San Chonino posts:

Firstly, I believe God created Adam and Eve with sanctifying grace, certain perternatural gifts as freedom of pain and death, as well a high degree of intelligence and free will. It was God's will that man's destiny should be in his own hands. These gifts offered freely were provided man make correct use of his mind and will by obedience to God's command. God told threatened them with death if they disobeyed so they knew the terrible consequences if they disobeyed.

They were given everything in their favor including all the perfections of grace to succeed and remain loyal to God. In this sense, they certainly weren't MEANT to fall.

Secondly, your conclusion is erroneous becasue it's based on an incorrect presentation of the case. God didn't mean man to fall rather He gave man's destiny in his own keeping and he must attain that destiny by the virtue of God and the practice of virtue. There could be no just reward for a service of God which costs us nothing, and virtue is exercised in the midst of temptation. There is no particular virtue in being good when there is no inducement to be otherwise. The lesson we must take from the fall of Adam and Eve is towfold... that of God's Infinite justice and mercy as well as it is quite just of God to leave them/us with the opportunity of practicing true virtue in the midst of temptation, as it was merciful that forgiveness should be available for failures of which we fully repent.

God knew that they need not sin, and that His knowledge of what would eventuate did not cause or mean for them to sin.

JYTHIER POSTS:

I think your on to something here. There are many lessons to be taken from the Fall. We learn that God is Good, Just, about the evil, consequences and penalities of sin...and God's Infinite Mercy by His first promise of the Messias. God punishes sinful man in mercy, and imposes temporal punishments on him so as to save his soul and make him eternally happy.

We parents should take this lesson and apply it to our kids...just as Adam and Eve remained in control of their own destinies and they were fully responsible for their choice... God in His Mercy did grant them forgiveness of their sin, (Wisdom 10:2). But mercy itself demanded that this should be only after they had learned humility from the condequent miseries. Emotional pity and sentiment often lead us to mistake weakness for mercy. Parents who say they are too merciful to punish wrongdoing in their children are not really merciful to them at all. They are too weak to do their duty and how cruel they have really been is evident from the miserable and terribly spoiled characters of those children throughout their lives later on.





God knows what is best for the welfare of human souls, whatever their circumstances.

JYTHIER POSTS:

Sorry, you've come to the wrong conclusion.


God created the angels as pure spirits with gifts that were superior to all other created beings. Lucifer was the most beautiful, etc. They have sublime understanding, wisdom, and knowledge. God will not have any forced service and so He gave the angels the gift of free will by which they were able to choose between good and evil and could freely side with God or against Him.

When a portion of the angels made bad use of their freedom and out of pure malice and pride rebelled against God, they lost sanctifying grace, were cast into Hell, their wills are perverted and bad.

So, God didn't create evil...and He didn't create the devil.....God created all the angels including LUcifer good by nature but they became bad through their own fault.

Evil is not working together to make the world a better place.

Humans are born evil. Most stay that way.

(Jesus. Forums are seriously addictive.)

cscoles, that is exactly my opinion.

So babies are born evil?

Or are they born innocent and pure and learn evil?

Kids do not learn to get what they want. They do, however, have to develop the ability to understand the needs of others.

Ah, that's the least of it. Evil is sin and sin is an offense against God and His laws.

What is sin? My dictionary has it that sin is a breaking of the law of God on purpose. St.Thomas Aquinas describes sin in Latin, aversio a Deo ---a turning away from God. What makes this turning away from God sinful is the fact that the one who makes that tragic move is himself responsible for it. It's not something that just happens to him...he makes it happen. He knows what he's doing and he wills what he is doing. He is, then, in the aftermath, guilty.


Sin may be Original or Actual(personal)and Actual Sin may be mortal or venial.
The sin Adam commmitted was the deliberate sin of pride Gen. 3:22 which consisted in a formal disobedience and the express law of probation.

Although set by God in a state of rectitide, first Eve, enticed by the evil one, then Adam, abused their freedom. They lifted themselves up against God and sought to attain their goal apart from Him...and into this world entered sin. When Adam sinned, as the father of the human race, he plunged us into a state of guilt. The point is simple and tragic---that man's guilt has distorted all his relationships, with God, with each other and with the earth.

Genesis 4-11 depicts the escalation of sin in the world, rippling out from Adam's OS. Cain murders his brother Abel, and sin reaches such proportion that God floods the earth---a symbol of chaos and destruction that sin brought to Creation. Genesis 11 tells us how human folly reaches it's peak, and man tries once again to become God's equal by building a tower reaching up to the Heavens. The rejection of God spills over into man's rejection of his fellow man. There is now division and complete lack of communication between nations.

You said humans are born evil....are babies evil?

There is no sin that has ever been that has not increased suffering in the world. Thus, sin is that which creates unnecessary suffering.

well, i don't think that can be said of a baby before the baby actually performs an evil act. but i guarantee that it will, given the time.

come on. don't play games. babies are evil because the innate human nature that must be overcome through understanding leads them to do selfish things

Okay, now this is more like it.

Saying humans are born evil is incorrect because God does not create evil humans. They do in fact become sinners, some sooner rather than later. Usually with children, they are held responsible for their sins at what we call "the age of reason" that's when their conscience is formed and they can acknowledge their free will actions.

Yes, babies are born evil.

The real deal here is, God is good. God created everything good. Evil is not a thing of itself that was created, but the lack of good.

Babies are born with a lack of good, just like the rest of us. They have to learn good.

So you noticed?   

Fine, whatever. So nit-picky.

Yep!

It's better to say that babies are born neuteral.

There is no neutral.

A lot of people think there is a neutral. They're wrong. Every second they're either good, or not good. There is no middle ground. There is no partially good. That's why you can't work your way into heaven - people are not good by nature.

Oi...sometimes I don't get you moral absolutists. *sighs* It's hard enough to try and point out that gray, or neutral does exist...in the real world.

Night all.

gray? nah. unless you mean an action that has no consequences for the world, good or bad. i just meant that babies hadn't done anything, so whose to judge? i guess you could call them good by the "innocent until proven guilty" rule. but to be good you have to do something good just like to be evil you must act it.

Are acts judged "good" or "evil" based solely on the intention of the actor?

 

 

I rather agree with this.  But it's got a few potholes.  If you claim sole knowledge of the definition of what makes the world a better place, you do so at the expense of others who think *they* know what makes the world a better place.  And that isn't "working together."  So what is the missing element?  Tolerance of differences.

 

In order for all to work together to make the world a better place, you can't write off an entire group of people who might have different ideas than you do (ubiquitous 'you') - that's the exact definition of not working together.  This is the struggle I see between groups that hold different philosophies today.

 

Let's suppose someone agrees with that statement so I can proceed with the logic.  In order for groups to have tolerance of each other's ideas - for the purpose of "working together to make the world a better place" - they will have to suspend their beliefs as being critical to the work.  All beliefs without objective (testable and verifiable) evidence are subjective.  Therefore, governing actions for making the world a better place based on any religious or philosophical untestable and unverifiable idea is "evil" by your definition, because it sacrifices the equally subjective, untestable, unverifiable ideas of another group for the sake of your own.

 

It is not easy, as a Christian or a Muslim, for example, to suspend the rules of "rightness" that the Bible/Quran teaches.  These forums (and do I need mention the entire world?) are full of intolerance of differing ideas, and I infer that the people that are intolerant would be very satisfied if everyone would change to their way of thinking.  This is not working together.  It is therefore "evil" (by the above definition which the OP agrees with.)

 

I often think that people don't believe we can work together unless we all believe the same thing first, and so the current push is to eradicate all other beliefs first, and then we can "work together."  In the same way that Jesus points out that if you expect a gift in return for giving a gift, then you haven't really given a gift in the first place, this argument is fallacious.  In other words, it takes no special moral fiber to be tolerant of people who agree with you hook, line, and sinker.  It is far more noble and giving to express tolerance of those with whom you disagree.  Thus, tolerance of people who have different beliefs is integral to "working together" and anything else is "evil."

Well, I think I implied later on that evil is acting selfishly in a way that causes unnesessary suffering. The acting selfishly part takes care of intent, and the suffering part takes care of the consequence. Sure, I know that would be hard to quantify. But I think in most cases we could figure it out.

Just wanted to let you know, I'm evil guys. Insanely evil. It's inherent.

~Zoo

Evil is anything done outside of God's laws. I view this with a secular reasoning, though, as I believe that it has unintended side effects that hurt God, not it being evil for evil.

Absolute good and evil is only made absolute because God is absolute, and created the moral code to his standards for a reason. Good is obedience to Him, evil is disobedience. There is no room for neutral ground. You are either with Him, or against Him.