Frogboy Frogboy

Apple: Glass houses alert!

Apple: Glass houses alert!

For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...

On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:

Plus this cute graphic:

Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:

  • Built in good searching
  • iChat AV (video chatting)
  • Dashboard
  • RSS support built into Safari (web browser)

On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this.  For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.

Let's take a close look at this:

Spotlight

Spotlight searching is quite impressive.  But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation.  Come on.  Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.

iChat AV

iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.

But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Clock

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience.  And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.

And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.

DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.

There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.

But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that.  One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place.  Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing.  Please. 

That is such an incredibly weak argument.  Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer. 

Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).

That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population). 

And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past.  One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!". 

And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything.  I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.

The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).

Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others. 

And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone.  If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.

Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system.  What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker.  That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked. 

Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO.  The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right.  And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.

No one likes a hypocrite.  Apple is a very innovative company.  But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs. 

update:  I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us.  It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.

So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.

And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.

Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.

33,138 views 87 replies
Reply #51 Top
It's a nice piece, concidering your a windows user. However, show me a MS piece of software that does any of these things? No, that's cause great people all over the world make software, unfortunatly they chose to make most to Windows.
The fact that Apple "complain" about windows users/software ripping off their ideas, might have something to do with for example a little thing called "ObjectDock"?
And no, I'm not a mac user. The fact of the matter is, this site should be the last to post a story like that, concidering they mainly supply skins/icons for programs that emulate the Mac or Linux look, or in other ways hide the hideousness of the OS.
And I'd go for it PixelCargo, it's a nice system. Although, it's not Mandrake but the windowmanager that looks nice They are really far ahead, and in my opinion very much ready for desktop users.
Reply #52 Top
Concerning the Redmond posters at WWDC, I think they're funny. When Windows 95 came out, the OS/2 community made fun of Redmond for their "innovation" so why not Apple. It's all in good fun and if you personally get offended by it, please do us all a favor and get a life. You don't help any side of the argument.

Brad, I've been reading your posts since FidoNET. You can come across as harsh without realizing it (maybe you do..) so your use of "zealot" is unnecessary and slightly offensive. Yes, there are zealots out there but they exist in all OS circles. I recall you calling Windows users zealots a long time ago when you were advocating OS/2. The term zealot has a negative connotation these days so your classification of Mac users as "zealots" just sounds like a marketing technique.

Now, where's my Corporate Machine...
Reply #53 Top

Gizzo: If Apple users are going to argue that Dashboard isn't a copy off of Konfabulator but rather based on something from long ago (Desk Accessories) then it is just as legitimate to say that ObjectDock is based on Stardock Tab Launchpad from long ago that had the same functionality.


Regarding the word "Zealot": I don't post the emails I get but using the term zealot to describe some of the Mac users out there is being very generous I think. I get emails, see comments, etc. from Mac users who constantly complain about third parties stealing Apple's ideas.  Which is fine until they start defending Apple when it does the same thing.  In computing, zealot isn't generally considered that offensive.  I was, after all, an OS/2 zealot.

Reply #55 Top
Tab LaunchPad = System 7 Launcher.
http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/mac_troubleshooter/pic_CP_launcher.html

System 7 was released in 1991. Launcher is prior art in my opinion.
http://www.mac512.com/system.htm

This whole argument is stupid. The fact is with Tiger I get a lot of this stuff MS is working on long beforehand and in typical Apple fashion. I don't care about Dashboard or even iChat. Spotlight rules and I would bet that even MS won't do it this well in 2006 (if lucky). Smart Folders are by far the coolest things short of application bundles. (where is StarDock when you need them.)
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

Oh, and this is a good read on the Dashboard issue.
http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator

Okay, now back to reality...
Reply #56 Top
Frogboy just comes off as Mr Salesman while macrobaye the Mac Elitist. Either way I hate them both because of it. I have both a pc and mac and since macrobaye belongs to none of the products I purchase what he says doesn't matter but each time I hear Frogboy "come up to talk to me like a car salesman" I dislike Stardock because of it. There isn't a way to please everyone I guess.
Reply #57 Top
thank you, all, for reminding me why i loethe to hold discussion with other human beings.

i don't care what options you put into OSX because it's still OSX, and i still don't like the way it works. i don't care what applications you steal, what 'innovative' feature you create, or what color you make your interface. it still launches programs the same way, it still interacts with other computers the same way, and it is still not comfortable to me. but that is only me. you won't hear me attack your devision, likewise you shouldn't give a damn about the reasons i use MY operating system.

the redmond remarks are REDICULOUS. they are flamming, they are blantent accusations for the past, present, and future, and they are little more than INTIMIDATION for the poor, ignorant people who are fence-sitting on a new computer. they are in my opinion the culmination of every apple user's snyde rettoric and baseless, objective post in the midst of claiming they are not 'zealots'. for me, seeing those big banners sealed the image that every apple user believes "we are better than you and if you're not on apple, you're just a toy".

all companies use the same tactics. developers in all of these companys know each other on some degree, and they know each other's plans on some degree. they are all going to be influenced by each other, and by what the consumer finds useful. who gives a damn what your OS is becuase they ALL DO THE SAME THINGS in some way or another. they all run certain programs better, they all have ups and downs in stability and security. they all rip of their 'innovations' from other people, buy out other companies to integrate them into their collective whole, sue people who challenge them, and try to out market each other. further more, they all do the little things differently that they do becuaes they have a REASON to. windows is catered to a certain type of person, as is mac. but don't stand on a soap box and try to make the claim that you are the supreme leader of the computer world, and don't bitch about other people who challange that claim.

the mac/pc debate isn't fun anymore. it always turns into a fight. when a friend (and all of my friends use macs) tries to tell me i'm in a lesser world for what eq i use, i walk away. i built my computer from the ground up, and customized it to do exactly what i want it to do. no one can tell me what it can or can't do because only I know. and if it didn't do what i wanted it to do, i'd change it. this is what wincustomize is all about. making something work and look the way WE want it to - for WINDOWS.

we don't need your apple opinions and history. this is a place for the customization of windows. if we're fools then let us relish in our ignorance. just leave us the hell alone.

by the way, macrobaye. i find it humorous how steadfast you were in challanging frogboy and how quickly you pulled the plug, to say 'lets all get along, to each his own.'. i hold your designs in high regard, as well as your place in this community. but keep apple outside of these walls, and so will we. that's the only way we're ever going to hear the end of this silly game.

my new left-wing movement is 'wincustomize for windows'. if you want to say 'M$' and 'Windoze' then do it in another forum while you chew on your applecore. just don't choke on the seeds.

>
Reply #58 Top
Object Dock is ripped version of Mac OS dock.

DesktopX team haven't invented idea of widgets.

Dashboard is ripped version of Kobfabulator.

These 3 things are clear for me.

Sure, it was a rip but still windows companies are ripping (and rather downgrading/complicating) from Apple much more than Apple from other companies. It is a shame on all that companies (both Windows and Mac ones) using that tactics to sell their products. But let's be honest, when a big company see a good opportunity to increase sales they take it. It is bad for little people but good for big companies.

Why Konfabulator was ripped? Because it was very popular and unpatented. Why it didn't have patent?
Because it made nothing new, just using old things in better graphics. I am sure Apple will be smarter and patent dashboard.
You can ask: can they do that if Konfabulator didn't? Sure because Apple created something enough original that it can be patented. I have seen many widgets, applets and so on but they didn't use idea of appearing for one key and behaving the way Apple's do. They have a bit different purposes.

It is all sad but true. It should be a warning for all us developers/graphics/writers. We should carefully care about our patents and copyrights or we will sink forever.

I use both PCs and Macs if anybody is interested

Regards
Milo

Reply #59 Top

Milo: No one would have a problem with Apple ripping Konfabulator if Apple didn't set themselves up as holier than thou. 


Clearly ObjectDock (the free one) was heavily influenced by the Mac dock.  The difference is, I'm perfectly willing to say that because denying that influence would be disengenous.


But Apple (Steve Jobs in particular) and some of the Mac advocates have been very vocal in saying that Dashboard wasn't influenced by Konfabulator but instead use all sorts of crazy prior art. And as rkadowns demonstrates correclty above, if you play the prior art game, things can get totally ridiculous.

Reply #60 Top
i am happy that you agree and i agree with you too

Yes, dashboard was influenced by Konfabulator and Apple should say it. Steve used some bad politics and showed dark side of him. Bad. However, Arlo didn't invent anything new so why Apple should give credits precisely to Konfabulator not for example to DesktopX? Only because Konfabulator is also available for OS X and desktopX not? Maybe all three companies should give credits to earlier applications?

It is a bigger topic that some people think but hey, let's wait for final version of Tiger and also Longhorn

Milo
Reply #61 Top
"And as rkadowns demonstrates correclty above, if you play the prior art game, things can get totally ridiculous."

Exactly, and is why I think that by you bringing up this topic is so ridiculous. You can't have it both ways. You can't complain that Apple ripped from Konfab or MS and then say it's okay that you ripped from the Apple Dock. These stupid banners Apple presented as WWDC is just an attempt at humor. Everybody knows that the copying goes both ways between Redmond and Cupertino. Some will say more so one way than the other, but does it really matter? End the end we all get a piece of the pie.

As far as I am concerned, both Konfab and Dashboard are ripoffs of desktop accessories. But can Apple steal from themselves?

I would be interested if stickies are included with Tiger as they have been in Mac OS for ages.

By-the-way, I don't appreciate the sneaky approach you took to insult me, however I'm happy you got my point. Original ideas are very rare these days. There isn't an original idea in Object Desktop, yet I use it because I believe it's the best product at what it does.
Reply #62 Top
Without reading all the comments posted here. This is my view of the whole thing.

Mac is amasing when it comes down to integrating things directly into their OS + its hardware manufacturer so stability issues are less common then with pCz.

But they are absolute rip-off!!!

I mean for half a price I can get more powerfull machine that runs same and better software (not to mention games!!!) And I can log on to win customise / stardock and get my desktop looking funkier then any bloody mac out there!

CONCLUSION - nothing against Mac at all but for me to swich from one platform to another I need to be able to buy top of the range G5 for under £1000 (in UK) and I need to run revolutionary (not same) software on it that will do job better and faster then anything else on PC.

SIMPLE AS THAT!!!
Reply #63 Top
Funny... the reason why M$ closed the door to open betas of Longhorn is because Apple completely ripped off the "Exposé" feature and claimed that M$ was copying them. Thanks Apple, by you claiming that you are the inventors of all that is cool, you are really hindering innovation and not allowing the end user to be involved the creative process. Flippin' morons.

P.S. I own a G5 and I use Macs quite often... I am by no means an Apple hater. I just think that they take this "I invented this" thing way too far. When Apple starts to actually listen to their customers and start adding features that people want rather than what they "think" users want, then, and only then, will they be a decent software company.
Reply #64 Top
I don't think it's really right to say the Miscrosoft ripped of the Mac when making Windows. Charles Simonyi started working at MS before Bill Gates saw the Mac demo and Charles Simonyi worked for Xerox Park. So to be perfectly fair both MS and Apple ripped off Xerox and Apple can't make any claim otherwise.
Reply #65 Top
reply to macrobaye,

> It looks like Apple's dock, to the pixel. Now you can congratulate your developers for making a perfect copy,
> or you can admit that you took the look/design/fuction of Apple's dock and turned it into software for the PC,
> that you currently make money off of.

incorrect. we make 0 dollars off ObjectDock. Actually, the project has been in works as a technology demo as far back as 1999. I personally have spent months and months of my life working away on it just for the sake of bringing over the technology which was originally said to be "impossible" to do on a PC, so that people could enjoy it. ObjectDock's zoomable bit and imitated features will never ever be used for profit.

As for ObjectDock Plus, it's all sort of advanced functionality and original features we put in that integrates with the free system that users will pay for.
Reply #66 Top
Don't forget the whole concept of "windows " as presented by Microsoft was a blatant rip-off as well . I think it's about time the Apple vs. Microsoft debate ended . I personally think that both OSX and Windows have equal value and it's sad this debate keeps going on .As for the marketing tactics : both companies always base their strategy on the "we are better than the others " - marketing concept . Have done so for years , so it comes as no surprise Apple used this same tactic yet again .
I'm pretty sure Microsoft will do the same with the launch of their new Windows-version ( I'm already wondering how many "innovations" will be rip-offs in that one )

Reply #67 Top
Frogboy said:
"JTFolden, one reason I'm bringing this up loudly because mark my words, as soon as Mac users generally have Dashboard they're going to start retroactiving claiming that programs like DesktopX or Samurize stole their ideas from it. "

That's probably true... but it's not unique to Mac users... Users of every OS do this... Windows, Mac, Linux, Be, etc, etc.

...What you're doing now isn't doing anything to change that. You're just creating a new fuss prior to the one to come.
Reply #68 Top
"Funny... the reason why M$ closed the door to open betas of Longhorn is because Apple completely ripped off the "Exposé" feature and claimed that M$ was copying them."

Please provide your source. I am actually quite interested.

I believe Microsoft's Aero technology is equivalent to Quartz. Being that Expose is possible in it's present form due to the existence of Quartz, I don't see how Apple ripped a potential use for Quartz from MS when MS doesn't even have a shipping technology to do the same. MS can talk all day about how a technology can be used, but Apple has already done it. That suggests to me that in fact Apple had already done the homework and possibly were not ripping from MS. I'm sure there was talk by someone back in the day before automobiles about creating a device with 4 wheels and an engine to replace the horse but did nothing with it. Does that make Henry Ford an idea thief?

All this hoopla can also be said about Sun and their Java Desktop. Did sun rip Apple? In my opinion no. The fact that 3 major players are moving to 3D powered desktops indicates a trend in technology, not necessarily a lack of innovation. These 3D interfaces naturally lend themselves to the types of tricks that Konfab have credited themselves to have invented. In all actuality it was the innovation in the interface that allowed for products like Konfabulator to exist as it does. All Konfab did was take an established idea in desktop accessories and apply them differently. Who is to say that Apple hadn't already had this method on the drawingboard long before Konfab became popular? As far as we know, Apple kept Dashboard on the stove to simmer a while. They could have released it whit Jag or Cheetah, but why not keep it around for Tiger to give people that little added incentive to purchase Tiger? Don't want to blow your wad all at once you know. I could be wrong, however I do not believe that Apple would create a technology like Quartz and not have any idea as to how to use it.

Take Spotlight for example. Advanced searching of your computer is not a new and novel idea. Does it need improved? Sure, and that is why Apple has made a big deal out of this. Not because they invented the searchable computer, but because they have solved a major problem. MS wants to do the same thing and improve searching. The problem is that MS has to reinvent the wheel and create a file system such as WinFS that does a lot of what HFS+ and it's metadata already does. Hence the reason why Apple will have advance searching in the public in 6 months and MS will have it out sometime in the next decade. Did Apple copy MS or did MS copy Apple? After all, Apple had the all pieces of the puzzle already. Look up the history of Copeland. This concept is nothing new to Apple, they are only just now getting to it being that Apple was in a world of hurt for a long while before Jobs returned. Do you think Apple hired the engineer that wrote the file system for BeOS to run mail? With him and the benefits of HFS already in place, it didn't take nearly as much to make Spotlight happen as opposed to what MS has to do.

All in all, Apple was poking fun at Redmond. To take it seriously is a mistake in my opinion. Just watch, MS will strike back again sooner or later. Maybe in 2006 in which case Apple will return with salvos of their own.
Reply #69 Top
http://daringfireball.net/

Might consider reading some of the extremely well written articles there regarding Konfab and Dashboard and Desk Accessories.
Reply #71 Top
>> Please provide your source. I am actually quite interested.

I used to visit a Windows XP technology site that was written by Paul Thurrott who had early builds of Longhorn http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_alpha.asp . He has alpha screens of some of the Longhorn technology and stated that the Expose was a blatent rip and said that M$ was stopping all Alpha build and only allowing certain testers to use the new stuff because of what Apple did. (This was all way before Panther was released).

M$ has since retooled the feature so that it functions a little differently.. according to Paul Thurrott.
Reply #72 Top
Cool. This page shows screenshots of Longhorn and their Expose. They claim MS ripped Apple or Sun, not that I care.

http://www.apple-x.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=923

If this is MS's Expose, it's pretty cool, but not as useful. It just proves my opinion though. That these GUI technologies (Quartz, Aero, Looking Glass) are only setting the stage for parties like Stardock to take advantage of them, even if the ideas themselves are nothing more than new twists on old ideas which will lead us back to this topic. Who ripped who.
Reply #73 Top

rkadowns wrote: "You can't complain that Apple ripped from Konfab or MS and then say it's okay that you ripped from the Apple Dock"


But there's a key difference. I don't run around claiming that everyone rips us off.  When Microsoft copied WindowBlinds features to a large extent and put them in Whistler (XP) I didn't run around screaming about it. I didn't even write a single article complaining in fact.  Why? Because it's Microsoft. They make no bones about what they do.


But Apple, by contrast, makes a big stink about how innovative THEY are and how everyone else steals from them.  They set themselves up on a high horse. And here they're blatantly ripping off Konfabulator even as they ridicule Microsoft for stealing their ideas.


If I put on the ObjectDock page "Apple start your photocopiers" THEN it would be hypocritical. 

Reply #74 Top
Fact is Apple is no more innovative than Microsoft. Like Microsoft often does, Apple typically takes an existing idea and makes something even better out of it. OSX is an example, Safari is another, that 3D logon changer is another, even the infamous dock they didn't invent although they made it quite cool. The new finder is oh so similar to Windows Explorer. Spotlight they are bringing in in a hurry cause they know that Longhorn will have extraordinary search abilities. Oh and don't get me wrong, Microsoft Took others ideas just as much I won't deny it. But what pisses me off is hearing Apple complain all the time that they are being ripped. Come on, this is technology. Everybody starts from somebody else's ideas and build on it. Nobody needs to reinvent a new wheel everytime. Take the wheel, build on it and make something better with it. That's what Apple does, that's what Microsoft does, that's what just about every software developer in the industry does.
And again, this is not about which OS is better. I honestly think that Jaguar is awsome, but I also can't wait to see Longhorn in action. Looks like it's going to be something else too. But I really HATE Apple the company. They behave like a brat baby. They cry cry cry all the time "Mommy Billy took my toy!" but THUMP! don't hesitate to stab in the back as soon as mommy isn't looking.
Reply #75 Top
iChat AV looks like a rape and pillage of Browse3D Internet Browser v 2.5.. I bet it even does fly in and out for chat windows and such just like Browse3D... hehe

and Browser3D has been out for a while now ...

Not saying they did that, but hell, Browse3D did it first

no seriously though, if no one else could make wheels round after the first person did it, all our cars would go BANG BANG BANG driving down the road on flat sided geometric shapes.

hehe