I love this answer!

I dont know the answers to the test, just because I looked at them already!

No, Sorry, that I will never buy or agree with.

I can give you hundreds of verses Lula. I thought the one in Romans was pretty easy to understand. How about Eph 2:1?

And you has he quickened who were DEAD in trespasses and sins?"

What can a dead man do?

How about Jesus himself? He said..."you did not choose me, I chose you."

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD to sins, should live to righteousness by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

Again, what can a dead man do? The reason for the whole incarnation was because we were dead. "Let the dead bury the dead." His birth, death and resurrection is what makes us alive. He is proof as the firstfruit that we too will follow...just as the firstfruit of the barley crop, given to God in ceremony, was a promise of more to come. That's what the Feast of Firstfruits in Lev 23 was all about.

There's alot behind this...don't have time to go into it...but look at Gen 3:21.

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins and clothed them."

He provided for them the first blood sacrifice that would more than cover them physically. It would restore them to him, not like before, but a restoration nonetheless and this was a precurser for when the ultimate sacrifice would be made thousands of years later.

Later under Moses and the law this sacrificial system would be law. Christ was the end of this system. He was the final sacrifice that appeased God for all time.



The Catholics deny this because of the whole works based system Lula. They wish and want to be thinking they HAVE to do something to gain heaven. Luther figured this out and that's what started the whole ball rolling.

I also believe that God gives man the grace necessary to gain salvation. I've said that many times. That doesn't contradict election. The will is free I agree with that also.....and our free will DOES NOT choose God, because we are DEAD in our sins.

Remember we're talking two diff things...freewill and election. I believe scripture is clear that election is God choosing us for salvatin and I believe freewill is our response AFTER salvation.

KFC POSTS:

Once a person is dead (physically), it's too late to answer what can he do.

Let's read further on in this passage you cite and see if it helps us come to an agreement theologically speaking.

"Any you He made alive, when you were dead through trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of the world...."


Up until the time of Christ's death on the Cross, the gates of heaven were closed. In that sense we could agree that all were spritually dead (lost) in our sins.

After Christ's death, everything changed. The gates of Heaven were opened. Read the part that I highlighted, do you see it says WERE dead? That's what tells the story. We WERE spiritually dead, but are no longer. Following that it says, which you ONCE WALKED again indicating that everything changed.

You KFC, said it yourself here:


"becasue we WERE dead. We aren't dead anymore exactly becasue of Christ. Everything hinges on Christ.

Thanks KFC, for the lesson about the animal skins. I was only aware of the fig leaves loincloth. Of course, up until the sin, there was no killing animals. They all lived together in peaceful harmony.

I understand and agree with the rest of your commentary. It's right on.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:



Yes, on this the Church is right and Luther was wrong. After reading St.Paul to the Romans 3:28, in a manner not intended by the author, Luther impudently perverted the text and "figured out" the false doctrine of "saved by faith alone", Sola Fides. And you're quite correct, Protestants have been rolling with this ball ever since.   Luther didn't like St.James and you know why? St.James dealt with the same subject as St.Paul on faith and works, and said, "Faith unless it has works is dead in itself." 1:17-18.

Luther's teaching that "faith alone justifies" was condemned by the Council of Trent becasue it clearly contradiced Sacred Scripture.

Luther's teachings on faith and Christ's teachings on faith aren't the same thing. Faith with Luther meant a man's confidence that all his sins, past present and future, had been forgiven by God for Christ's sake. CHrist and His Apostles always taught that faith implied the acceptance of all GOd's Revelation on His word.
Other dispositions are required, for we must not only believe, we must hope, repent and love.

The Lutheran doctrine that God does not impute a sin which really exists is a contradiction in terms, never met with in Sacred Scripture. When God forgives sins, our sins are taken away, blotted out, exhausted, and removed from us as far as the east is from the west. They are never remembered again.

Sola Fide is a false doctrine of Luther becasue it destroys the very essence of supernatural faith. Faith may be defined as a supernatural virtue which disposes the mind to assent freely, with certainity and on the authority of God to all the truths He revealed. It's essentially an intellectual act as St.Paul teaches. 1Cor 8:12; 2Cor 10:5. St.Paul defines it as "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." Heb.11:1.

The assent of faith is directed by the will under the influence of Divine grace. The will plays a most important part. Romans 10:10, St.Paul says that "with the heart, (i.e. a good will)we believe unto justice."

Our Lord frequently attributed the unbelief of the Jews to the hardness of their heart and their obstinancy of will. StMark 3:5; 16:13; St.Luke 24:25.



Regarding Salvation, Catholic teaching is that it's a gift of God; that by Christ's death, man passed from spiritual slavery to freedom, that is, become adopted children in the kingdom of God. Jesus demands payment for personal salvation. His price is faith, expressed in works of love for God and neighbor.



Your're describing the doctrine of merit which is expressly taught in many passages of the NT. Merit is the value attached by God to our good deeds, which we freely perform by the help of divine grace. The CC has always taught that merit rested,not as Luther falsely asserted, on any absolute right to reward in the works themselves, but on the express promise of God to reward faithful service to Him by grace here and glory afterward. 2Tim.4:7.

I apologize this reply is long-winded. I think it important though to get all the theological arguments out on the table.

But this passage in Eph is NOT talking physical...it's talking spiritual death. We are dead in our sins EVEN THO we are walking around. It seems like we're alive but we're not. We're dead. We're dead until we're born again. He's saying, before you came to the Lord you were dead.



Well not really...in a way yes. But we see from the OT that many were ALIVE then...like Abraham was found righteous (made alive) in God's eyes before he had done anything (election). God chose Abraham to be the seed for the Hebrew Nation to be born from. David was chosen as well as all the others and Christ had not died yet. They looked forward in faith to the promise as we look back.

The way you're talking it's like everybody in the whole world is now alive spiritually. At least that's how I'm taking it. Read that again including your highlights and put Paul's name there.

"And PAUL He made alive, when HE WAS dead through trespasses and sins in which HE once walked, following the course of the world...."

ok, now how was Paul made alive from being dead? Remember he was on the way to kill Christians when HE met God. Notice WHO made WHO alive! So is this election or freewill?



Yes, I agree with all this...but the question is....How are we made alive? Is it OOUR doing or is it God's doing? Is it freewill or is it Election? That is the question.

I'm not even going to go to bat on #56 Lula. Been there, done that with you and you already know how I feel so it would only be redundant. Besides it's getting off topic.

ha Lula,....I think we chased everyone away...AGAIN! Where's Jythier?

Reading Romans 9!

KFC, are you saying that God calls, chooses, however you want to say it, and then we have the freewill to answer or not answer?

If this is the case... is it not possible that God chooses everyone?

Romans 11:32

"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

KFC POSTS:

KFC, All these men, Abraham, David and St.Paul were specially chosen by God. All these men would fall into the Catholic understanding of predestination.

Also, Catholics believe the Sacrament of Baptism, through the Holy Spirit, gives the grace necessary wipes away the stain of Original Sin. These three men of the OT, had the graces necessary to overcame the stain of Original Sin through circumcision.

I disagree though when you say:



The dominant thing in Abraham's life was his obedience to GOd. Obedience is doing something. He was given the supreme test in answer to a command from God, Abraham freely, willingly offered his son for sacrifice.

Abraham was justified by faith but that faith in GOd was seen in a deed, offering his son Isaac for sacrifice. It was not the sacrifice, it was the faith that caused Abraham to be justified.




There is a predestination for a specially chosen few who are given very special graces over and above the ordinary distrubution. St.Paul, once a Pharisee, was predestined to his Apostolate. He was given a special providence of God.

St.Paul converted, believed in Christ as the Messias, and was baptised into the Body of Christ.




Catholics believe Christians are made alive as you say by our Baptism. The rebirth is brought about by an exterior thing, water and the Holy SPirit, the gift of Christ administered in the name of the Father, of the SOn and Of the Holy Spirit. It causes a change in our whole being..and Original Sin is removed. By Baptism we are made alive (given supernatural grace).

Rebirth like birth comes from God.

Ya, I hear ya...but you brought up Luther here and I couldn't resist.   

no I'm not saying that at all. He's not going to choose everyone. We know that by reading the end of Revelation. So obviously not all are going to heaven.

The verse you speak? Look at the context. Paul is talking about Israel's temporary rejection. Look at v25. He's saying that by Israel's rejection, Gentiles are now allowed to come in. He's turning to them now. But because the promises made to the patriarchs are irrevocable, Israel must be restored (v28-29). So in continuing in v31 he's saying "all" ie. Jews and Gentiles alike. God is a God of mercy not merit.

I'm saying our freewill is after God chooses us. Election and then obedience. First step of obedience is to be baptized as a witness of whom we are now following.

Well then read Romans 4 and tell me what it says. Also go back to Genesis and you'll see the first thing that happened was God "called" him out. Abraham obeyed and was found righteous.

Go to Gen 15:6 where you'll read:

"And he "believed in the Lord." and he counted it to him for righeousness."

In other words he was SAVED. This was WAY before giving his son up. Giving his son up to the Lord was EVIDENCE of his Salvation or faith. God tested him for Abraham's benefit. God already knew what Abraham would do. This whole scene was a picture of God willing to give up his only son as Abraham was willing to do. Not YOUR son Abraham....but my son.

The word "believed" means to lean whole weight upon. The word "it" is a noun and refers to Jesus (John 8:56-make sure you read this).

Now notice that Abraham WAS NOT circumcised until 14 years later in 17:23. So he DID NOTHING for this salvation given to him. God chose him. Now it's up to Abraham to obey or not. He screwed up pretty big later as we read in Genesis. So he was far from perfect. He descendants are still at war today over one of his very large mistakes.

no, no, no, no.....(is that clear enough..LOL?) I'm referring here to your first sentence. Where do you get this? It's not in scripture (hint).

Peter said himself:

"Then Peter opened his mouth (means it's important-pay attention), and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."

He saves us all the SAME WAY. By HIS Grace



you know I don't agree with this. We've been over this. It's NEVER about externals. It's all about INTERNALS.



now this I can wholeheartedly say AMEN. I agree.

I know not everyone's going to heaven, but it's possible that he meant he calls everyone and some simply don't answer.

Are you thinking of any particular scripture on this?

According to scripture ALL have gone astray. NONE choose God it says. Doesn't leave room for anyone else.

I believe in both freewill and election....just not freewill for salvation...

All have gone astray, for sure. But I believe based on the teachings I've heard, that God tries to get everyone's attention, tries to have mercy on everyone.. but some do not accept the gift. One could not choose God without God's mercy, but it is bestowed on everyone, but then the person God is merciful to does not necessarily accept the gift.

Not thinking of any particular scripture, but taking the scriptures you've offered and saying that they might not mean what you are saying.

That's why I suggested Romans 9. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and will have compassion on whom he will have compassion. We all are worthy of eternal death..all of us.

Here's something to think about....In Romans 9:11 is the word "ekloge" (election) and means to "choose" "pick out for oneself" "select".

This is one subject I've been digging into for quite some time...years. I came from the freewill side over to the election side years ago after much studying on this subject. Romans is very big on election. I can't justify freewill anywhere in scripture prior to election.

I know one preacher said....when I come to a freewill verse I preach freewill like there is no tomorrow...and when I come to an election verse I preach election like no tomorrow as well.

I know J. Vernon McGee who wrote his famous commentaries "Thru The Bible" has a real hard time when he hits these hard to believe "election" verses. He struggled with the concept and made no bones about the struggle in his commentaries.

It's a very hard concept I agree. It has been debated for years. But it really comes down...is it about us...or is it about God?

I think in Romans 9, Paul? was talking to the Jews who were pissed the Gentiles were being saved, which is why he said that about God, having mercy on whoever He wanted. As an inclusiveness, not an exclusiveness, you know? He picks the Jews, and the Gentiles to have mercy on.

hahaha! That's probably true. I'm sure their noses were some out of joint. That's for sure.

You keep studying....you can do what I do, when you come across something that speaks loudly of Election put a big E next to the verse. If you see something that speaks Freewill put a big F next to it. I have lots of E's all over my bible, but have yet to put in an F.

I told you right from the get-go..this would garner some attention as it's a very interesting and can be heated topic.

It's nothing to divide over tho.

jythier posts:

Now that KFC has answered, here's my 2 cents worth.

God created everyone of us to know, love and serve Him in this world to be with Him in Heaven, surely a great destiny. In this sense, He chose all of us from the moment of our creation It is also in this sense that no one is predestined by God to Hell. God wills all to be saved, but not against their wills. He died for all, thereby giving all men the means of salvation should they will to make use of such means.

As a result of Christ's atonement, all who sincerely wish to be saved can be saved. We have free will to believe or not to believe and the human will to believe involves no conflict with reason. Belief in fact is a reasonable choice.

Because God is love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Because He is just, He will not deprive man of free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God for even His power does not extend to contradictory things.

Men cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness or belief, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it.

It is man's dignity that He is the master of his own destiny instead of having to develop just like a tree which necessarily obeys natural law.



He gives all of us the means (graces)of His gift of salvation, however, these graces and His gift is not received by all.
Simply put, some believe and some don't. After that, some of those who believe through free will do not act on their belief; that is they don't love God and their neighbor.

But it is impossible to give man the gift of free will and the dignity of master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.

Another way to look at it is if man didn't have free will he could not be responsible for his actions and could neither merit commendation by good actions, nor condemnation for evil ones.

KFC POSTS:

I find this confusing and hard to follow. Please explain what you mean by Election.

In this scenario, where/how does free will come into it for those God doesn't choose?

I agree we are all saved by His grace, however, St.Paul, is a most special case. I'd say in God's distriubtion of grace, he was given an extra-ordinary amount of grace, while we are given an ordinary amount of grace. This is a great mystery that in some ways is beyond our understanding.

lula posts:

OK, I'll try again. Rebirth is brought about by an exterior thing, water and the gift of the Holy SPirit administered in the name of the Blessed Trinity. Rebirth (by baptism) causes an interior supernatural change. We are made alive by supernatural grace.

Jythier posts:




Romans chapers 9-11 deals mainly with God's plan for Isreal.

V. 11, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,"

V. 11 is in the middle of a sentence and in the middle of a whole context of thought and teaching. With this example, the reader is not to meant to ponder the how or why; the parenthesis in v. 11, makes clear what is the real point.

Here again 2 sons are contrasted. The sons of Rebecca and Isaac are twins which only sharpens the action of God's choice. They were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad.

We must keep in mind that this action of GOd's election itself leads to a goal which is ultimately salvation as a gift of GOd and which in this case involves the fulfillment of the history of His people, the Israelites. We must go back to v. 6-7, for a more clear understanding. "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham becasue they are his descendants,"

and remember that GOd by His word has bound Himself to Isreal and that the subject of the present discussion is "Israel" and not the "providence" of GOd. At the same time, the underlying question of Isreal cannot be solved separately from the theology of Jusification as the remark, "not because of works" in v. 12 indicates.

St.paul sees the stress of the statement of v. 13 as lying on the free election of God as shown in His actions. But God's freedom doesn't consist in showing love here or hate there, but in the fact that He Himself is where He bestows His love. We see this as His approach in Christ. So, God elects, disposes and acts according to His freedom which has its origin with Him, and this is illustrated in the history of Israel by the fact what Israel is and will be depends on GOd alone.

The selection of the people of Israel in preference to all other nations, individual's salvation or rejection, are examples which point to the profound mystery of predestination.

Wisdom, Scripture tells us, "reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and she orders all things well." 8:1.

God ordains that all men shall attain salvation with the help of grace and with their own free cooperation. The essence of the mystery of predestination lies in the fact that our limited minds cannot fully understand how the inevitably of God's plan fits in with human freedom.

"Almighty God desires that all men without exception be saved." 1Tim.2:4., though not all may be saved. The mystery of predestination reveals 3 truths.

1. the absolute freedom and generosity of God in granting us His grace without any merit on our part: all men are sinners against Him; yet out of His goodness and mercy He offers them His love and justifies them.

2. God's salvific will extends to all mankind. and Christ, sent by the Father to effect our Redemption died on the Cross for all mankind.

3. God in the work of our salvation, counts on our cooperation and inspires us, through His grace, to cooperate. This means that man can always resist the grace that God gives him. The work of our redemption therefore is a continuous interplay between divine grace which takes the initiative and man's response, with man's free decision being prepared by God.

freewill is unbiblical ...... then "exercising of their freewill in disobedience that made them flawed." ??????? !!!!!

what is going on? which is it? you are for and against freewill?