On Evil

Well shoot cuz, I'm akin to the devil then, because I'm walking away from your view of God.

Man isn't born evil. Sorry, but I don't buy that load of bollocks. I find it a tad insulting, because you know what? I'm not evil. I've dealt with "evil," as you wold put it, in the form of an completely abusive step father. There is no way, in heaven or hell that I am evil. Pure bollocks.

 

So everything is evil, eh? Your socks, your hair, the tree in your front yard? Sorry, but evil is not inherent in everything. To say that such, is (in my opinion) to not have a grip on the concept of neutral objects. A table, a chair, a tree, a bush, they're not on the same level as we are. So how can they be evil? If they were created for us, then how can they be evil, they're tools, a means of surviving.

 

 

This is Martin Luther's dark and desolate idea...he said no matter what that man can't overcome his sinfulness and that sin itself is a necessity.   

We are created in the image and likeness of God..so therefore, we can't be born evil.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought you believed in the sin nature?

I do. We are flawed pictures of God. Thank Eve for that.

Do you believe that God expected man to live like dumb, naked children in the Garden forever?

Honestly, yes, without the dumb part. They were perfectly smart, just knew nothing of sin.

Lula posts:

I'm not sure what you mean by sin nature.

I believe we are all born with the guilt and stain of original sin on our soul which we inherit from Adam and Eve. That's why Baptism is so important and why just before Christ ascended into Heaven, He gave His authority to His disciples and the command to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.. until the end of the world" St.Matt. 28:18-20.

To Catholics, Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, adopted children of God, heirs to Heaven and members of the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church.

I also believe in actual sin (mortal and venial) which we ourselves commit. Mortal sin is grevious sin against God which deprives the soul of supernatural life and deserves Hell.
Mortal sin is evil and that's why I said we are not born with mortal sin.

Eh, it's always the women that screw things up for the rest of us. :NOTSURE: 

~Zoo

Look back at that again.

Read it again.

Think about it.

...

Do you realize how much you just cheapened the role of Jesus Christ?

You just made him some back-up plan, somebody's Plan B.

It's like imagining God saying, "Oh crap, Satan totally just pulled the rug out from under me. Guess we'd better got that whole 'savior' route after all . . ."

You're giving Satan way too much credit and making God out to be kind of an imbecile.

OF COURSE Man was supposed to fall. OF COURSE HE WAS.

Thank God Eve took a bite from that fruit. Thank God Adam was smart enough to realize he should, too.

"Adam fell that man might be, and men are, that they might have joy."

I agree.

 

 

Is that why some people walk around naked, claiming that that is what G-d wanted?

Your religion is weird.

 

Not entirely. Some people are just a litle touched. Just a little. Or a lot.

Second, @ SC: No, Man was not supposed to fall, yes, Jesus was a backup plan. God really didn't wanna lose His Son, did He?

He didn't lose his son. Or do you believe that Jesus suddenly ceased to exist once he died? Because that seems to fly in the face of everything Christianity teaches.

If you believe Man was not meant to fall, that means Satan won and God lost. Thus, following that (erroneous, IMO) train of thought, you ought to be worshiping the being that even snookered God himself - Satan.

Do you see where this leads? Your belief means Satan actually screwed up the plan of God. That makes God's plan pretty not perfect.

Man was supposed to fall. He fell, just like he was supposed to. Satan didn't win, he just played his part in the essential Fall of Man.

Simple as that.

I think speculation into this point makes my head hurt.

I'm torn between thinking that God left it up to us and the reality that anyone it was left up to would have fallen, too. It's difficult to really know how this goes. I think there is an 'if' there. There were two different stories to be written - one without a fall, one with a fall.

While the non-fall plan would have been less spectacular, it would have been rewarding of its own accord - man resists the first temptation, chooses God and obedience, and lives forever in paradise with God.

The plan with the fall, we all know. Jesus comes to save us, and lays down his own life for us.

But then I look at the Bible, and Jesus said that there is no greater love than to lay down your life for your friends. Because we were not happy to be taken care of forever, our needs perpetually met and always at rest, that love was apparently not enough to win us - so God needed to show a better love to us. The best love.

I think God wanted that from the start.

I have to say, SanCho makes some interesting points.

~Zoo

I always thought it would be interesting to find out that the devil was the one that really gave us free will, and that is what screwed up the whole deal.

Free will created evil. If it wasn't for free will, there would be no devil to give it to us. But free will demands choices, and some of those choices are going to be between good and evil. People often choose wrong. Satan chose wrong.

Evil has always been in the world, due to Satan. Free will just gave man what he needed to fall to evil.

So... Satan has free will? God gave it to him? Free will creates evil? So god created evil?

Logic!

~Zoo

Well, I am assuming a commutative trait for creation/responsibility, which could be flawed. Some would say their god created all things, which would mean it can't really be commutative since there is only one thing that creates. Of course, that would imply this god created evil and suffering too. I guess you just can't have it both ways.

Oops, replace commutative with transitive.

San Chonino posts:

I agree. God created Adam and Eve in a state of grace giving them the highest of perfections  in every way, including intelligence.  They also knew nothing of sin up until the time they disobeyed God and ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

When they sinned, they fell from this state of supernatural wealth...something we would have inherited had they not sinned....the only way we can properly understand the conditions of the human race is to understand original sin and what it took from them and how that affects us when we are born.   

Reason points always in the direction of an original and inherited moral catastrophe. Nature does not know paradox, yet we have the human paradox. We see inherent in man egotism, pride, covetnousness, and iniquity. In honesty, we can't deny sin in ourself. Man has fallen from his true place and can't recover it. What is good in him is from his Creator and what is bad is the unhappy effect of his own fall into sin.

Even though original sin was theirs alone their sin injured not only themselves, but their prosperity. Their supernatural gifts were given to them not for themselves alone, but for all those who were to come after them. If Adam and Eve had preserved these free gifts their children would have inherited them and would have come into the world in the state of supernatural grace.

But they sinned and the consequneces of their sin were/are very grave...being no longer in the state of grace, their fallen nature has passed down to their children so that all mankind are born with original sin.

The punishment of Adam and Eve reveals to us the infinite justice of God. Their sin is the sin of the whole human race and the evil consequences of their sin is passed down to all mankind. We are by birth "children of wrath". Eph. 2:3.

Sin is the greatest of all evils for all the other evils came into the world by sin. Adam and Eve having sinned through pride, were humbled by the degrading sentence: "Dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return."

San CHonino,

You are greatly mistaken if you think the sin of Adam and Eve was supposed to happen in order to produce the Atonement.

Here you are saying the sin of our first parents was NECESSARY when it clearly wasn't; rather their sin of disobedience was their own moral evil choice...after they sinned, God justly punished all involved, including satan...It's all in Genesis if you care to read it.

In His Infinite Mercy, God produced the Atonement in order to repair the sin of our first parents and of all subsequent generations by promising a Redeemer...again, this is all in Genesis.

Before Almighty God drove them out of Paradise and into the misery of the world, He promised them a Redeemer. They had condemned themselves by their sin and this thought would have driven them to utter despair had not God in His infinite mercy awakened in their hearts the hope of a coming Savior.

The curse pronounced on satan contained a consolation for fallen man. Genesis 3:15, I will put enmities between thee and the woman,..." Here, God told Adam and Eve that sin, which comes of the world, of the flesh and by the devil, would be overcome some day and that the gates of the Heaven would be opened to them.

From this moment, Adam and Eve were not eternally lost and they were not sent straight to Hell as did the fallen angels. They were not hardened in sin, but confessed their guilt and repented of it. They received pardon on account of their belief in the future Savior and on account of their repentence.

SAN CHONINO POSTS:

I can't find this anywhere...what is the Book, chapter and verse?