn't buy into a Apple no more than I would go out and buy some PoS system from Compaq, HP, Sony, and quite a few others out on the market. The OS wars do not affect me one little bit, because I know both sides of the story.

Personally I love the fact that Frogboy posted his article, it's great. Macrobyte is just another die-hard Mac-Addict as we called them here, that cannot stand for anyone to tarnish anything Apple does. No matter how little, he's of the oppinion Apple can do no wrong. Well....... Unless you worked for both Microsoft, Apple, Xerox, IBM, Commadore? How the hell do you know if any of what you -read- coming from any of these companies is 100% true? You don't and can't possibly.

Frogboy has at least backed up everything he's stated with links, dates, quotes from individuals ( That can be doubted if they were printed in a mis-quote ). Macrobyte has continuously -Argued- without any form of any real proof of anything he's said other than ranted on about things that were already known and have been known for quite some time while dancing around Apple's door-step.

Point is, Apple borrows from others and then cries foul of anyone else that even Looks, Feels, or comes even a trifle close to anything -They- create for their precious OS! Even though eveyrone KNOWS already that Microsoft has done this over and over, at least they're not crying FOUL when someone does it to them. In short, they're pretty dang even except for the finger pointing that Apple tends to do. Worse part is, Apple users ( For some at least ) tend to get bent on anything said in a even slightly negative way about their prized Company of choice.

Hats off to Frogboy! Marvelous article indeed!
Reply #79 Top
For the record OSX is not Linux, it's NeXTSTEP made over which is based on Mach, with some BSD (it's called XNU). Apple bought the company NeXTSTEP which had Steve Jobs as CEO at the time and in te process got him back as well as aquiring that technology.

BTW, I think Frogboy was a little too fast to dismiss the new feature in ichat how it displays the people in there when there is 3, as far as I know no other messager does that.

And what's this I hear about a new keystroke in desktopX to hide the objects? Whoohoo.
Reply #80 Top
There is better things to do in life than argue over computers and software guys..
Reply #81 Top
What did MS actually do so wrong? They have done what they set out to do...Cheap PC's for the masses, based on their OS...Oh wow....what a crime!!! What would the alternative be...Apple Monopoly World...just sit and think, REALLY!

Macrobaye....who cares if your Imac is "big, white, shiny and hairless"... my custom built PC cost 1/3 of your piece of eyecandy, Looks way better and works x4 faster than it...yet I'd consider OSX etc as an OS, if if were available on a "non-monopoly" hardware option, but it isnt....so any notion of Apple being the champion of Joe Public is pure marketing bull-turd...
Besides anything Apple can do, plagurists can do better...remember...now it works in reverse too.

Im sick of people whinning that MS is evil...GET OFF THE BANDWAGON!!! This is corporate America youre talking about! I dont care who they bought up, who they sacked, who they went to bed with... All I care about is the end product, which may I add is pretty damn good...



Reply #83 Top
I think most people are missing the point. It seems to have become Apple Users Vs PC Users, but the new Apple campaign is about Apple Vs Windows. Apple isn't taking claim for the "innovations" in Tiger, but rather pointing out that they were the first to include it as part of the OS. Let's face it, if Windows natively had decent skinning support and whatnot Stardock would probably be in some trouble. Where as Apple is including features as part of its OS, Windows users must resort to running countless third party tools just to equal the functionality that the OS X has natively.

Currently I'm running MacroMaker, VolumeTray, DialogMate, WindowBlinds, NuonSoft WallCycler, just to name a few, all to add features in Windows that it doesn't come with, the OS X on the other hand does. To add to that, I don't use the explorer shell but rather I use Serenade, I have replaced the default windows task manager with Aldo's SpeedUp process, installed far far too many shell extensions, had to get a program to easily manage my start up tasks, and various other programs to adjust the context menu. What I'm getting at here is that it ridiculous to have to go through and run all these third party programs when Apple delivers it in a single package.

And I know a few people will give the defense that some would perfer to run third party programs and whatnot, that's all well and fine, however there's quite a few people who don't want to spend both the time and money on such things. It seems odd paying for third party programs to add functionality to an OS, it should be expected from the OS to begin with.
Reply #84 Top
ALSO! FrogBoy points out that relating DashBoard to Desktop Accessories is a strech, but it doesn't seem any further of a stretch than relating ObjectDock to Tab LaunchPad.

I'd also like to point out, that Apple users do tend to think they are better and act like egomaniacs when it comes to their OS, on the other hand Windows users seem to try to do everything possible to stray away from Windows.
Reply #85 Top

MacOS X is not very customizeable out of the box.  I have 10.3, no skinning, no way to turn off the semi-transparent inactive windows.


Most of what you mention you would have to find Mac equivalenets as well.

Reply #86 Top
Sometimes there is a need to point out when things are out of balance. I think your report is well said and was truly in need of being said. The people I know who complain about Micorsoft the loudest are strong advocates for Mac. I run Microsoft Windows XP and am really glad that there is a program like Object Desktop with all of it's wonderful features and ObjectDock with it's obvious possibilities for efficient functionality. After all, we all have a choice about whether or not to use any given system. It's nice to be able to customize the desktop and utilize a variety of links without having to write scripts all day long. I say yeah to the Stardock products and if Mac users have an issue, then maybe they should really look at where all their arrogance is coming from. I for one don't see that it helps the computing community. Thanks again to you Frogboy for all the obvious hard work and care you are putting into this site.
Reply #87 Top
I don't care if it's Unix, Linux, or what. My main point of saying this was that it's -Not- the -Original- OS anymore, it's not the MacOS that has been shoved in many of PC users face as being -The- OS! They've done the same beg, barrowing and stealing that MS has done for a long time. Except MS doesn't go around denying it, they brag about it. Apple just points fingers.

I'd still take Linux over the MacOS anyday. It's far more customizable, more effecient, and best yet? Doesn't have no direct tie-in to Apple or MS, there for no need to go out and buy a NEW OS everytime one of them gets some brain-fart for a -minor- addon as Apple is boasting right now. Almost everything shown here in this article is a -Minor- addon, nothing major, nothing earth-breaking, nada. Just a lot of bells and whistles pretty much. Something I'd call earth-breaking would be to have them make the MacOS run on PC's as well. Now THAT would be earth-shattering news! Not that I'd buy into it, but would be worthy of their bragging rights.

Anyways, hehehe. I've enjoyed reading this article and all it's responses. Take care!