Is it more about what they do in their bedroom or more about equality when it comes to relationships, superannuation, rights as an individual, discrimination in the workplace... I dont think its about what position you have sexual intercourse in i think its more about society accepting there are differences and being more tolerant and open minded and less discriminatory when it comes to rights as a human being.

And I will say I am 100% in favor of that position. I believe the chief qualifier for work should be "can you do the job?".

I will say one of my pet peeves is when gratuitous sexual behavior is paraded in the public (such as the floats that are presented by the media from "gay pride" parades). I feel the same way about heterosexual behavior, though...and hold the same standard. The actual sexual behavior belongs in the bedroom.

having a predisposition for homosexual attraction is not a choice.

choosing to engage in homosexual acts and gay relationships is a choice.

having a predisposition for alcoholism is not a choice.

choosing to drink excessively is a choice.

I had a Christian try to tell me yesterday that Christianity was a way of life - not a religion...

It is indeed a way of life. It's also a religion, but I think he or she was just trying to make a point.

If you don't see Christianity as a way of life, you don't understand Christianity.

Is it more about what they do in their bedroom or more about equality when it comes to relationships, superannuation, rights as an individual, discrimination in the workplace

People who are gay have every right to engage in homosexual relationships, participate in government superannuation (called Social Security in the US), be an individual, and not be discriminated in the workplace. They also have the right to get married.

That doesn't give them the right to call whatever relationship they want marriage. Marriage is defined by hundreds of years of common law. Incidentally, people who are gay also have the right to petition for changes in law, run for political office, propose changes to constitutions, and of course vote.

Thus far, however, most of the efforts to change the status quo on marriage have failed the test of democracy. In fact, they have only sparked greater legal restraints on the definition of marriage (the Defense of Marriage Acts in the US). But no DOMA law (in the US) has been shown to violate any constitution (or bill of rights), except in Virginia and Massachusetts. In Virginia, they set up a parallel but distinct legal system for "civil unions." Same sex couples still can't get married in Virginia, so the only place marriage includes same-sex couples (in the US) is still Massachusetts, even though the majority of elected officials there voted to define it otherwise. Moreover, the court's decision was made by only a one judge split. So essentially the margin by which the definition of marriage extends to same sex couples rests on the basis of one judge's opinion.

...if the christian majority can accept that people are born with defects, conditions and differences...and that it's not their fault they were born that way....why is it that homosexuality is seen as a 'choice'? That, to me, is like saying that a person is schizophrenic by choice, or near sighted by choice.

I'm clueless on this one myself, and I am a Christian. When people give me the argument that homosexuality is a choice, I feel compelled to ask them just when it was that THEY chose to be a heterosexual...because I don't remember ever making a conscious choice to be one or the other....I just am the way I am and always have been.

I had a Christian try to tell me yesterday that Christianity was a way of life - not a religion...

If you're truly living the faith, then it should be both, actually. JMO, of course.

Apparently their faith and the rules they live by are circumstantial - i.e. the circumstances have to suit them.

Not for all of us, Muggaz......

Some situation in your life will arise where you will question your beliefs and believe me you will need an answer to why you believe it otherwise it will show itself up to be empty.

Very true, Phoenix....btdt more than once, and have had to change some of my beliefs over time because of it.....

I dont think its about what position you have sexual intercourse in i think its more about society accepting there are differences and being more tolerant and open minded and less discriminatory when it comes to rights as a human being.

Exactly....whatever happened to all of us being created equal? If that's true, then shouldn't we all be TREATED equal, in every possible way?

You can't change being gay any more than you can change curly hair straight.

Exactly.

Thank you all for you comments...it seems that we're somewhat in agreement that homosexuality is not a choice, but a pre-disposition.  Acting on the predisposition, however, is where we differ.  To me, asking a gay person to live a straight lifestyle is like asking a bird not to fly but to swim instead.

JMO...

Everyone must be left to live his/her life as he/she wishes as long as it doesnt harm the society,right ?

I don't think that those opposed to homosexuality in the Christian community will admit that it is a sickness until there is a cure. Once there is a cure, then if you choose not to seek treatment, then you are back to the beginning, choosing to be homosexual.

You have to understand , we are all born "flawed" in terms of sin, no different than a genetic defect, a universal one. No one is born perfect, and we will all sin, period, like it or not. That's just the way we are made. The choice is whether you turn to God for forgiveness and strength, or whether you delight in it and indulge yourself without thought to propriety. So, you could say there is already a recognized defect, one that we all share. For some it manifests itself in terms of homosexuality, others have different pet sins.

The condemnation isn't of the act of homosexuality, it is of the legitimization of the act, the denial that it is sin, the refusal to repent. What you do personally is between you and God. What you legitimize and promote is of great concern to the community as a whole. People will always sin, no one should ever condemn you for those sins. When people justify sins, act as if they are proud of them, and refuse to accept the wrongness of them, then they stand in defiance of God and you get the attitude that many Christians have versus homosexuality.

Reply #35 By: BakerStreet - 8/3/2004 10:06:50 AM I don't think that those opposed to homosexuality in the Christian community will admit that it is a sickness until there is a cure.

But there is no 'cure'  That's like saying there's a cure for having green eyes or red hair.  You can wear colored contacts or you can dye your hair, but what you're born with is still there.

It just amazes me how people can take parts of the bible literally and take other parts figurativley.  Yes, the bible speaks of homosexuality being a sin, but it also says that eating shellfish is forbidden.  Then we have people talking about how jesus words 'cancel out'  Leviticus...WTF?  Did he come right out and say "hey y'all, you can forget about all those rules and stuff in leviticus because I'm the man now and you only have to follow my rules"? 

 

That's like saying that being shorter than average is 'wrong'

It isn't? I always thought short people were implicit sinners.

The choice is whether you turn to God for forgiveness and strength, or whether you delight in it and indulge yourself without thought to propriety.

I refuse to limit myself to your two choices.

I refuse to limit myself to your two choices

 Me too.  Things aren't just black and white..there are many grey areas in real life."

 

I always thought short people were implicit sinners.

Hey, that's quite enough short-ism, thank you very much (I'm 5' 2"....)!  I also know that I sin accord to the christian version of morality. 

 

 

Being born gay is not a choice. Acting on it is. Acting on it openly is another choice. Insisting that others accept and embrace your lifestyle is yet another choice.

Exactly. Homosexuals can do what they want, but not everybody is required to approve of it nor should a religion be condemned because it doesn't approve of it. Men have a natural urge to procreate with as many women as humanly possible, but the Church is not wrong for not approving of such behavior, even if it isn't based on a choice, but a natural tendency.

the Church is not wrong for not approving of such behavior, even if it isn't based on a choice, but a natural tendency.

'Judge not, lest ye be judged'

'Love thy neighbor as thyself'

'Those among ye without sin, let him cast the first stone'.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

'Judge not, lest ye be judged' 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' 'Those among ye without sin, let him cast the first stone'. That's all I have to say about that.

I've heard different interpretations of those quotes. Concerning the "Judge not, lest ye be judged," I heard that applies to judging people's salvation and not their actions. I honestly can't imagine the Christian God telling Christians not to judge people for their actions unless he supports anarchy. Besides, Christians aren't the only ones with double standards. I'm positive that many of the same people stating that blaming homosexuals for their homosexuality tendencies is like blaming a schizophrenic for their schizophrenia have no problem treating rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, animal fuckers, etc. like inhuman monsters, even though nobody in their right mind would ever do such terrible things or choose such a terrible lifestyle. We might have to euthanize or incarcerate such people for the good of society, but that does not mean that they are less, unless schizophrenics are also considered subhuman for suffering from something they cannot control. We should pity them for being born with such afflictions.

I will say one of my pet peeves is when gratuitous sexual behavior is paraded in the public (such as the floats that are presented by the media from "gay pride" parades). I feel the same way about heterosexual behavior, though...and hold the same standard. The actual sexual behavior belongs in the bedroom.

I couldn't agree more. I'd also like to add that it does not belong in grade school either. It's hard enough to convince some school systems that 8 year old's don't need more "straight" sexual exposure. My son doesn't need to learn about " my two dads" in 4th grade to determine his sexual identity. Quite frankly, at his age he shouldn't have one!

have no problem treating rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, animal fuckers, etc. like inhuman monsters, even though nobody in their right mind would ever do such terrible things or choose such a terrible lifestyle.

Do you think that gay people like being scorned and shunned?  Do you think that anyone in their right mind would choose a lifestyle like that?  Every gay person I know has said that their lives would be much easier if they were straight. 

 

Do you think that gay people like being scorned and shunned? Do you think that anyone in their right mind would choose a lifestyle like that? Every gay person I know has said that their lives would be much easier if they were straight.

No, I don't think they enjoy it any more than rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, lazy people, smokers, slothful people, gluttonous people, hateful people, obsessive-compulsive people, etc. enjoy the ramifications of their afflictions.

Hoo boy.

This is why I am loathe to present a Christian position. The extremists pop out of the woodwork and make a true Christian position look looney.

Dharma, thank you for a wonderful thread topic and allowing me to present my position fairly and openly. I am going to bow out of this thread for awhile so that I don't say some rather unChristian things to some of my fellow believers.

Who's the extremist? The only Christians I've seen post don't seem to be that extreme at all.

This is why I am loathe to present a Christian position. The extremists pop out of the woodwork and make a true Christian position look looney.

I was just thinking the same thing. Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and all those other verses about love and acceptance?

Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and all those other verses about love and acceptance?

Selective verse choosing.  They only apply to things that you approve of, it seems. 

I'm positive that many of the same people stating that blaming homosexuals for their homosexuality tendencies is like blaming a schizophrenic for their schizophrenia have no problem treating rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, animal fuckers, etc. like inhuman monsters, even though nobody in their right mind would ever do such terrible things or choose such a terrible lifestyle.

"In their right mind" is the operative phrase there, though.....are you trying to say that homosexuals are in that same category, and are not in THEIR right minds? That's certainly what it sounds like, and I find that even more ridiculous than saying that it's a choice.

You do realize that the Bible consists of more than those few verses that you selectively selected, right? Besides, people interpret verses differently.

For example, Wiccans have a law: "Do what ye will, yet harm none." Now, a Wiccan will probably say that they obey it, even if they hurt animals through consumption or fashion, even if they hurt children through purchasing products made in sweatshops, and even if they hurt artists by piracy. Of course, it'd be more prudent if I tried to understand their interpretation of it as well as the entirety of the writings rather than my interpretation and a few selective quotes.