Jythier Jythier

Destiny or Free Will?

Destiny or Free Will?

Why not both?

A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept of free will vs. destiny in Christianity. A lot of times, I think that people refuse to admit just how big God really is. A lot of times, free will is thought of as the ability to make your own decisions. You have that, for sure. God said so, in His book. But he also said some other things which sounds very contradictory to that. He mentions, in His book, that He knows all the names of those who will be saved. Every saved person is known to God before they make the decision.

If your decision is already decided for you, who made the decision? Did you make it, or was it just destiny?

God, the God that I serve, knows everyone in this world better than they know themselves.

Have you ever started a sentence, and had someone who knows you really well finish the sentence for you? Because they knew what you were going to say before you said it? Well, God knows you better than that. In fact, He knows you SO well, that he not only knows what you're going to say, but also the outcome of EVERY decision you are going to make in your life.

Does this mean you are not in control of your own life? Of course not! Knowing what you will do does not make it someone else controlling you. You still are doing what you decide, He just knew that you would decide to do it before you did. He's that big.

The only person to ever walk this Earth with full knowledge of where he was heading in life, and what would happen, is Jesus Christ, and he was for not changing it. He wanted the story to go the way it was foretold, and do everything he was supposed to. Everyone else, however, has no idea where they're going to be in the next five minutes. Sure, you could make a decision to leave work, and go out and get a new job. But God knew I would be writing this article, that you would be reading it right now, and how you would react to it. You can't fool him, or mess up his plan - it's laid in such a way that he even knows how people will respond to his movement on Earth.

So, yeah, your fate is sealed. Absolutely. But not because someone else decided it for you - you decide what that fate will be. But God already knows what that final decision will be.
14,637 views 106 replies
Reply #26 Top
DRGUY POSTS:

I did make 2 choices. That until those choices were made, were unknown. That is my point. Until we make the choice, God cannot know. He knows we are at a juncture and a choice is about to be made, but since the choice has not been made, he cannot know the outcome. No one can, since the outcome does not exist at this point in time. Omniscience is often mistaken for many things. But it simply is all knowledge of facts. Something that has not happened is therefore not a fact, and not part of omniscience.

Free will means that God does not know how we will decide. Only that we must. He hopes that we decide correctly, but then he did give Satan/Evil equal dominion over the world so that man could chose between the 2. But if he already knows the outcome of the game, the game is a sham and not being played, but rather staged.


MasonM POSTS: #13
I do not believe that He knows what any of us will choose to do from one moment to the next.


DrGuy, I too found what this part of what MasonM wrote close to what I understand. You do a good job framing it as well.

Here's something I found from Archbishop M. Sheehan of Sydney, New South Wales that helps explain it further.

We see things in a mist, says Holy Scripture. Hence, when we are considering a good God and a wicked man, we must hold continually in mind the fact that we humans are finite beings whose intelligence is infinitesimally small when compared with the intelligence of the infinite mind of God.

The real vital knowledge that we have comes is revealed knowledge. From this we learn that it is a mistake to speak of God knowing things "beforehand", for God is the Eternal Present, the I Am who Am. Hence, there is no time, no succession as past, present and future in God. He knows all things that have happened, are happening, and will happen, 'simultaneously' say the great theologians, whereas knowledge of events that have been and are happening comes to us in successive order.

With this understanding, you can realize that God does not know of a murder before the man committed the murder. While this gives us a basis for understanding that God's foreknowledge does not warrant the charge of His being the forecause of the murder, it remains most difficult to get more than a shadow of the "oneness of Divine knowledge; God knowing all things through one glance, one single thought, and that thought being identical with Himself."

Reply #27 Top
You'd still have a purpose, Ock!   

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Dr. Guy:

If I recall correctly, it was Satan who tested Job, not God.

I will start looking through the scriptures for people suprising God. I can't recall that ever happening, but that certainly doesn't mean it didn't.

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Also, as for the whole thing of living being moot, you could say the same thing with relationships - if I know my wife, why should I spend any time with her? Why do we do things together? Because, I want to be with her. Just the same, God wants to go through experiences with us, not just know what we would have done.

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KFC, could you please refer me to some scriptures that show predestination? I am interested to see what this Bible of mine says about it. I looked at John 1, but it was in the Message Remix which isn't really great for scripture study...

Reply #28 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:
And let's go there. Most folks then claim "Oh, well it was divinely inspired...the parts in the Bible are meant to be there, and the stuff that was cut out were meant NOT to be there. It was God's will...he inspired Constantine what to keep and what to throw out."


The Bible came from the Church, not from Constantine. The Books that ended up being part of the collection (Old and New Testament Canon) we call Sacred Scripture has everything to do with Catholic Church Councils and not much at all to do with Emperor COnstantine. All he did was order all of the bishops to gather (the Nicea Council) and decide once and for all which books and writings (from hundreds) should be accepted and which would not.

Reply #29 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:
our will is not free...it's a stacked deck of cards.


Yes, we have free will. Ever heard of will power?

That's the ability to be satisfied with one peanut when you have a bagful.

Or the determination to be content with one glass of wine when you know that 2 glasses will make you drunk.

How about the capablity to keep your lips and teeth closed when angry, so as not to curse or make statements that inflict wounds which may never heal?

How about the energy of character that turns your eyes and thoughts away from persons and things that stimulate lustful desires?

How about the faculty of being able to choose and refuse which has been given us by Almighty GOd?

How about the conquering power of man by which he directs himself away from willfullness?



Why do I bother with logic? God is perfect, and he gave me this brain, and I'm using it to think with...not parroting something that was told to me. I do that because the question arose in me "What if there were a person that grew up somewhere that had absolutely no access to Jesus Christ. What happens to them?


Here's what happens, what we are made of...

Man is a creature created by God. He has a body and a soul, the latter is made in God's image and likeness, in that it is a spirit is immortal, and is endowed with intelligence and free will. He also gave each one of us a guardian angel.

God also wrote the Natural law on our hearts which some call conscience. From this we have the sense of good and evil; right and wrong. We know interiorily when we are doing wrong. Something inside rebukes our conduct that we are going against an inward voice. It's the voice of conscience dictating to us a law that we did not make, and which no man could have made.

The voice is quite often against what we wish to do, warning us beforehand, condemning us after its violation. The law dictated by this voice of conscience supposses a lawgiver who has written His Law on our hearts. This is one of the proofs that God exists for He alone could do this.

Reply #30 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:
And if some other entity did create me, then my actions/responses are his responsibility. They are a direct result of the quality of his creation.


Ah, stop your sniveling and step up to the plate and take responsbility for your own choosing or not choosing.

When our choices are bad or wrong, own up, be sorry, reform and don't do them again. Reforming our lives can start just by getting on our knees and asking GOd for help and forgiveness..this takes dropping foolish pride and humbling ourself to Someone who is Greater than you.
Reply #31 Top
JYTHIER POSTS:
So, I think He could not have just made people who loved Him - but He could make SOME people who loved Him out of a multitude of people. A percentage. So that's what He did.


Do you really think Almighty God's act of creation of humans is about percentages? I don't.

As for this:
I think that might be part of the reason it was worth it to God to create life. It was for HIS glory. To improve the quality of HIS existence.


Jythier surely you know better. There is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever about man that improves upon the quality of God's existence.

God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next. As the created one, our duty, responsibility and obligation is to Him, our Creator.

We cannot know God without being moved to love Him; we cannot love Him without serving Him. The knowledge and love of GOd and what He expects of us is therefore the most important thing that can possibly claim the attention of man, not the other way around.
Reply #32 Top
Dr Guy Posts:
Again, until a deed is done, it is not a fact, and there is nothing to "know".


Yep, this is another way of saying that knowledge doesn't cause an event, rather the event causes knowledge.

Reply #33 Top
Ah, stop your sniveling and step up to the plate and take responsbility for your own choosing or not choosing.


I beg your pardon, you impertinent twit? This is a child of God you're talking to. How dare you?
Reply #34 Top
I beg your pardon, you impertinent twit? This is a child of God you're talking to. How dare you?


Answer: You're self-righteous. (but since thinking isn't sanctioned by the church, all is well...carry on.)
Reply #35 Top
"God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next."

And that didn't improve the quality of His existence?
Reply #36 Top
"God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next."

And that didn't improve the quality of His existence?


No, God is Infinitely Perfect from the getgo, and always was and will be...in my view, we humans add nothing to improve the quality of His existence.

I think I'm having trouble with your use of the word "improve" in God's case. How can anything, especially having to do with mankind, "improve" God?
Reply #37 Top
OCKhamsrazor Posts
This is a child of God you're talking to.


This is good to know.
Reply #38 Top
KFC, could you please refer me to some scriptures that show predestination? I am interested to see what this Bible of mine says about it. I looked at John 1, but it was in the Message Remix which isn't really great for scripture study...


I haven't read all the replies here so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone.

I did read what Doc said about God not knowing what we'll do and this is what I'd refer him to in John 2:24-25:

But Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

He knew exactly what they were going to do. He knew exactly who would betray him as we see in scriptures in the upper room. Is it I Lord? Remember that? What did Jesus do? He dipped the bread and handed it to Judas.

We see the first mention of Christ coming to redeem man in Gen 3:15 right there in the garden. God knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and he planned a restitution for them. Elsewhere in scripture it says Christ was chosen to give his life for a ransom from the foundation of the world. God is indeed all knowing. Otherwise he wouldn't be God. To say otherwise is not to put him where he belongs and instead elevate man where he shouldn't be.

Here's just the tip of the iceburg for you Jythier:

For whom He did FORENOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom HE did PREDESTINATE them he also CALLED them He also justified and whom He justified them He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30.

According as HE HAS chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL. Eph 1:4-5.

Ephesians 1 & 2 are good chapter for this. In 1:4 (mentioned above) you see the Father chooses. In 1:7 we see the Son redeems and in 1:13 the Holy Spirit seals.

In 2:1 you see that WE ALL are born dead in our sins inherited from Adam. But it says that he "quickens" us. That's when we become alive to him. It's He who regenerates. We can not give birth to ourselves. Life comes from life and if we're born dead (spiritually) how does this happen? Read John Chap 3...you must be born again said Jesus.

It's only a hard concept because we make it hard.
Reply #39 Top
We're not improving God. But if it's the same to Him to have us or not to have us around, why did He create us? From my completely human tiny mind, I say it's NOT the same to Him.
Reply #40 Top
But Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

He knew exactly what they were going to do. He knew exactly who would betray him as we see in scriptures in the upper room. Is it I Lord? Remember that? What did Jesus do? He dipped the bread and handed it to Judas.


That clearly is a matter of interpretation. Leaving Judas and Jesus out of this for the moment, I read that passage differently.

He knows what is in man, as does man for the most part. The ability to do good and evil. But knowing what we are going to do before we do or even before we commit to it? Sorry, that goes against my understanding of free will. I cannot accept or believe that since that would mean my choices are predetermined, and indeed, I have no free will - just an appearance of it.
Reply #41 Top
From reading a bit more of the replies there seems to be some confusion here. We do have freewill but our freewill is such that we CAN'T choose God. We are so blind and/or dead spiritually we can't do it. Remember Jesus said.."let the dead bury the dead?"

Paul said:

"There is none righteous, no not one: There is NONE that understands, there is NONE that seeks after God." Romans 3:9-10.

When Adam sinned he lost the title deed to the earth. It was then handed over to Satan who grabbed it away from him. It was only by the Son who redeemed us at the cross that the title deed again changed hands. Sin was defeated. Now, it's only Christ who is worthy to open up the scroll seen in Revelation 5 (a hint to check out my new blog later today). He alone holds this title deed.

Think of freewill this way. Adam and Eve had NO choice to be in that garden. They were in the family of God because God CHOSE them to be there. He breathed life into them and they walked and talked with him. They had a relationship until that one fateful day, they exercised their FREEWILL (after election) to disobey their God. This brought in sin and separation. But they didn't stop being his children. When God killed that animal to clothe them (they were naked and ashamed now) it was a picture of the final restitution that would come. This animal sacrifice was only a temporary fix, but it showed that this is how God set up the process. Forgiveness of sin is only done thru remission of blood.

Our children have NO choice when they are born into our family. But once born they have freewill to obey or disobey their parents. When they disobey it doesn't mean they are not part of the family but it sure makes for ugly family gatherings. In the same way as Adam, sinning against one's parents brings separation to the family.

We don't have freewill when it comes to belonging to the Family of God, but once in this family we have freewill to obey or disobey, to love and honor or not. That's where the freewill comes in.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48



Reply #42 Top
But knowing what we are going to do before we do or even before we commit to it? Sorry, that goes against my understanding of free will. I cannot accept or believe that since that would mean my choices are predetermined, and indeed, I have no free will - just an appearance of it.


It's not that your choices are predetermined but that GOD KNOWS what you are going to do. That's not the same thing.

When you put candy on the table with kids in the house you KNOW that it will be gone when you get back, right? How does this predetermine the kid's freewill? They can choose not to take that candy if they so desire. You are not messing with their freewill. You just know the outcome.

Reply #43 Top
So why do we have all these other people lying around that aren't chosen? What is their purpose, then, KFC? Why doesn't he choose everyone? Because they wouldn't obey? He's chosen some that don't!
Reply #44 Top
Why doesn't he choose everyone? Because they wouldn't obey? He's chosen some that don't!


remember what I said about the "why" questions? Read Chap 9 of Romans. Then get back to me. See if that helps.

First we must remember that we were ALL predestined for hell. We were ALL lying in the sea (the world) dead in our sins. God by his mercy and grace started plucking us out of the water so to speak, brings us ashore and blows breath into us (John 3). It's God who regenerates remember. What is grace? Isn't it "unmerited" favor? We didn't deserve it but he gave it anyway. why? Don't know.

Grace is giving us what we DON'T deserve. Mercy is NOT giving us what we DO deserve.

Think about Paul on his way to Damascus. He had no idea what was about to happen, yet he writes in Gal 1 that he was set apart in his mother's womb. So too does Jeremiah say this in Jeremiah 1.

I can't answer the why questions. I can only give you my opinion and that's not good enough.

He saves us the same way he saved the Jews in the OT. Somewhere it says, I chose you not because you were bigger or better than the other nations but because I chose to love you and call you out for my name. It's the same with us. He's calling us out for his name. The only thing is...we have no idea who he's calling for sure and who he's not. We will be very surprised when we get to heaven I beieve.

Reply #45 Top
It's not that your choices are predetermined but that GOD KNOWS what you are going to do. That's not the same thing.


Yes it is. If god knows, then I have no choice. It is predetermined. Nothing I do is going to change what to god has already happened.

It matters not WHO knows. If the future is set, and that is the only way that God would know, then it is predestination.
Reply #46 Top
Will read Chapter 9 of Romans and get back to you, KFC.

I like to hear your opinions though, even if they're not good enough.
Reply #47 Top
If god knows, then I have no choice.


well I look at it like we choose and God knows.

Nothing I do is going to change what to god has already happened.


This is true.

But it doesn't mean we don't have freewill. It's just that God knows beforehand what that freewill is for us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. As a parent I've said those words to my child...."I know you better than you know you." Have you ever said that? And I'm not God. God is way superior than I. He knows much more about me than I do my own children.

then it is predestination


yes.




Reply #48 Top
KFC POSTS:
We do have freewill but our freewill is such that we CAN'T choose God. We are so blind and/or dead spiritually we can't do it.



Whereever did you get this idea KFC? You are forgetting that God created us with the sense of Him (the Natural or Moral Law) written on our heart. We are created in His image and Likeness for Heaven's sake. What do you mean we can't (in capitals) choose God?
These Scriptural passages that you quote prove none of this.

Yes, the gates of Heaven were closed to us due to the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. But, in their despair for having sinned, God in His Infinite mercy forgave them, and gave them the promise of the Redeemer. Yes, ever since then, we are born predisposed with Original Sin.

By His bloody atonement, Christ freed man from the bond of sin.
Jesus opened the gates of Heaven which were closed by the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. At His death, Jesus made salvation for ALL men possible. God wills all men to be saved, but not against their free will. Man was left free to decide whether or not he would love God and live according to the teachings of Jesus or contrary to them.


KFC POSTS:
We do have freewill but our freewill is such that we CAN'T choose God. We are so blind and/or dead spiritually we can't do it. Remember Jesus said.."let the dead bury the dead?"

Paul said:
"There is none righteous, no not one: There is NONE that understands, there is NONE that seeks after God." Romans 3:9-10.



This verse you cited from Romans doesn't support your statement that we can't choose God becasue we are so spiritually blind or dead.

The verse shows us the sorry state of affairs from Original and personal sin. What did St.Paul mean by "none is righteous, not one....?" We know these words should not be taken as referring to absolutely, literally everyone. For example we know that infants aren't capable of personal sin. And there have always been just and devout people, like Noah, Abraham and Moses who received divine grace and were enabled to do good works by virtue of the future merits of Christ. Catholics believe the Blessed Virgin Mary was exempted from the stain of all sin.

If taken from context, St.Paul is dealing with the general guilt of sin. He first questions the advantage of the Jews and agrees that they have precedence as the first chosen bearers of the promise, but at the same time he sees them included in the sinfulness of men.

This verse, 9-10 that he cites is taken from Psalm 13:1 (for you maybe 14:1) which was written at the time of the general corruption of man before our Redemption by Christ and before the gates of Heaven were opened. Here, it's clear he concludes that no group of people Jew or Gentile are sinless, that all are under the guilt of sin. He's teaching that all men are sinners and no one can be justified by the works of the Mosaic Law, but only by faith and grace of Christ.

Reply #49 Top
KFC POSTS:
When God killed that animal to clothe them (they were naked and ashamed now)


I'm curious about this....that God killed an animal to clothe them. My Douay Rheims and NAB versions of Genesis 3:7 have it as: "And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves aprons (loinclothes)."
Reply #50 Top
Regarding predestination:

Jythier posts:
Why doesn't he choose everyone? Because they wouldn't obey? He's chosen some that don't!


KFC POSTS: remember what I said about the "why" questions? Read Chap 9 of Romans. Then get back to me. See if that helps.

First we must remember that we were ALL predestined for hell.



On this one, KFC, we are diametrically opposed.

This is a fatalistic Calvinist doctrinal belief that all that is was eternally and unchangeably decreed by God. It holds that salvation and damnation are caused solely by the will of God, irrespective of the merits or demerits of the individual. It's an old Catholic condemned heresy revived in the 16th century through Luther's denial of free will in sinners or freedom in the use of grace, which the Chruch says we receive through the merits of Christ.

Catholics believe in predestination, but not in the Calvinistic sense for it denies 2 basic Catholic teachings..that the will is free and that God gives man the grace necessary to gain salvation.
We have God's word and a sense of understanding in the power of man to harmonize himself with the will of God so as to receive the grace necessary for salvation.

There is no such thing as predestination to Hell. To every one God gives sufficient grace for salvation and every man can be saved by corresponding with it. Therefore, if any one is lost, it's through his own fault.

We believe in predestination in the sense that GOd decreed from the beginning of creation that man, by cooperating with God's grace, by obedience to the Commandments, will be saved. God foreknows, but does not forecause eternal death or eternal life.

One can understand the expression 'destined for Hell" in the sense of the soul of the man who will certainly go to Hell if he remains in grevious mortal sin without contrition or repentance of it and even with that degree of guilt, we do not know whether or not a supreme act of God's mercy has intervened between the sin and the actual death of the person.

There is a predestination for a specially chosen few who are given very special graces over and above the ordinary distrubution, as in the case of St.Paul who though a Pharisee, was predestined to his Apostolate. He was given a special providence of God with which God that the individual will certainly correspond.

When God blesses some persons with graces that others do not receive, has been and ever will be a mystery, for the judgments of God are inscrutable.