Frogboy Frogboy

Apple: Glass houses alert!

Apple: Glass houses alert!

For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...

On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:

Plus this cute graphic:

Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:

  • Built in good searching
  • iChat AV (video chatting)
  • Dashboard
  • RSS support built into Safari (web browser)

On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this.  For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.

Let's take a close look at this:

Spotlight

Spotlight searching is quite impressive.  But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation.  Come on.  Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.

iChat AV

iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.

But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Clock

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience.  And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.

And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.

DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.

There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.

But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that.  One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place.  Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing.  Please. 

That is such an incredibly weak argument.  Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer. 

Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).

That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population). 

And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past.  One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!". 

And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything.  I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.

The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).

Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others. 

And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone.  If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.

Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system.  What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker.  That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked. 

Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO.  The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right.  And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.

No one likes a hypocrite.  Apple is a very innovative company.  But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs. 

update:  I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us.  It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.

So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.

And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.

Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.

33,138 views 87 replies
Reply #26 Top
paxx, your speaking like Apple has done this sort of thing before! Sure, there was Sherlock from Watson, but sherlock always existed, and it was constantly being upgraded and improved... in fact, Watson came after Sherlock was released. It wasn't until Apple included eBay searching in sherlock that Windows users got their panties in a bunch... and even with Watson, Apple offered the guy a friggin job! But he denied it, and so came Sherlock!

nice try tho... we know that Apple ripped off Konfab, but Konfab got the idea from Desk Accessories in the first place (as stated by Arlo Rose, creator of Konfab)! It just ended biting them in the @$$. MS does this stuff all the time. That's why they're the monopoly commiting poor business practice and Apple is the innovator with the occasional screw up. Because of this, Apple can get away with it. But we all know MS has gotten away with it hundreds of times before (see my above post)
Reply #27 Top

I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that *we're* being defensive.


For the record: I don't think Apple has "stolen" anything from us.


I think Apple ripped off Dashboard ideas from Konfabulator.  But that doesn't affect us one iota.


The reason I'm making a lot of noise on this is because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.


And even when caught red handed, you still have Mac zealots still lamely try to argue that there was prior art such as accessories back 20 years ago ro whatever.  Really sad.


Hey, by that reasoning, Mac users can't complain about ObjectDock, after all, Tab LaunchPad was available in 1994 and it provided the same functionality. So if you're going to play the prior art game, be consistent.


 


 

Reply #28 Top
BTW, please show where Arlo has claimed that desktop accessories were his inspiration? I have seen his claim just the opposite over at konfabulator.com.
Reply #29 Top
visit macbytes.com, there should be some articles with interviews with him
Reply #30 Top

How about a link? Given that Arlo has explained where he got his ideas for Konfabulator HERE: http://www2.konfabulator.com/journal/ and you are now attempting to claim otherwise, the onus is on you to provide support for your assertion.


"The concept had nothing in the slightest to do with Desk Accessories, and it had absolutely nothing to do with Active Desktop. It was about empowering the user to make their own little apps that did what they wanted." -Arlo, June 30, 2004.

Reply #31 Top
Frogboy you need to stop whining. Arlo worked for Apple, saw Desk Accessories as a cool concept, but knew that it needed to be re-worked. He saw HyperCard, an application that allowed users to create "widgets" out of JavaScript and AppleScript coding. He saw the potential behind these applications and made the most out of it. Konfabulator is a really great program, but you've got to be out of your mind to say that Arlo would have created this application if Desk Accessories, HyperCard, and AppleScript never existed!

BTW, in that same interview, Arlo claims that he was the first to 'implement the idea", although "the folks over at Stardock re-worked one of their programs to work/look like Konfabulator". You sure do have friends in high places.

Bottom line is that Arlo wouldn't even have been working on the mac platform is Steve Jobs didn't hire him to begin with. Therefore he wouldn't have worked on AppleScript and Desk Accessories. Therefore he wouldn't have even thought to make Konfab. Case closed.

And about the dock in OD, you're right that Tab LaunchPad was out before, but OD looks nothing like it. It looks like Apple's dock, to the pixel. Now you can congratulate your developers for making a perfect copy, or you can admit that you took the look/design/fuction of Apple's dock and turned it into software for the PC, that you currently make money off of.
Reply #32 Top

Macrobaye: You need to quit name calling when faced with your own error.


You claimed Konfabulator was based off of Desk accessories. You claimed Arlo admitted this.  I provide a link and a quote from 5 days ago that contradicts your claim.


In resonse, you call me a "whiner". What exactly am I whining about? What do I care if Apple knocks off Konfabulator. How does that harm me? Why would I whine about that?


Given that you falsely claimed DesktopX was a rip off of Konfabulator I am not about to take your word for something without some evidence. Provide a link.


And I am quite well aware that Arlo is very much of the Apple mindset in that he, like Apple, thinsk he's some sort of innovation god. DesktopX doing mini-applets (what he calls widgets) long before Konfabulator existed is pretty easy to prove given that the library here is full of clocks and calendars and MP3 players and all the usual "widget stuff" that were uploaded by users long before Konfabulator existed. 


I don't really care what Arlo himself claims as that's really not the point.


What needs to be recognized is that Apple is ridiculing Microsoft for ripping them off even as Apple rips off one of its own ISVs. No skin off my back but given how often Mac zealots run around the net screaming the "Apple is god" mantra (and we've all seen it for years) this is a good wake up call.

Reply #33 Top
I think you'll find that the visuals in Object Dock Plus looks more like Tab LaunchPad than anything else!
Reply #34 Top
I only want to say:

0) Forgive any spelling and redaction mistakes for I am not a natural English speaker
1) I am tired of this discussion, being the argument childish
2) Marketing has been the Apple's strategy for the last...er...many years. Being exageration part of marketing I think Apple is in its right to claim its OS features innovative.
3) Apple is introducing this features as new for Mac users. Features in MacOS are different from thir party software becasuse of the integration they provide.
4) Apple is a mere hardware company, and being the SO specially made for ther computers the key word "innovative" is cleary well used
5) If you are really tired of it, change to the Yellow Dog Linux OS. Sure, you will miss the iLife style, but you will lear the value of your loved OS (Windows or Mac, I really don't care) and as consecuence you will also learn the true meaning of "innovative" in a sarcastic way (I said that because I did, actually I am using my iBook-YDL to write this)
6) Please stop this senseless discussion. Mac VS Windows is a very old topic, and this is just a derivated product of it. Plus, What will you win with it? Mac "zealots" really care little of the wintel world (MacOS has simply fullfilled all of the operating Systems obtejctives) and so should do the windows users with Mac. If you are comfortable with your OS, just use it. Otherwise..."switch"

Thanks for reading
Reply #35 Top

macrobaye:  BTW, I did a google search and I did find a place where Arlo claimed that we copied Konfabulator. But that makes me think it even less likely that Arlo would say that he copied Desktop Accessories.


For the record, Konfabulator came out in 2003.  DesktopX in 2000. DesktopX has always supported mini applets:


Screenshot from 2001 of objects created in 2000: https://www.stardock.com/products/desktopx/dx-mar01a.jpg


Using DesktopX to put objects, widgets, mini-applets, whatever you want to call them was a large part of DesktopX's appeal for a long while. There's really no excuse for some Mac zealot to try to argue that PC users stole Konfabulator's idea.  If DesktopX came out near the same time there might be a reason but we're talking THREE years and DesktopX has always been quite popular (I'm certain DX's user base even in 2001 is higher than Konfabulator's user base is today).


But that's getting off track because after all, if I had something against Konfabulator, I would be rooting Apple on for crushing a potential competitor. 


 

Reply #36 Top
I agree completely, pleowulf.

Frogboy, we're not getting anywhere with this immature spew of arguments. We have two extreme sides, and as we all know there are three sides to every argument: mine, yours, and the truth. At the rate we're going, we won't reach it. Let's just be gentlemen about this and end it right now.

The Mac vs PC debate has been going on for too long. To each his own.
Reply #37 Top

Integrating a feature already provided by an ISV in either Windows or MacOS X is not bad, like apple is doing with Dashboard, but saying that APPLE INVENTED IT ("*SHOUTING*") is ridiculas. Microsoft Integrated IE in Windows a long time back when there was another web browser floating call Netscape, & I don't remembar Netscape saying that MS ripped their idea of Browser by which U can open webpage.

I myself like to see features provided by a ISV integrated in OS as then it comes free, but saying that other RIPPED IT is crap, I prefer that apple make the widgets of konfobulator compatible with Dashboardt & also provide users the ability to make their own widgets like we do with DesktopX, or else Dashboard will be limited to only a few Widgets as the numbar of Widgets for Konfobulator is already a lot higher.
Reply #38 Top
SuaravX:

Dashboard DOES allow it's users to make widgets. All widgets are, simply, are "web sites" cut down to neat little applications called "applets". They use HTML, JS, XML etc coding, depending on the features you want to implement! So practically anyone with JS and HTML knowledge can create widgets, withouth the need of xCode or other developers tools
Reply #39 Top
This isn't about Mac vs. PC it's about truth versus lies and/or misinformation. Everything Frogboy has said is right on especially since you can't conjure proof of your claims while he can.
Reply #40 Top
Mav, good example of false information. Frogboy gives his side, his OPINION of the argument, and I gave mine. I proved that Arlo says DX was modified to be more like Konfab. I proved that Arlo worked with Apple on Desk Accessories, but he's got a big ego, and doesn't like to admit that he was inspired. I proved that Microsoft is much worse in the rip-off department than Apple. I proved that Apple didn't rip-off Watson, they offered the creator a job to work on Sherlock for them, but he declined.

There are three sides to every story, and we're no where near the complete truth. Let's just stop while we can.
Reply #41 Top

Thanks Mav.  And exactly, this isn't a Mac vs. PC thing.


This is about one company A whose made a career demonozing company B for ripping them off even as company A is ripping off company C.


Normally, hypocricy takes time to occur.  I.e. A person or company decries a thing and does that thing much later.


In this case, the hypocricy is occurring at the very same time.  At the same time Apple is ridiculing (or goading) Microsoft for always stealing from Apple, Apple is stealing from their own ISV.


What I have found both surprising and revealing is how some of the Mac people think that *I* am whining or being "immature".  This issue affects me not at all. I just felt it should be pointed out so that next time a wave of Mac zealots descends on us claiming that feature X was "stolen" from Apple that this can be pointed out to them along with the lame prior art arguments Apple devotees have used (the whole Desk accessories thing is pretty funny if you think about it 20 years ago prior art when it's obvious where Apple got their "widget" ideas from).

Reply #42 Top

Macrobaye: Most of what you claim you "proved" you didn't. You simply made those assertions.  You didn't "prove" that Microsoft rips off more than Apple. You didn't prove that Apple didn't rip off Watson. You simply gave your opinion. No links, no quotes, no evidence. I haven't even seen evidence that Arlo worked on Desk applets. You just claimed that and then said you "proved it".


On top of that, you have also characterized those who disagree with you as whiners and immature. What exactly have I written that warrants that kind of personal attack?


My article is an editorial. It's an opinion piece.  It is my opinion that it is very tacky for a company to tear someone else down for stealing ideas even as they do it to another.

Reply #43 Top
WHOOPIDIDOO FROGBOY! Now double the dosage, you've made your point. No need to cram it down our throats. Go back and read some of my posts, I believe I acknownledged that Apple took the idea for Dashboard from Konfab.

And you say that it's got nothing to do with you, then why do you even care? You just want to rile up the mac users of this site (I also have a PC by the way).

And one more thing. I do think it is VERY immature to make constant reference to mac users as "zealots" when you know damn well that if I started bashing Windows and PC users, I'd have you and the whole lot of Windows users in here yelling at me. So don't be hypocritical in saying that only Mac users back their computer and OS. The road runs both ways, Frogboy. If you'd like me to demonstrate, I'll make a rather derogatory post about "Windoze" users or "M$ Lemmings" on the message board, and all hell will break loose. But I'm a reasonable person, and I know when to quit. I don't have to prove that to you, because you know damn well what would happen if I were to do so. So stop being so freeeking hypocritical. I know Apple took the idea from Konfab. I'm jsut saying that Arlo deserved what he got for working for Apple in the first place, and for not patenting Konfab.

Case closed.
Reply #45 Top
BTW: is OS X's interface really raster? I thought I read that it was all vector, which it does look so since it's so smooth.
BTW: I see nothing in common between Desktop Accessories and Desktop X, or Dashboard.  Desktop Accessories is a bundle of small applications like Calculator, Note Pad and Key Caps.  That's not what Desktop X or Dashboard is about.  They're about offering an easy way for just about anybody to create an interactive object on our Desktop, limited only by your imagination.
This is not a computer discussion, it's not about which computer is better than another. It's about a company claiming others copy from it, when it's pretty obvious that there are potocopiers too in Apple's offices.
Reply #46 Top
The OSX interface is made up by tif and pdf files. I think the Quartz technology brings it to live.

Everybody "loans" ideas from everyone, it's always been like that - always will. I don't really care about that, it only makes our experiences better and it drives technology forward. I'm just sick of the way they market it. Those "Redmond" posters really make me dislike Apple.
Reply #47 Top
Let the little apple brother play with his toy, He's always going to try to be as big as his bigger brother Billy G.
Now im exited cause the IT guy suppose to get me new Mandrake (Big download) Im more exited about Linux screenshots then that new mac Tiger Tigeroo ones.
Reply #48 Top
Well,

I guess at least 2 of us are old enough to remember Borland's Sidekick on windows 3.1 which was way better then the first revisions of ObejctDesktop tab launcher or MAC's launcher.
Reply #49 Top
Well to add my $.25 (damn inflation!) I used Windows, OSX, and Linux on a daily basis. Do I prefer one over the other, not really. I like the ease of use of my Mac, gaming on Windows, and the power of Linux. Do I use the "Mac-ified" themes here on Wincustomize? If you are considering Object Dock, then yes, but I am using Universe Metal theme right now, and have used others like Indemnity, ToonXP, and others that didn't cost money too. Do I like the innovation that Stardock has come up with? Definately.

Now for the big question - do I care where the technology came from, or who created it first? This is a trickier point. I care where it comes from, and I believe that the current software I am using gets the credit deserved. If Stardock saw something that was cool in another OS, and developed a Windows version, and it is not infringing on any copyrights, patents or trademarks, then Stardock should get the kudos for the development. Is it still an Apple-first thing? Doesn't really matter does it? I mean has nobody here ever gotten a hand-me-down? Someone else used that first. Played a first person shooter? They are all looking at what works and doesn't work in the other FPS's out there, and improving on that. The whole point about widgets is kind of moot in my book. True, I do agree that the marketing people should be advertising them as "new to the Mac" or OSX, but this isn't the first time that marketing "gurus" have been mis-leading. Remember when Windows95 came out? True Apple jumped all over Microsoft about there being nothing new about it, but Microsoft saw an idea, and adapted it for themselves. It should have been promoted as new to Windows, but it wasn't and now with XP, Windows finally has a decent OS.

Some of us are just glad to have innovation on the OS of our choice. Let those who have been wronged but not receiveing credit take that cause up with those who have wronged them, but let's not get so caught up in it that we start to miss out on some of the great things that are happening in OS'es right now.
Reply #50 Top
Are they still planning on releasing OSX for pc or will that take forever? Soon we wont be able to tell the difference between win and mac.

I really do like the look of Mandrake Linux it just looks and feels so unique.
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