Apple: Glass houses alert!

from WinCustomize Forums

For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...

On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:

Plus this cute graphic:

Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:

  • Built in good searching
  • iChat AV (video chatting)
  • Dashboard
  • RSS support built into Safari (web browser)

On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this.  For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.

Let's take a close look at this:

Spotlight

Spotlight searching is quite impressive.  But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation.  Come on.  Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.

iChat AV

iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.

But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Clock

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience.  And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.

And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.

DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.

There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.

But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that.  One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place.  Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing.  Please. 

That is such an incredibly weak argument.  Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer. 

Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).

That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population). 

And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past.  One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!". 

And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything.  I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.

The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).

Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others. 

And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone.  If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.

Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system.  What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker.  That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked. 

Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO.  The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right.  And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.

No one likes a hypocrite.  Apple is a very innovative company.  But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs. 

update:  I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us.  It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.

So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.

And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.

Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.

33,137 views 87 replies
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I need a bigger image of that spotlight searching thing. Can't read it, so I can't really tell what it does.

At any rate, 1) I always blame the marketeers, for lying, cheating and swindling is in their job description and 2) the "my OS is better than yours" is so childish (not talking about this post, by the way, but more on the Mac vs Windows vs *nix thing in general).
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hear hear!

Reminds me of two small children fighting over the "new" toy! It was old then, it's really old now!

Thanks for the heads up Brad!
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
macrobaye will be here in a minute... saying God is a Mac user or something equally propostorous.
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Yeah, I'm beginning to agree nocool... the articles are beginning to look "defensive" now. lol

Although, on a side note: What's this I hear about Konfabulator being ported over to Windows? That should be of more interest to WinCustomize visitors.
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
JTFolden, one reason I'm bringing this up loudly because mark my words, as soon as Mac users generally have Dashboard they're going to start retroactiving claiming that programs like DesktopX or Samurize stole their ideas from it.
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Absolutely correct on everything, Brad. Apple better watch what they say next time.

On another note though, I'm not sure if it is related the Tiger's announcement of not, but Konfabulator in its latest release (not sure how new it is but version 1.7) has what is called Konspose (like Expose) where you can hit F8 and make the widgets come to the front and hit it again to make them go back to where they were.

I think this works better than Apple already since you can have the widget there with other apps as well all in one big happy family (like Desktop X), but no matter Desktop X still has SO MUCH more power than any of these can image.

It seems everyone who is copying is copyinig from Stardock and what a shame. For example Windows has been showing a lot of features related to WindowsBlinds, WindowFx, and others that are a little too close for comfort, but still they are no where as clear as the Konfabulator/Apple ideas.

Thank God though people like you stand firm on these things, its always the little guys you are cheated.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Since switching to Mac 2 months ago, I say, Once You Go Mac, You Never Go Back. I love my Mac.

OK Windows users, start the bashing.

Here we go again.

(damn 2 weeks ago I told myself not to post on Mac vs Win boards)

Oh well!
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Dang ok, one more thing. Can someone show proof who came up with the Widgets idea first? Was it Mac, Konfabulator, DesktopX, who. Obviously it must of struck a nerve with Brad(Frogboy). I guess he feels DesktopX was first.

You all got me curious now.
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jarget, Desktop X was released over 2 years ago. Konfabulator is maybe 1 year old, and Dashboard not even out yet.  You do the math.
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Does anyone remember Borland's Sidekick?
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
BTW: we also have OS 10.3 systems at work, and must admit it is fun to work with. A little (OK, a LOT) confusing at first, but stil kinda cool effects that are way smoother than anything on Windows.  The fault on Windows is mostly because of its raster interface. This will change with Longhorn's vector GUI.Anyway, I like OS X, it's neat, there is no denying it Apple definately found a way to port Unix on the desktop in an efficient way.
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
alright...aren't the "desktop accessories" from the old black and white mac screenshot The Same Exact Ones, Except Less Fancy, that are shown in the dashboard screenshots. here's a link. http://images.apple.com/macosx/tiger/images/indexdashboard06282004.jpg
notepad...check
clock...check
puzzle...check (not shown but was in the keynote video)
calendar...check
what's the big deal. just let apple do its thing.
and same for object desktop, and konfabulator.
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
thanks sept1mus, I appreciate the thought.

i really don't have much to say...nor do i care to. my mind's not gonna be changed by one windows user. Apple has always been an amazingly and unusually inventive and innovative company, and the one (or second) time Apple has used a third party developer to its advantage, the entire windows world flips upside down in anger and laughter.

For those of you who have forgotten about Microsoft's uninventive purchasing or ripping off of other companies, let me refresh your memories:

Internet Explorer came from Spyglass, Inc's Mosaic web browser. Things were fine at firts, but as things usually turn out with MS's third party developers, Spyglass was getting ripped off bigtime, and ended up sueing MS, settling for a mere 8mil. 8mil for the program the the $50bil company's entire OS was based on!

Microsoft Word owes a lot to Bravo, the original GUI Word Processor developed at Xerox PARC. Originally made for IBM, the software, which would eventually become Word, was stolen from PARC (famous for creating the OS which Apple ended up getting a bite of). Microsoft's solution to keep PARC happy? They hired the original developer in 1981, and fired him in 1982.

PowerPoint was originally developed by Bob Gaskins, a former Berkeley Ph.D. student, in 1984. Originally made for the Mac (Apple) platform, MS bought the program (and it's company) in 1987 for $14mil. The student was not offered a job.

FrontPage was initially created by the Cambridge, Massachusetts company Vermeer Technologies Incorporated, evidence of which can be easily spotted in filenames and directories prefixed _vti_ in web sites created using FrontPage. Vermeer was acquired by Microsoft in 1996 specifically so that Microsoft could add FrontPage to its product line-up. SO much innovation!

Excell, originally called Multiplan, was developed, in fact, by Microsoft... sort of... The original app, Multiplan, was an original MS program, but it sucked. In 1985, facing tremendous opposition from Lotus 1-2-3, MS decided to basically copy the Lotus program, calling it Excell. Well, they got the glory, and it quickly became the #1 spreadsheet software on the market. Lotus developers were not available for questioning (they didn't return my calls )

And last, but certainly not least, comes Windows. Originally called, Interface Manager until an MS employee told Gates that the name sucked, Windows was "developed" back in 1983 after Bill Gates had been shown a Macintosh prototype by Steve Jobs early in its development, around 1981, and Microsoft was partnered by Apple to create some of the important early Mac software, such as Word and Excel. Gates is reported to have demanded of his engineers "I want Mac on a PC, I want Mac on a PC!". It was this desire to see a Mac-like interface on the then-cheaper Intel-based hardware that was the inspiration and driving force behind Windows.

Ok, I didn't really need to get into all that, but I just wanted to show all of you that Apple really isn't that bad. I think after all the innovation, they deserve a break. And the Apple base is certainly willing to give it to them...but the MS junkies.... oohh no, they call 'foul ball' and whine, because finally, FINALLY, Microsoft isn't the one doing the copying.

Don't get ahead of yourselves, PC users, 2006 is just a short way away. And as soon as it comes out, you can guarantee a slew of developers calling 'foul'. But Apple users? Where will we be? We'll be sitting back, endulging in our glorious OS, saying "I told you so" You can't really believe that everything in Longhorn has been developed by MS, can you?

Frogboy, I think this needs to stop. Glad to see your a Mac user as well as a PC user. I've got a PC myself, nice little thing with the souLuna skin on it now... but I'll always love my PowerBook and Mac OSX much more... I guess because I know where it came from!

No hard feelings, Frogboy, and I mean that. I hope you can say the same for me.

As for the rest of you, who probably expected something like this out of me, you can kiss my big, white, shiny, hairless.... iMac.
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Why is this in the News section on wincustomize? Take it to joeuser or something.

People aren't going to just go to Apple because they have some cool widgets. Well, maybe some will but I doubt they will in mass numbers. Don't take it so personally. No one's out to get you except maybe Tim the OS/2 Guy.

Chill out, dude...
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You know, for a bunch of people who STOLE Apple's dock, you sure are upset about them introducing something that works like your Desktop X (more like Desktop suX, with it's current stability). And don't even bother trying to argue that ObjectDock has any originality. It looks the same, it works the same, and just because you are going to add some features which Apples dock doesnt have, doesn't erase the fact that it's a complete copy. What goes around comes around fellows... You think you're pissed about Apple questionably using ideas from Desktop X? I'm sure they were 3 times as pissed when you unarguably STOLE their dock.
Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And might I add that Apple's Redmond comment is completely true. Just because it's POSSIBLE to integrate Tiger features into Windows with programs like Stardocks, doesn't mean that Apple can't promote itself for being the first to actually integrate these features into it's OS out of the box! CD creation software and firewalls existed when Microsoft introduced Windows XP. But they still made a big hype about integrating them without having to download 20 programs! And if you want an example closer to home, the same was true about the hype they started about integrated Windows skins.
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Indeed, and Microsoft gets highly criticised when they introduce new "standard" features with Windows that used to require a third party product. They got sued left and right for doing that.  So when Microsoft does it, it's "monopoly" and "unfair business practice" but when Apple does it it's "Oh wow! They are so innovative because they steal others ideas and integrate it all right out of the box! So cool!"
?? Something's not right...