No, this cannot be said.. becasue this implies we can't do anything about it...that men have no fair moral choice; that their weak temperment or evil environment make their evilness (wickedness) inevitable. This simply is untrue.  

rathen than man himself, it's his misuse of his free will that is evil. The freedom of will that we possess necessarily involves the possibility of sin. In this sense, we by our very existence involve evil.

God takes into account every possible factor that might palliate a man's guilt and He give all sufficient grace to conquer sin in every temptation. No one is ever forced to sin (evil) is what I'm getting at. He must account at the judgment only for his free, deliberate evil deeds.

The value of our struggle for Heaven is the real purpose of God's permission of evil. In the solidarity of Christ's Mystical Body, in union with Christ's Infinite merits, we may by the grace of God, make light of trials of sufferings of this life, and conquer, as Christ did, the power of Satan and his host of evil.

  

To be perfectly blunt KFC/Lula, all I get from you guys when you're asked a question is repetitive rhetoric. It's like listening to a monotonous droning from a collective. Yes, you're entitled to believe whatever fancies you, but to say:



Where is the logic? Where is the fact? Where is the solid proof? You say the Bible, but yet most of it must be taken on faith, not fact. You can't prove that there is one way. The belief in your God is all faith.

I just, I find it hard to hear what you say, or believe it (let alone wrap it around my head), because it's just based on a little book, and hearsay/word of mouth. I honestly don't see any logic to it, and keep coming to the conclusion that there are a lot of holes in Christianity (and other faiths), and your God. At least in your version.

But, like I said, you've got every right to believe what you want to.

(And this comes from someone who does believe in something greater than himself. So I'm no Atheist devil.

A good example of your air, so to speak, whenever I read debates you are involved in (concerning your God, etc...), is from this website right here here.

Heh, heh. It's cute how they lump things together and lure you down the rabbit hole using half truths and sketchy wording. When you click on the "wrong" answer it lays a guilt trip on you.

"The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything."

Talk about your logical fallacy. If He didn't exist we couldn't prove it, so He obviously exists because we can't prove that He doesn't exist and that proves God exists. Or something...

That's almost as amusing as the banana argument.

And people wonder why we laugh...

~Zoo

The historical Muhammed was not a pagan but an Ishmaeli. He believed what the Jews believed.

He later adopted the view the Jesus and he himself were prophets, something Jews disagree with.

He didn't "deny" the "incarnation of Christ as the saviour of all mankind", but he re-affirmed it. He merely didn't believe that Jesus was the "son of G-d" and died on the cross.

You have got your religions mixed up. It's the Jews who don't believe (or as you would say "deny") that Jesus was a saviour.

 

 

This discussion's gone far afield from the original topic, but I have to dispute your point here, Leauki. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but I'm pretty sure that your use of the term "saviour" and lulapilgrim, KFC, and erathoniel's use are wholly different.

While I think you had discussed previously (and I had been aware) that Islam views Jesus Christ as a prophet of truth but not the only true prophet, this is clearly not the same as accepting the divinity of Jesus Christ, which I believe is inherent in the term "saviour" as used by the Christian folks listed above.

 

 

Um, no offense, but I find this response and erathoniels' to be trivializing my point.

Does questioning my personal beliefs and actions somehow explain the misery of those suffering through food shortages in Egypt who are struggling to find a small amount of bread or rice to feed themselves and their families today?

I feel as though these answers only validate my sardonic comment earlier: are we not praying hard enough for God to intervene?

I used "saviour" in the simple sense of the word. Muslims do not believe in a divinity of Jesus. Islam do believe, however, that Jesus, the prophet, was supposed to give humanity (especially Jews) the gospel and "save" them. Islam also believes that Jesus will eventually return and "save" humanity.

So, yes, Muslims do see Jesus as a _saviour_, just not an incarnation of G-d. (However they do believe that Jesus was given the power to perform miracles by G-d.) Muslims also believe that Jesus was a Muslim.

The root Samekh Lamed Mem (in Arabic Sin Lamed Mem because Samekh and Sin collapsed in Arabic) means "submussion", in this case to G-d's will. The Mem ("m") before the root gives you the noun of the root ("someone who..."). A "Muslim" is, according to Islam, "someone who submits to the will of G-d". Jesus was, in the Islamic view, such a person. He submitted to the will of G-d, as did his early followers (before they started believing that Jesus was the son of G-d).

In Islam Jesus is a somewhat special prophet because he had the power to perform miracles at his own will (other prophets did not have that power and had to wait for G-d to perform the miracles on their account) and because he is believed to return in the future (which other prophets do not usually do either).

("Al-Islam" is Aleph Lamed Aleph Sin Lamed Aleph Mem. The writing is confusing, to me, because Lamed followed by Aleph is written as a ligature. The third Aleph represents a long vowel "a", the second is part of the word, the first is part of the definite article. "Islam" means "submission".)

Islam does not see itself as a religion founded by Muhammed but as the religion of everyone who follows G-d's will (i.e. His words as revealed in scripture). The group "Muslims", according to Islam, hence includes the following four groups:

1. Everyone who believed in the one G-d before scripture. (This includes Adam, Noah, and Abraham.)

2. Everyone who believed in scripture as (allegedly) revealed to Moses by G-d before Jesus' prophecies. (This includes Jews and non-Jews who believed in Moses' prophecy before Jesus' times.)

3. Everyone who believed in Jesus' words but did NOT believe that Jesus was divine before Muhammed's prophecy.

4. Everyone who believes in Muhammed's prophecy (and that Muhammed was the last prophet.)

However, Islamic belief does not make Islamic belief compulsory. You don't have to believe in Muhammed's prophecy to be on G-d's good side.

 

 

I really don't mind how Christians use the term "saviour". Islam sees Jesus as "someone who saves".

Jesus is not but a prophet in Islam (there are MANY prophets according to Islam), he is one of the really important ones, nearly equal to Moses and Muhammed (who both have separate claims to being the most important ones).

But for more details I would have to refer you to a (knowledgeable!) Muslim. (Most "Muslims" I have met on the Internet don't know this stuff.)

 

 

lula posts:

I don't know how familiar you are with Scripture but Pontius Pilate asked Christ while He was standing in front of him, "what is truth?" We say Truth was standing in front of him but he of course didn't understand Christ's response.

Let's just discuss truth....evidently here you are saying that my truth is not your truth, right?

If so, on what grounds do you accept that? As truth is neither yours nor mine...it's independent of us...we hold things becasue they are true..they are not true becasue we happen to believe them. Truth is consistent. If you have truth on a given subject and my ideas conflict with yours, then I don't have truth.... and if I'm right, you don't have the truth. If you wanted to go to a certain town by bus, but got into the wrong one, would you ignore the station's manager advice and say your truth is not my truth? Of course, you wouldn't. Then, why is that axiom valid only when it is a question of the way to Heaven?

Will it seems more logical if I say that Christ is the only way to Heaven?

Who's questioning? You're asking why people suffer? I can answer that in one word.

Sin!


Now before you go off and ask what sin did a little baby who has no food commit, I would tell you it's because of man's sin quite often we suffer and others pay the consequences. But we suffer for many reasons and it's hard to always have an answer for this.

There's all diff kinds of suffering going on in our world today. There are many reasons for why we go thru what we go thru.



sometimes we are not. Persistent disciplined prayer is very beneficial and I've seen many miracles in my life and the lives of those around me by their persistent prayer.

Permit me if i may, to ask a question.

What has Einstein's Theory of Relativity got to do with this? You only mention Occams Razor.

 

The rest of your statement is rather vague, your basically assuming the universe was nothing to begin with also. The chances are our known universe was actually created as a result of something happening in a metaverse.

What universe are you refering too? Believe it or not it's a rather vague term these days. Did God just create our universe? If so, what universe does he come from?

 

Seriously, if Religion wants to continue to pass down the god card, you need something more solid than 'We don't know, so it must be god', because your fast running out of things we don't know.

Really? would you please explain what this means?

Seriously, if Evolutionists want to continue to pass down the "universe and all that's in it, including life itself" happened from random chance, you need something more solid than just arguments AGAINST the Creator God.



Really? We running out of things we don't know? Then, let's start with the basics, please explain to me where life came from in your system of belief?