Destiny or Free Will?

Why not both?

A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept of free will vs. destiny in Christianity. A lot of times, I think that people refuse to admit just how big God really is. A lot of times, free will is thought of as the ability to make your own decisions. You have that, for sure. God said so, in His book. But he also said some other things which sounds very contradictory to that. He mentions, in His book, that He knows all the names of those who will be saved. Every saved person is known to God before they make the decision.

If your decision is already decided for you, who made the decision? Did you make it, or was it just destiny?

God, the God that I serve, knows everyone in this world better than they know themselves.

Have you ever started a sentence, and had someone who knows you really well finish the sentence for you? Because they knew what you were going to say before you said it? Well, God knows you better than that. In fact, He knows you SO well, that he not only knows what you're going to say, but also the outcome of EVERY decision you are going to make in your life.

Does this mean you are not in control of your own life? Of course not! Knowing what you will do does not make it someone else controlling you. You still are doing what you decide, He just knew that you would decide to do it before you did. He's that big.

The only person to ever walk this Earth with full knowledge of where he was heading in life, and what would happen, is Jesus Christ, and he was for not changing it. He wanted the story to go the way it was foretold, and do everything he was supposed to. Everyone else, however, has no idea where they're going to be in the next five minutes. Sure, you could make a decision to leave work, and go out and get a new job. But God knew I would be writing this article, that you would be reading it right now, and how you would react to it. You can't fool him, or mess up his plan - it's laid in such a way that he even knows how people will respond to his movement on Earth.

So, yeah, your fate is sealed. Absolutely. But not because someone else decided it for you - you decide what that fate will be. But God already knows what that final decision will be.
14,636 views 106 replies
Reply #1 Top
This the same God that created me?
Reply #2 Top
Jythier, I found this article to be very insightful and marked it as such.

Almighty God knows everything--- past, present and future. That He knows every little detail of what we choose to do or not do , the fact that He has knowledge of it doesn't make us do it or not do it.

Knowledge doesn't cause an event, rather the event causes knowledge. An example would be becasue John Doe is running, I know that he is running. But he certainly isn't running becasue I know it.

Concerning God and destiny, the only destiny human souls are meant by GOd to attain is a destiny of eternal happiness...and every single soul is able to attain eternal happiness. But man's destiny is in his own keeping that is every one of us is endowed with free will.

We could say life is a journey of making choices. It's our choice to be good and do good and avoid evil or not. On the topics of destiny and free will, the Church contents herself with the advice which CHrist gave when He said, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, if he suffers the loss of his soul? Seek first the kingdom of God and His justice. "



Reply #3 Top
OckhamsRazro

Yes. Same God that created me created you. Who knew He was so diverse?

Lula:

Every soul HAD the ability to attain eternal life, but not all exercised the ability, and God knew whether they would or not.
Reply #4 Top
I once had this discussion with my priest.  He was not able to explain it to me.  I will comment more later, but I have to say I do not agree with you totally (but do have to read it again and think on it more).
Reply #5 Top
That seems a little mean. (understatement)

Who knew He was so diverse?


Well, if one accepts the dogma that before the universe, there was only God, he wasn't DI-verse at all....he was all that existed. Nothing to compare himself to. He was UNI-verse, not DI-verse.

For that same reason, he can be proven to be perfect, because if you're all that exists, how can you not be?

Anyway, so God is proven perfect. Cool. And so we're back to my first sentence up there. What you're saying makes God out to be pretty horrible.

Because it means that God deliberately created some people knowing full well and ahead of time that they weren't going to make the grade. That means some people were purposely created to suffer - FOREVER. It seems a bit inane to consider we have free will. If I had free will and knew that that is how things were going to work, I'd just say "No thanks, big guy...I'll take my chances with never existing at all. Thanks for the choice.

I'd say the grand majority of even semi-literate and above in intellect people decide NOT to sleep with their brother or sister (or other close relatives) Forget the social issues with it, and that it probably seems gross (I'm an only child, so I'm guessing.) Why don't they aside from that? Because they know full well of the genetic difficulties involved in that. You might accidentally create a human who's going to do nothing but suffer from some abnormality all their lives. And that's enough to stop *most* humans. I wonder what it would take for God to stop cranking out souls at a massive rate knowing for a FACT that this guy or that gal was going to suffer for eternity to pay for the crimes they weren't saved of (through lack of Jesus for whatever reason) that they committed in a mere 70-100 years in a universe that fundies say is 10,000 years old. The punishment doesn't really fit the crime. Especially considering the ultimate crime was bringing that poor fool into existence in the first place.

Murderers that are proven to do so with forethought receive stiffer penalties when caught. Where's that leave God? If he created me knowing I was going to pull the proverbial trigger, and did so willfully, then I'm just a smoking gun that he's holding.

If I bake a cake, and it doesn't turn out perfect, that's my fault. I messed something up. But it's impossible for some being that is perfect to ever mess up. That's the definition of perfection, no? Never messes up. If I deliberately put sardines in the cake knowing full well ahead of time that it's not going to be a good cake, you think I'm guilt free? Well yeah, because Ock bakes in mysterious ways...

But if I ever tell someone I'm going to take them to get a really cool present, but they have to be blindfolded, and then I lead them onto the tracks to be killed or maimed by a speeding train, completely on purpose, knowing full well exactly what was going to happen, I'll at least know it wasn't a mean thing to do. That person could have chosen to refuse the blindfold, so it's their own fault. And who is to question the mysterious ways of Ock, anyway?

I'm going to go with a different thought. If there's a God, he IS perfect. And no mistakes were made. And though many things seem atrocious to us here, there's a reason for it all, and everyone is exactly how they are supposed to be. I guess I give him more credit than most.

This is why I'm not a Christian. If I'm more forgiving than God is, something is terribly wrong.
Reply #6 Top
I will look forward to your counterpoints, Dr. Guy!
Reply #7 Top
God is perfectly forgiving, Ock. He is willing to forgive everyone for whatever they have done, except one thing - rejecting His Son. He will not forgive that, after what His Son went through for you.

He created people knowing full well that some of them would reject His Son, and some of them would accept His Son. It was worth it to Him to create that many people so that He could exist forever with those who would accept Him. He does not care to exist forever with those who do not accept Him, of their own volition. But, perhaps you're overlooking an overarching purpose for those who do not become saved. They absolutely must be necessary for some purpose, but I will not claim to know what it is - only that, no matter how many people were created, the differences between us would still be there, and some people would not be saved. Just look at Cain and Able - the first brothers. The first two people, and they knew all about God because Adam and Eve told them, from first-hand experience - and still, Cain did not follow God. 4 people in the world, and already 1 non-believer. So, I think He could not have just made people who loved Him - but He could make SOME people who loved Him out of a multitude of people. A percentage. So that's what He did.
Reply #8 Top
He created people knowing full well that some of them would reject His Son, and some of them would accept His Son. It was worth it to Him to create that many people so that He could exist forever with those who would accept Him. He does not care to exist forever with those who do not accept Him, of their own volition.


Let's think about this. The whole God's plan thingy. If God had a plan, knowing how things turn out, what's the point? It makes him a wacko gamer. He creates beings who are obviously flawed according to this scenario, and then he watches to see how his creations fail or succeed? Oh, and because he needs company he stacks the deck by creating lots of folks? Sick joke or absurdist drama? Oy, we are to praise such a him?

And then there's the love the guy you fear thingy. What's up with that?

I don't think I'll ever get this theology of yours. It makes me think we create an image of God in the images we both fear and desire regarding ourselves.


Be well.

Reply #9 Top
A being with infinite power over you is something to be feared, but He is so beautiful in his mercy to us that we must love Him.

Well, what's the point of anything? What's the point of living, Sodaiho? The major difference between your Buddhism and my Christianity is the focus - I couldn't see it before in the difference between 'do no harm' and 'love thy neighbor', but I see it now. Buddhism is focused on the self - getting yourself to such a state where you can exist forever in Nirvana. Yes, this involved other people, but the focus is self.

Christianity focuses on others - on Jesus, on relationships with other believers and reaching non-believers.

If I could make a million dollars, knew I could do it, and that my quality of life would be better afterwards, I would still do it. The point would be to improve the quality of life. I think that might be part of the reason it was worth it to God to create life. It was for HIS glory. To improve the quality of HIS existence.

He's not just watching us succeed or fail - He is calling us to success, His definition of success.
Reply #10 Top
And then there's the love the guy you fear thingy. What's up with that?


It's not fear as in afraid but as in fear as in awe. It's like a small child who loves his dad but there's that level of fear as in respect for his dad, that fear as in not to disappoint him because he loves him.

Jythier

I'm up to my neck right now on this subject as it's very big right now around here. I'm very, very big on predestination or election. I don't believe there's anyway to get around it when you read scripture. For many they want to believe in the freewill for salvation bit because it makes them feel they've done something to contribute when in fact, it's all God....not man.

Even in the denomination I now attend most are freewillers and it drives me crazy because I know it's unbiblical. While I can easily explain the "freewill" scriptures they bring up, they are at a loss to explain the very clear God's sovereignty ones and instead will refer you to another scripture to back up their belief. They always do this. Always. Because they can't explain it.

For instance one I like to use is John 1:13 which says:

"Which were born NOT of blood, NOR of the will of the flesh NOR of the will of man, but of God."

I put it this way:

God chooses...regeneration
God calls....gospel
We respond....belief
We follow....obedience

Since we are "dead" in our sins we can do nothing until God regenerates or breathes life into our hearts.....what can a dead man do?

We can have quite the discussion on this topic Jythier.



Reply #11 Top
We can! And we have the free will to do so, too! Or was it predestined to happen?
Reply #12 Top
If God had a plan, knowing how things turn out, what's the point? It makes him a wacko gamer.


no it makes Him a God whose attributes were meant to be used....in this case his biggest attribute is love. He created us out of love. His desire is to have a people for his name to love. It's not about us loving God so much as it is about him wanting and desiring to love us.

And of course he knows the ending from the beginning...He's God afterall...would we expect anything else from God?

He creates beings who are obviously flawed according to this scenario, and then he watches to see how his creations fail or succeed?


no, he created human beings to be perfect in the first place. He didn't create them flawed. It was their exercising of their freewill in disobedience that made them flawed. They had a choice to obey and keep sin out of the scenerio or disobey and let it in. They chose to let it in...and we've been flawed ever since. Since God knew this would happen He also provided an answer for us right from the get go and of course you know the rest of the story.

I don't think I'll ever get this theology of yours.


hahahh you know of all the theologies out there, this is the simplist...God created us to have a relationship with him, we screwed up and therefore broke connection with our creator, he made restitution for us, relationship is restored for those who accept his offer of restitution, we are once again walking and talking with him like Adam and Eve were way back when this all started.

Actually if you just read the first 11 chapters of Genesis, you've got the whole story including plan of redemption. Everything is in those first 11 chapters. The rest of the bible is basically repetivie with diff characters and examples of what life is like when we either obey or disobey God and practical advice to help us day to day.



Reply #13 Top
I have to disagree. I believe that God gave us free will precisely so that He wouldn't know what we will choose to do, otherwise the entire Eden thing was nothing more than a very cruel joke and I refuse to believe that He is that cruel.

I do not believe that He knows what any of us will choose to do from one moment to the next. The concept of God knowing everything that will happen in the future is a man made concept and is contradictory to everything we know about time and space. The idea of God manipulating events in a way that spans a long amount of time indicates a vast intelligence, which I don't have a problem with, but is not the same as a God who actually knows the future. There are a number of events described in the bible that indicate that things did not happen as God intended although many Christians will say that it's exactly what God knew would happen even though that defies common sense.

I do believe in God, but I do not believe in this modern day God that most Christians try to depict. If anything I believe that our entire universe is nothing more than an experiment that He is conducting. Many phrases in Genesis would tend to support this idea. "He saw that it was good" doesn't indicate a being that already knew the result but rather one that was pleased with the unsure result.
Reply #14 Top
Once upon a time, even way before Jesus, we didn't have science. There was no way to explain anything at all. Why did the rain stop falling? Why are our crops not growing? And people feared they had angered the Gods and composed all manner of rites and whatnot to try and make them happy again. They had faith, just like you, J. If they just did X, Y, and Z, the Gods would be happy and let them keep scratching out an existence.

Gods, Chapter 6

But then it happened, after seven years of plenty of everything, that things went wrong,
2 As they often do,
3 And there wasn't any rain, and the crops were pitiful,
4 And the game got scarce,
5 And one of the neighboring tribes invaded the valley, and took away most of the virgins, as well as plenty of heads and other body parts,
6 Whereupon the apes cried out angrily to the priests, saying,
7 "Hey, we don't understand this at all.
8 What about all the food and weapons and body parts we've given to the Gods?
9 Have they forgotten about us already?
10 "Honestly, we're very discouraged by the whole thing."
11 The priests considered the words of the tribe carefully,
12 For about six weeks,
13 Which was way too long,
14 But at last the priests triumphantly announced that they had the answer,
15 And the people crowded around to listen, saying,
16 "This had better be good."
17 So the priests cried aloud, in a high, shaky voice, saying,
18 "The Gods have become bored with your offerings,
19 "Which are puny and insignificant, consisting of little more than food and weapons and body parts, and every once in a while a virgin.
20 "The Gods need more than small change if they are to go on giving you rain and crops and so forth."
21 "Well, then, what do they want?" asked the tribe, and beads of sweat stood out on their forehead.
22 They want monuments and temples, made of stone, with plenty of writing on them, singing the praises of the Gods, as well as prayers and idols and that sort of thing."
23 "What is writing?" asked the tribe. "We have not heard of this before. Is it hard to get? Does it involve killing?"
24 But the priests smiled broadly and replied, "Writing is not hard at all. It does not involve killing, but you'll like it anyway."
25 And then the tribe was well content, saying,
26 "We'll get right to it, then. But what is a temple?"
27 And the priests smiled, saying, "Don't worry. We'll explain everything as we go."
Reply #15 Top
OCKHAMSrAZOR POSTS:
Murderers that are proven to do so with forethought receive stiffer penalties when caught. Where's that leave God? If he created me knowing I was going to pull the proverbial trigger, and did so willfully, then I'm just a smoking gun that he's holding.


In this scenario, you ask where does this leave God. This is an old and difficult question to answer with our limited intelligence we cannot ever expect to comprehend God who is incomprehensible.

Even though God is able to know of or "see" the murder, and World Wars, and everything for that matter, He may not be held to have determined them. God didn't forecause the murder or the World Wars.

The blame falls entirely upon man, upon the misuse of the power to determine the course he would follow. That man has power of choosing between good and evil is beyond a question of reasonable doubt for all of our family, economic, and social relations are based on that principle.

If man did not have free will nor a responsible being, God would not have set down precepts for him to follow, nor would He have warned him to do this or not do that through the Commandments.

God's foreknowledge doesn't interfere with man's use of his free will. Our actions don't take place becasue God has foreknowledge of them, and so foresees that they will take place. We can't blame God for murder or World Wars just becasue He foreknows that they will happen. The blame lies in man's misuse of God's gift of free will and of his liberty of action.

In short, God made the man, the man made himself a murderer.
Reply #16 Top
OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

Because it means that God deliberately created some people knowing full well and ahead of time that they weren't going to make the grade. That means some people were purposely created to suffer - FOREVER. It seems a bit inane to consider we have free will. If I had free will and knew that that is how things were going to work, I'd just say "No thanks, big guy...I'll take my chances with never existing at all. Thanks for the choice.


If I understand you correctly, you are describing predestination to Hell. The Catholic Chruch has condemned as straight out heresy that God has predestined any soul to eternal suffering. The only destiny human souls are meant by God to attain is a destiny of eternal happiness and every single soul is able to attain everlasting life.

To every one, God gives sufficient grace and every man can be saved by corresponding with it. He warns us all by conscience and by His Commandments against the very things that could destroy our eternal happiness. He wouldn't warn us against these things that take us Hell if He wanted us to go there.

Man's destiny is in his own keeping. If any soul is lost--forever---it will be due to his own his own fault and the result of his own choice of evil which he is not compelled to make, for which he is fully responsible, which God forbids, and of which he does not repent before death.

Man is capable of resisting that grace and losing his soul. If he does, he will justly reap the fruit of his own evil choice by eternal suffering. It's up to each one of us to avoid choosing evil, repent of past sins, and live our life in virtue.
Reply #17 Top
Mason, Reply #13
I have to disagree. I believe that God gave us free will precisely so that He wouldn't know what we will choose to do, otherwise the entire Eden thing was nothing more than a very cruel joke and I refuse to believe that He is that cruel.


I think Mason's whole response is very close to how I believe as well. I will add to that my thought that God cannot know what is not reality. The future has not happened (or if you believe in the quantum theory - every possible future will happen in a different reality).

He knows all, but cannot know what has not happened. Today I decide to kill someone. At the moment of pulling the trigger, I stop and decide not to. He knows of my intent, but not my last minute misgivings until that moment, so he does not know if my victim is going to die or not. Only that I intended to kill the victim. If he does know of my last minute decision, then as Mason indicated, I really had no choice in the matter. from the moment of my conception, I was destined to commit or not commit murder. Thus I really had no choice in the matter.

When we talk about god being omniscience, we talk about him knowing all that is knowable. What I will do tomorrow is not knowable since - with the concept of free will - I do not know today what I will do at that time.

Not knowing the future is not contradictory to omniscience.
Reply #18 Top
Dr. Guy:

How can you say you have no choice when you just made 2? You decide to kill someone, and then you decide not to. Two decisions. In movies (not the best source, I know) all the time they have people pointing guns at other people, who say "I know you don't have it in you to kill me." Why wouldn't God have that knowledge beforehand? His knowledge is so boundless that he knows everything that is going to happen as well as what has happened and what is happening currently. Again, he doesn't force us to make those choices. He just knows what you will choose. YOU have the choice.
Reply #19 Top
How can you say you have no choice when you just made 2? You decide to kill someone, and then you decide not to. Two decisions. In movies (not the best source, I know) all the time they have people pointing guns at other people, who say "I know you don't have it in you to kill me." Why wouldn't God have that knowledge beforehand? His knowledge is so boundless that he knows everything that is going to happen as well as what has happened and what is happening currently. Again, he doesn't force us to make those choices. He just knows what you will choose. YOU have the choice.


I did make 2 choices. That until those choices were made, were unknown. That is my point. Until we make the choice, God cannot know. He knows we are at a juncture and a choice is about to be made, but since the choice has not been made, he cannot know the outcome. No one can, since the outcome does not exist at this point in time. Omniscience is often mistaken for many things. But it simply is all knowledge of facts. Something that has not happened is therefore not a fact, and not part of omniscience.

Free will means that God does not know how we will decide. Only that we must. He hopes that we decide correctly, but then he did give Satan/Evil equal dominion over the world so that man could chose between the 2. But if he already knows the outcome of the game, the game is a sham and not being played, but rather staged.
Reply #20 Top
If I understand you correctly, you are describing predestination to Hell.


Actually, that was Jythier that described that.

So, yeah, your fate is sealed.


To every one, God gives sufficient grace and every man can be saved by corresponding with it. He warns us all by conscience and by His Commandments against the very things that could destroy our eternal happiness. He wouldn't warn us against these things that take us Hell if He wanted us to go there.


This "he" has never said 'boo' to me. I do not count books that part of wound up on the cutting room floor according to the choices of Constantine.

And let's go there. Most folks then claim "Oh, well it was divinely inspired...the parts in the Bible are meant to be there, and the stuff that was cut out were meant NOT to be there. It was God's will...he inspired Constantine what to keep and what to throw out."

Then he tampered. Then our will is not free...it's a stacked deck of cards.

Why do I bother with logic? God is perfect, and he gave me this brain, and I'm using it to think with...not parroting something that was told to me. I do that because the question arose in me "What if there were a person that grew up somewhere that had absolutely no access to Jesus Christ. What happens to them? And my inner response was "You must be able to come up with an answer that saves you regardless of your level of exposure - otherwise God is the biggest asshole ever known."

Reply #21 Top
Again, your analogy of a game falls down. In a game, you often are able to play better and win by predicting the moves of the opposing players. As humans, we often get it wrong. But God is perfect - he doesn't get it wrong. His predictions always come true, not because he predicted them, but because he knows YOU, Dr. Guy, so well that He knows which path you'll choose.
Reply #22 Top
God's foreknowledge doesn't interfere with man's use of his free will. Our actions don't take place becasue God has foreknowledge of them, and so foresees that they will take place.


So he foresees actions that will be bad, but creates us to take those actions anyway? Smoking gun. Let me explain something. I did NOT create myself. If I had, I'd be able to fly and do lots of other cool things. And if some other entity did create me, then my actions/responses are his responsibility. They are a direct result of the quality of his creation. This entire universe is God's creation, and he's the one that needs to answer for how it turns out. Period. Who in the world would throw a piece of paper into a fire and then get really really mad that the paper burned away? Only a complete and utter moron, and if there's a God, I just can't imagine him/her being a moron. Like I said - I give far more credit than you do.

Sorry. I don't buy any of this stuff. It makes no sense.
Reply #23 Top
He foresees actions that will be bad, but He also foresees actions that will be good. It was worth it for Him to create the bad along with the good. And, while God does not have anybody to answer to, you have a creator that you answer to. He created you and knew, as He did, that you would of your own free will reject him (at least to this point, I don't know what is going to happen beyond now - He does). Not only that, but He knew that you were worth creating for some reason completely unknown to me. You have value to Him, Ock, that's why he created you. Because you are there, something happened that would not have happened without you, and people were saved because of it.
Reply #24 Top

Again, your analogy of a game falls down. In a game, you often are able to play better and win by predicting the moves of the opposing players. As humans, we often get it wrong. But God is perfect - he doesn't get it wrong. His predictions always come true, not because he predicted them, but because he knows YOU, Dr. Guy, so well that He knows which path you'll choose.

Actually the analogy of the game is dead on.  For if he KNOWS me perfectly, then I am predestined (or programmed) from conception.  I have no free will.  But if I can surprise him - as I think Mason pointed out, many in the bible did surprise him - then he cannot know with certainty what I will decide.  Can he know me better than anyone else?  Assuredly, for that is intuition.  But he cannot know what I have not done since I have not done it.

It is a sticky wicket that you create once you give to God the absolute assurity of Precognition.  In some cases it is easy for God and man to guess the outcome.  We rely on tell tale signs of current or past practices.  But then there is that instance when your opponent goes against all that he is and has done, and fools all people.  Because it was not predictable.  Again, until a deed is done, it is not a fact, and there is nothing to "know".

Some beleive in God's ability to know all about the future, and in some instances he does - that of the destination of mankind.  But as the study of mobs has shown, if you get a large enough sample size, then you can predict mobs based upon human psychology.  However, predicting the actions of A man is impossible since free will means he can change his mind on a dime.  And often does.  God does not tamper with free will - it is probably the most important precept of the Christian God (just as Paul said the most important commandment was Love they neighbor as thyself).  Since from Free will, he is able to test us to see if we are worthy.  If he already knows, then there is no need for tests - why test Job?  He already knew?  yet he did not.  He does not.  He knows all that is knowable. 

 

Reply #25 Top
You have value to Him, Ock, that's why he created you. Because you are there, something happened that would not have happened without you, and people were saved because of it.


So I'm an unknowing slave to his will, but my reward is hell anyway? Nice guy.

YOU are not all knowing. Maybe what I'm here to do is scrape the crust off of your third eye and it will be a sin if you don't listen....can you say with surety this is NOT the case?