Jythier Jythier

Destiny or Free Will?

Destiny or Free Will?

Why not both?

A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept of free will vs. destiny in Christianity. A lot of times, I think that people refuse to admit just how big God really is. A lot of times, free will is thought of as the ability to make your own decisions. You have that, for sure. God said so, in His book. But he also said some other things which sounds very contradictory to that. He mentions, in His book, that He knows all the names of those who will be saved. Every saved person is known to God before they make the decision.

If your decision is already decided for you, who made the decision? Did you make it, or was it just destiny?

God, the God that I serve, knows everyone in this world better than they know themselves.

Have you ever started a sentence, and had someone who knows you really well finish the sentence for you? Because they knew what you were going to say before you said it? Well, God knows you better than that. In fact, He knows you SO well, that he not only knows what you're going to say, but also the outcome of EVERY decision you are going to make in your life.

Does this mean you are not in control of your own life? Of course not! Knowing what you will do does not make it someone else controlling you. You still are doing what you decide, He just knew that you would decide to do it before you did. He's that big.

The only person to ever walk this Earth with full knowledge of where he was heading in life, and what would happen, is Jesus Christ, and he was for not changing it. He wanted the story to go the way it was foretold, and do everything he was supposed to. Everyone else, however, has no idea where they're going to be in the next five minutes. Sure, you could make a decision to leave work, and go out and get a new job. But God knew I would be writing this article, that you would be reading it right now, and how you would react to it. You can't fool him, or mess up his plan - it's laid in such a way that he even knows how people will respond to his movement on Earth.

So, yeah, your fate is sealed. Absolutely. But not because someone else decided it for you - you decide what that fate will be. But God already knows what that final decision will be.
14,640 views 106 replies
Reply #76 Top
Argh, I agree with Lula. He wills all to be saved, but they aren't all saved... it can't be on God that people aren't saved. It's on people.
Reply #77 Top
Argh, I agree with Lula. He wills all to be saved, but they aren't all saved... it can't be on God that people aren't saved. It's on people.


Why can't it be? Back it up.

How do you answer John 1:13?





Reply #78 Top
freewill is unbiblical ...... then "exercising of their freewill in disobedience that made them flawed." ??????? !!!!!

what is going on? which is it? you are for and against freewill?


T.A.

if you read what I've been writing you'd see I believe in BOTH election and freewill. Election is God chooses us to be in the family of God. Freewill is our response AFTER the election. We are free to love, honor and obey God just like we are free to love, honor and obey our parents after being born the first time.

Reply #79 Top
"Almighty God desires that all men without exception be saved." 1Tim.2:4., though not all may be saved.


This is God's wish, but not decree since not all will be saved.
Reply #80 Top
if you read what I've been writing you'd see I believe in BOTH election and freewill. Election is God chooses us to be in the family of God. Freewill is our response AFTER the election. We are free to love, honor and obey God just like we are free to love, honor and obey our parents after being born the first time.


And the ones who were not elected don't have Freewill?

Your example is flawed. ALL children ARE allowed (i.e. elected in your terminology) to love, honer and obey. according to you God only PERMITS some and does not PERMIT others.

What a strange idea about God you have.

There is confusion allover the place.

God doesnt know the future because it didnt happen yet; If God knows what we will do it means we have no freewill; God have laws and ordered us to follow them and still God elects people to heaven regardless of their actions; Someone already paid for all our sins etc ....... !!!!!

This thread is a very clear indication why some people dont believe in God's existence in the first place.

If we only rely on God's OWN words and not on writings by others who injected what they think in His Own words we won't be in this state of confusion.

God help us all in our search for the truth.
Reply #81 Top
John 1:12-13 says:

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— [13]children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Receiving comes before being children of God, right there. You can't decide to be God's child, you decide to receive Him. Then, God accepts you as His child.
Reply #82 Top
LULA POSTS:

Almighty God desires that all men without exception be saved." 1Tim.2:4., though not all may be saved.


KFC POSTS:

This is God's wish, but not decree since not all will be saved.


Oh KFC, you're grasping at straws. If it were God's decree, then man would not have free will.


Because God is love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Because He is just, He will not deprive man of free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God for even His power does not extend to contradictory things.

Men cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness or belief, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it.

He gives all of us the means (graces)of His gift of salvation, however, these graces and His gift is not received by all.


Let's look at the entire passage and take it its meaning full circle.

1Tim 2:3-4, "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God's desire that all be saved is shown in the pastoral Epistles as He is often given the title, "Savior". We know that He desired to be Savior to all, right?

He came to earth because He wanted to redeem the whole world, right? While we are at work, a mall, a crowded beach, or even in Church, shoulder to shoulder with so many, never forget that there is no soul, sinners though we all are, that does not matter to Christ! That's what I was pointing out about the Laodiceans.

Just as GOd desires man's salvation, He desires man to be free. By making man free He has made it possible for man to cooperate in attaining his end. It says that God desires "all men to come to the knowledge of truth." The truth is firstly Jesus and this "knowledge" is not just an intellectual grasp of truth, it is something which should have an impact on one's everyday life. Knowledge of the faith involves practice of the faith and when man has knowledge of the faith and practices the faith, then he is cooperating in attaining his end....just as GOd desires him to do.





Reply #83 Top
If it were God's decree, then man would not have free will.


that's right.....that's why I said it's NOT his decree. If it were His decree than all would be saved. Freewill is what got us in the mess today. But it wasn't the freewill of election, it was the freewill of obedience. Adam and Eve had no say in the matter of belonging to the family of God. They had a relationship with him. They walked and talked with him. They were "saved." Their freewill came AFTER that and had to do with obedience, not election. They lost their position relationally, not positionally.

His desire is that all men would be saved, but not all will. We are all destined for hell. All of us. But by his mercy he saved some! That's what grace and mercy are all about. We don't deserve what we are getting. We all have broken his laws, so therefore we all deserve to be punished. All of us. As soon as we say we chose him, it makes some of us better than others. I'm better than you, and smarter because I had the intelligence to pick God out myself.

Receiving comes before being children of God, right there. You can't decide to be God's child, you decide to receive Him. Then, God accepts you as His child.


He's saying that we need to receive God before we can be a child of God right? I think we're in agreement here. But now...how do we receive him if we are dead in our sins?

That's where V13 comes in. He explains it....it's not by the flesh (that's us). It's not by the willl (that's us again). It's by God. It's plain. It's God. So I'd say you have it backwards. God accepts you as his child and then you receive him. First things first. Think about the Eunuch. Think about what happened to Phillip in relation to the Eunuch.

Just like later in John 3 when Nicodemus asks how to be born again. Jesus says by water and the spirit and then explains it by saying we don't know when or where the spirit will land. It's all spirit. It's not about flesh or will. It's not about us.

Do you understand what predestination means? It means "to ordain beforehand, to predetermine."

I heard of a professor who once said..."Try to explain election and you may lose your mind. Try to explain it away and you may lose your soul."

Salvation begins with God, not man. It starts with regeneration. The lost sinner left to his own ways does not seek God (Romans 3:10-11). God in His love seeks the sinner (luke 19:10).

Going back to John Calvin, Martin Luther, D.L. Moody, Charles Hadden Spurgeon (prince of Preachers)etc you would see they all clearly saw election was the Sovereign work of God. It's only been in the last century or so that freewill has taken such a stronghold. It's bad theology. You see them with "Freewill" on the nameplates of their churches. You see it in the praise and worship songs now. And then there are some churches now wishing to be reformed. They see all this and wish to stay true to scripture. My own denomination is split over this wondering if they should come up with a position. So far none has been taken.

Many of the modern commentators that believe this FW theology are stumped as to what to do with these very strong election sections of scripture. Usually they ignore them because they can't reconcile it. When we were studying Romans not long ago, it was quite obvious to see this done, because Romans is filled with election scripture that's hard to refute.

Also another angle here. Look at Joshua 24:15 where Joshua says...
"choose you this day which god you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

Now, what was he talking about? He didn't say choose God as some think. Look at it carefully and you'll see that these rebels were trying to decide which god to choose out of two pagan gods. Go ahead, says Joshua, you go ahead and choose which pagan god you wish to worship. As for me and my house, we will SERVE the Lord. Notice he didn't say "choose." Joshua knew. It's God who does the choosing. It's us who do the obeying. This verse was what did it for our Assoc Pastor who comes from a family of preachers. He came into our church as a freewill believer and is now a staunch election believer. He defends election readily and vigoriously now.

To say anything diff you're going to run smack into trouble trying to reconcile it all together. And Jythier, if your pastor is FW....which I suspect he is, bring him these scriptures and play the devil's advocate and see which scriptures hold up in light of the others. Throw in John 6:37 and Eph 1:4 for good measure....LOL.










Reply #85 Top
I actually don't know if my pastor is election or free will. Hmmmmmmm. Welcome back, btw, how was your trip?
Reply #86 Top
Do you understand what predestination means? It means "to ordain beforehand, to predetermine."


Hi KFC,

A while ago I asked you what election is. It's confusing because here in this last post like most of all the others in which you describe election vs. free will, in one sentence I agree and then the next that follows, I disagree.

So from what you write here is predestination "election"?

Also, do you think that people are "elected" individually or as believers as a group?
Reply #87 Top
Yip yip yip


gotta get that fixed SC.   

I actually don't know if my pastor is election or free will. Hmmmmmmm. Welcome back, btw, how was your trip?


Thanks Jythier, I just assumed he was by the way you're speaking and also because that is the modern prevalent attitude nowadays. Probably shouldn't assume...my bad. So now I'm curious....how come you don't know?

I'm still on the trip, hubby watches TV and I play on his laptop checking my email and stuff. Not much time but can't resist squeezing in and saying hi to ya all!!

A while ago I asked you what election is. It's confusing because here in this last post like most of all the others in which you describe election vs. free will, in one sentence I agree and then the next that follows, I disagree.


not quite getting ya here Lula? Whatchamean? What do you agree with and what exactly do you disagree with?

So from what you write here is predestination "election"?

Also, do you think that people are "elected" individually or as believers as a group?


Predestination is what God does for saved people. Election is related to "people" while predestination seems to relate to "purposes." The events having to do with the cross of Christ were predestined as we see in Acts 4:25-28. We see here in Eph 1:5 that God has predestined our adoption and in 1:11 our future inheritance. He also predestined our conformity to Christ (Romans 8:29-30).

People are elected individually. While he "chose" Israel as a nation, not all were automatically chosen as individuals. He chose the nation much the same way he chooses us as individuals...to be a light to those around us, to bear his name and for us to be his people and he our God.

There is NO group or denomination that has elected privledges. We as Christians are individually made up to be the body of Christ so together we would be considered as the Jews in the OT were. Chosen by God for a purpose.

Reply #88 Top
"How come you don't know?"

Because he doesn't talk about it. I don't think it's all that important, really, once you're saved... you've been elected... or free-will chose it... either way, Pastor doesn't care, you're saved. I mean, he may care, but he cares less about whether God chose or you chose, and more about the fact they ARE saved... you know?
Reply #89 Top
KFC POSTS:
not quite getting ya here Lula? Whatchamean? What do you agree with and what exactly do you disagree with?


Take reply 83..I agree with some and disagree with some and sometimes they are statement from the same paragraph! You said it from the beginning election and free will leads to much discussion and argumentation.

And doesn't this lead to a bigger question? The problem of a pastor from one denomination being so differently aligned on believing in one "election" or the other "free will" is telling. There is only one Holy SPirit guiding and directing us when reading to understand Sacred Scriputre. How can there be so many different interptetations of the same key passages that would lead one pastor to believe in election and another one reading believe in free will?

Reply #90 Top
Well, just look at the Catholic Church. They have a completely different understanding of Revelations as a whole from KFC and me, so I can see how election/free will could get buggered up too.
Reply #91 Top
Well, just look at the Catholic Church. They have a completely different understanding of Revelations as a whole from KFC and me,


So, you've noticed!


so I can see how election/free will could get buggered up too.


Interesting use of the word "buggered" up!
Reply #92 Top
Well, it's the right word. I'm honestly still not sure what's true between election and free will right now, except I know we have free will for our actions, before and after coming to God. But can we choose God? That's the question, and I should search for that answer.

Lula says, "Yes."
KFC says, "No."

I say, "I think yes, but I have not read every scripture yet."
Reply #93 Top
Well, it's the right word.


Of course it is. I was just teasing you a bit, that's all. When I was growing up I heard the term 'bugger' quite frequently. But of late, it's taken on a whole different meaning.


I knew exactly what you meant and that's good communication...getting one's point of view across effectively.



Reply #94 Top
Re the last 50 posts or so.

Who am I supposed to believe is right here? Dare I think about it on my own? Nah, I'll just wait until Lula and KFC have it all figured out so they can tell the rest of us what to think. Unless someone comes along that makes THEM think. Which isn't going to happen, because they're both so busy knowing it all that if a messenger from God walked up and hit them over the head with a sleeve of saltine crackers they wouldn't even feel it. They already both know what the answer is - except their answers are in disagreement with each other. Now how could THAT be?
Reply #95 Top
Ock,

A sleeve of saltine crackers?

Nonwithstanding the crackers, debates like this are great for thinking things through. However, we're currently dealing with two individuals who have read, understood, and come to different conclusions. Thus, they are both very stubborn in their positions and impossible to move, especially KFC because she has already moved from free-will to election.

Notwithstanding that, why do you care? We're just Christians here, and Christians obviously don't use their brains - we just read a book. I would appreciate you either being the one that makes THEM(or me) think, or contributing your own thoughts on the subject.
Reply #96 Top
A sleeve of saltine crackers?


The imagery seemed more humorous (as well as gentle) than, say, a tire iron.

I would appreciate you either being the one that makes THEM(or me) think, or contributing your own thoughts on the subject.


I have posted my views which are summarily dismissed by you experts, so I won't rehash them again.

As for my last post, it ended with a question. Dunno about you, but questions make me think. And aside from the question at the end, there is an implicit question in the rest of the post, which was completely missed...for some reason. That question is "How are humans supposed to "get it right" when even two people who have obviously studied this work to a very great extent can't agree on something it says?

If it didn't make YOU think, well, I can't really control that. It might make someone else think, though.

Want a cracker?
Reply #97 Top
That post ended with a less thoughtful question than the first one.

Here's the deal. Humans aren't going to get everything right. But the main point is clear - God loves us, as shown by Jesus dieing for us. Satan hates us, as shown by his overall conduct throughout history as the accuser, and tempter, etc.

As for the actual election vs. freewill question, does it matter if God called you or you chose him? Not really. You're still going to be saved. And if God doesn't call you, or you don't choose him, you won't be saved. Doesn't really matter how you get there.

Of course, in deciding whether to serve Him, you might want to know what kind of God He is. But, for that, I defer you back to the main point - God loves us, Satan hates us. You're going to serve one of the two.
Reply #98 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:
They already both know what the answer is - except their answers are in disagreement with each other. Now how could THAT be?



The answer lies in the doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestant Fundamentalism.

We discover, by the joining in of other's respective views, that religion has ever been one of the most interesting things to us under the sun...and people get excited about what they believe in. This is because religion is fundamentally one of the deepest things in all of us.

To Christian believers, it's the Christian essentials that count. Most of the time, we are in complete agreement or, after the explanantion is given, partial agreement. Either way, the information that is given is of great value knowing that we are searching for truth. Why? Because it's good to know not only that other people think differently, but in what way they they differ from you.

Finally, we've seen that some Catholic doctrines are flat out contradition to Protestant ones. At this point, we weigh the force of the reasons for one over the other.

At the same time, remember that one can dislike another's doctrines without disliking the person. Sometimes, my replies seem rather hard on others beliefs, but do not regard it as my being hard on them for it's not meant to be. Not one word is intended to hurt personally. This is especially true of KFC.

Reply #99 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:
That question is "How are humans supposed to "get it right" when even two people who have obviously studied this work to a very great extent can't agree on something it says?


I can only speak for myself and how I think I know that I've "got it right" as you say.

To start, I hope (that I've got it right in my search for truth) with a broad mind and I hope still more with a Catholic mind.

It's precisely to make sure that I'm not mistaken in the supremely important matters of religion, especially doctrine and morals, that I cling to the Catholic Church which cannot be mistaken in these 2 areas, but must be right because Christ promised such. Almighty God knew that sincere people would make mistakes and not "get it right" (again in these 2 areas) that He deliberately established an infallible Church to preserve them from error (only in these 2 areas) where it is the most important that they should not go wrong.



Reply #100 Top
100 replies!!!! yay.

BTW just in case no one is paying attention, if yer not a JEW you are all doomed anyway!