It's clearly something designed to be exclusive and difficult to grasp, wouldn't you agree, if one is not able to understand the meaning or truth in the Scriptures without having a certain mindset?

Not really. If you are looking for the Truth, then you will find it. I had a girl in my room last week who argued left and right with me about why teenagers do drugs (her reason was that ALL parents were abusive); and she then continued on with saying one out of every two girls are abused by their teenage years. I argued with her and tried to prove her wrong....which she was on both accounts...yet she failed to grasp the truth and stuck to her own beliefs...because they were based on what she has seen and heard from others (ie....many of her friends are druggies and many of them have been abused). If you are looking for your own version of the Truth...then you will often skip Christianity and keep on looking until you find whatever fits what you are looking for. When people talk about Christianity...they talk like the following: "Im not a Christian because I..." "Im not a Christian Because I dont agree" "Im not a Christian Because God didnt help me out when I needed it" Me Me Me. People, when they talk about their walk in life and finding a faith to follow...they always talk about how they match the X belief because of something that they agree or don't agree with themselves. They have a mindset of "I want something that accepts me for who I am and lets me do whatever I want and agrees with everything I beleive"

Not really. If you are looking for the Truth, then you will find it.

You're still putting forth that same argument...that understanding Scriptures requires a mindset of eager acceptance (or Holy intervention).

I had a girl in my room last week who argued left and right with me about why teenagers do drugs (her reason was that ALL parents were abusive); and she then continued on with saying one out of every two girls are abused by their teenage years. I argued with her and tried to prove her wrong....which she was on both accounts...

Eek. What class were you teaching?

You're still putting forth that same argument...that understanding Scriptures requires a mindset of eager acceptance (or Holy intervention).

understanding the scriptures of God shouldnt be a rocket science. It is also not supposed to be easy. Its something that requires one to think a bit about themselves and their lives; which is why many people dont follow it, because they feel it is too constrictive. He made it so all could read and learn from it.

Eek. What class were you teaching?

I wasn't teaching a class. Kids are sent to my room if they break the school rules or their teachers can't handle them (ie...they are disruptive, misconduct, profanity...etc). When I said she was wrong...I didnt mean she was totally wrong as far as her viewpoints...but I certainly don't believe that 50% of girls have been abused by their teenage years....although I know it is a large percentage....but it is not 50%. I also know that some people do drugs to escape from family circumstances...but I think that is not the main reason why they do it.

I'm reading a book written by two Muslim brothers raised in OHIO that left Islam.

They were raised in Ohio KFC. That means they were exposed to a lot of christianity all around them. Can't you admit that a whole heck of a lot more American kids get exposed to christianity than in the middle East or India? I would say that Americans then have a big advantage in knowing about and learning about Jesus. Why would that be?

Me Me Me

I have a question for you: why are you following the Christian path? Why are you refraining from having sex before marriage? Don't say it's because the bible tell yolu not to, because the bible tells you to do/not do a whole lot of stuff that we regularly ignore. Why are you living what you consider to be a godly and holy life?

I'd guess it's because of the promise of eternal life in heaven. The bible says that the righteous won't get their rewards in this life, but in the next....so I'd say it's all about YOUR salvation. YOUR redemption. So, before you go on about 'me me me', I'd take a look at what you're doing and why. Because I'm pretty sure you're not doing it for altruistic reasons.

Its something that requires one to think a bit about themselves and their lives; which is why many people dont follow it, because they feel it is too constrictive. He made it so all could read and learn from it.

So, you're saying that everyone can read and learn, and KFC's saying that the unbeliever's won't understand and it's designed so's they won't? Hmm. Are you SURE you're both of the same faith?

Oh, and here's something for you both: I understand it. I even taught it. I quit, because I didn't believe that which I was imparting upon others. I understand it, but I don't believe it.

So, which category do I fall into?

Those are the questions of the ages, aren't they.

If the Holy Bible was meant to be taken literally, the books of Isaiah, Psalms, Song of Solomon and Revelation wouldn't have been included.

Shovelheat also made a great point. Jesus taught in parables, so why would we think the word of God wouldn't do the same?

"Ever learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3:7) Pretty much anwers the question (at least for me). You can know the Holy Bible backwards and forewards, but if all you get from it is intellectual knowledge, it's just a book.

The Holy Bible is the word of God, but it isn't God.

Oh, and I take nothing that's written in the bible literally. I look at it as being more like Aesop's Fables than a literal, blow-by-blow account. I think that it's when people start trying to take it literally that they run into problems and start looking for hidden messages because what they're reading makes no sense. It's a book, it was written by aging men 70 years after the fact (and that's just the New Testament; some of the old was written much longer afterwards), and it's incomplete. It's no wonder people don't understand it.

I think we were separated at birth.    Except I relate the bible to Canterbury Tales instead of Aesop's Fables.  They have great stories and teachings, but should be taken literally. 

See, we can't understand it without his opening our eyes. I tell non Christians to try asking for this understanding for a month and read the book of John while doing so. God says those that seek me will find me. It's like a lightbulb goes on.

I tried.  Boy, did I try.  There was a point in my life that I *wanted* to believe.  I wanted to connect with "god" and feel the safety net that Christians feel.  I read the bible.  I studied the bible.  I talked to Christians.  I attended my ex-fiance's church with his parents (he was in the military at the time, and it was during the Gulf War).  You know what happened in the end?  I ended up believing in it even less because I knew more about it than I previously did.  I tried for almost a year to "find" god.  In the end, I was more agnostic than ever.  So, I went back to meditation and my path to enlightenment.  Christianity was not the end of my journey.

My two cents:

The Bible has undergone so many translations and retranslations that it's hard to accept it at its face value. Plus there are scientific inaccuracies that prevent me from accepting it as definitive fact. (Like classifying bats as birds on the banned foods list in the OT, just to name one of many.)

That being said, I do believe in the Creation and I do believe in Christ's literal death and the reality of the resurrection. So while it is not infallible, it should be taken with a grain (or a pound) of salt.

I have a question for you: why are you following the Christian path? Why are you refraining from having sex before marriage? Don't say it's because the bible tell yolu not to, because the bible tells you to do/not do a whole lot of stuff that we regularly ignore. Why are you living what you consider to be a godly and holy life?

I wasn't searching for it. Sort of like the song...I was lost and now Im found. If anything, I was trying to avoid Him. I had no plan or purpose in my life. After going to church a few times with my mom at her Assemblies church, like I said before, it freaked me out because I saw Christians in a totally different way than I had before. They were filled with something I had not seen before. I wasn't brainwashed, like others claimed. The more I attended, the more at peace I felt, the more I felt I had a actual purpose and reason for being here. Also...like I said before, I can't explain how I have been changed.

As far as sex before marriage...why? Why do I need to have sex with someone before I am married to them? Without a marriage, there is no commitment outside of someone saying 'I love you,' which often is said before there is any meaning in it anyways. Sex is something that (from the Christian perspective) God has created...he created the world and everything in it and it is a way of showing love to another and can be something that when done inside a Christian marriage, can be something that God can bless. What would the reason be to do that outside of a marriage bond that has Christ at its center? Just to have sex?

I'd guess it's because of the promise of eternal life in heaven. The bible says that the righteous won't get their rewards in this life, but in the next....so I'd say it's all about YOUR salvation. YOUR redemption. So, before you go on about 'me me me', I'd take a look at what you're doing and why. Because I'm pretty sure you're not doing it for altruistic reasons.

Fear of God is a good thing...keeps us in check somewhat. I don't scream 'oh god dont let me burn in hell' kind of fear...but its a fear that I am obedient to his will, plan, design, and purpose for my life. I don't fear the government either...I just know that if I mess up...Im going to be in trouble. If I follow Gods will for my life and do what I am asked...I will be blessed. Im not doing it for myself or for eternity...Im doing it because that is what he asks and if I follow him and his will for my life...then he will reward me for following him. My salvation is based on following God and acknowleging that I am a sinner and need his forgiveness in my life. If I do that, admit that I am helpless without him...then he will guide me and protect me in my life. I don't give my money in Tithe at service...but I give back the first 10% of my income and increase towards what God has given me so that others may find salvation, by doing so...by giving money that I really cant afford to give...I am obedient and am blessed by God for following his word. I don't go and help build churches in other countries for my own benefit...but so that others may find salvation and an eternal life with Christ.

So, you're saying that everyone can read and learn, and KFC's saying that the unbeliever's won't understand and it's designed so's they won't? Hmm. Are you SURE you're both of the same faith?

Yep, we are. She said that we dont understand it without God opening our eyes. Many times, we can read something and reread it and reread it over and over and it still doesnt make sense...then later on, we read it agian and it is perfectly clear.

Oh, and here's something for you both: I understand it. I even taught it. I quit, because I didn't believe that which I was imparting upon others. I understand it, but I don't believe it. So, which category do I fall into?

Well if you understand, but don't believe...then you are an unbeliever. Can't really think "I know what he is talking about...but I dont believe it...so I quit...I don't want to do what he wants me to do...so Im going to do it my way...Im going to do my own thing and hope he is happy with that." Well...actually you can think that...but God doesnt say in his Word that you can do whatever you want and still gain entry into eternity with Him.

So, those of you who are christians but don't take the bible literally, does your heart and mind guide you in knowing the parts that are solid truths for you and the parts, as singrdave said, that should be taken with a grain of salt?

So, those of you who are christians but don't take the bible literally, does your heart and mind guide you in knowing the parts that are solid truths for you and the parts, as singrdave said, that should be taken with a grain of salt?

Actually, no.  And that is why many people think that Catholics are Heretics  or something.  We have a creed which we believe in.  It encompass many of the teachings of the bible, but not a literal reading of it.  As a Religion, we beleive the Bible to be a teaching guide and one that should be listened to for the lessons.  But not to be taken literally.  Here is an example.

In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus fed the masses with 5 fish and a few loaves of bread.  And then had 12 baskets of food left over.

Did he really?  No, for what probably happened, was that when the apostles started passing out the food, others, who had brought food, shared with everyone as well.  So that when everyone had eaten their fill, there was plenty left over.  We read that to mean that a demonstration of charity will elicit an inkind response from others.  Basically, do as I do.

JillUser:

So, those of you who are christians but don't take the bible literally, does your heart and mind guide you in knowing the parts that are solid truths for you and the parts, as singrdave said, that should be taken with a grain of salt?

This may seem like a cop out, but I don't think it matters. I mean, I doubt salvation is based on how well we can do in a Bible Trivial Pursuit game. The point of the Bible is to help us understand the age old questions of "who are we", "why are we here" and "what happens after this life is over"? Understanding who we are, and how the atonement of Jesus Christ affects us that matters. That doesn't come through simply studying the words in the Bible. That comes with opening our hearts and minds to God.

Jesus was never quoted as saying anything like "if you love me, learn every detail of the Bible and know the difference between hard facts and parable". He is quoted as saying, "If you love me, feed my sheep" as well has "I am the way, the truth and the light".

I think "Christians"--and I use that term loosely because my definition of Chrisitanity is much more exclusive than incluse--really do non-Christians a disservice by having a list full of "rules" to abide by that aren't in the Bible and by speaking "church talk" to people who don't understand "church talk".

Sound like pharisees to me.

So what about the people who are born in Muslim areas of the world. Is God making it more difficult for them to find Jesus? Why would our creator favor people of some parts of the land over others? If you were born in India and started out in a Hindu temple rather than a christian church, how would that effect your path to God? That is one of my big questions about the exclusivity of christianity.

"...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- hit eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20

Creation testifies to the fact that God exists.


The Bible definitely speaks about God opening individuals' eyes to the Truth. In other cases, God hardens hearts and people will not see. This seems harsh at first glance, but when you go on to read "You will seek me and you will find me when you seek me with your whole heart"... I guess it's in the motivation. Whether or not we will see and understand lies in the heart... Coming from a calvin-like perspective, my tendency would be to go a step further and say that only those God has called WILL truly seek Him with their whole hearts... and not give up until they find Him... but that's for another debate entirely. *s*

I believe the Bible to be literal AND symbolic. It's full of different genres... and each must be read in light of the category it falls into. I don't read an epistle the same way I read a book of prophecy... Often times, I think there is BOTH a literal and a symbolic interpretation. God often uses the physical to illustrate spiritual principles for us. I don't think that means that the events didn't literally happen... but that they DID happen, and there is added significance to them that points to a spiritual concept God is trying to teach me.

The last thing I want is for my understanding of Scripture to sound arrogant, though. There is SO much that I DON'T know... the more I learn, the more ignorant I realize I really am. *s* Kind of like growing in my relationship with Christ. The closer I get to His cross... the more wretched I realize I am compared to His holiness. It makes me even more grateful for my salvation.

Great thread, Jill... thanks for posing the questions!

So, those of you who are christians but don't take the bible literally, does your heart and mind guide you in knowing the parts that are solid truths for you and the parts, as singrdave said, that should be taken with a grain of salt?

I think that's a very good question, Jill. How do Christians choose which parts to take literally and which parts should be viewed as metaphors or symbolism?

When I was Christian, I looked at it pretty much like SingrDave described. And generally I shied away from things that I felt were too confusing or seemed metaphorical (for example, Revelation) because I felt that the most important thing was to focus on the Scriptures that I felt pertained directly to salvation.

Dr Guy, I have had some bad experiences with catholisism but it sounds like you have a good take on things. It is all of the man made rules and pomp and circumstance of the church that I have problems with.

The point of the Bible is to help us understand the age old questions of "who are we", "why are we here" and "what happens after this life is over"?

I agree ParaTed, I just wish I felt it helped me do that.

"...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- hit eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20

I can understand people around the planet "knowing" God. But that doesn't mean they know Jesus. That is the exclusivity of christianity. How do you know you should be seeking Jesus if you don't know he existed? Seeking God is different than accepting Jesus.

Great thread, Jill... thanks for posing the questions!

Thanks for answering!

The point of the Bible is to help us understand the age old questions of "who are we", "why are we here" and "what happens after this life is over"? I agree ParaTed, I just wish I felt it helped me do that.

and I wish it did for you also.

If I may be so bold, I'll ask you a question...

When you read and prayed, did you pray asking God if He exists and (if so) is the Bible His word? Or did you pray telling God that you believe in Him and that the Bible is His word?

You see, if you are trying to make God prove He exists, then there is no faith (which is essential). However, if your reading and prayers are done in faith then you are ready to receive an answer. "Faith preceeds the miracle". After all, if you're basically telling God that you will only believe in him if he proves Himself to you, did you ever really believe in Him at all?

I hope you accept that in the spirit it was meant.

Take a look at the bible. Read every page of it, every word of it and you'll notice some very strong recurring themes.

1. Man tries to over-complicate everything
2. Don't be a dick

In the beginning, God gave to Man a perfect paradise. There was one rule, and one rule only. Don't eat that apple. Simple really. Don't eat the apple and you have paradise. Now, I'm not saying to take the whole Eden thing literally, just that it's the first occurance of that first theme. Given one rule, and one rule only, we couldn't hack it. We figured there had to be something else, something deeper that we had to figure out, something we had to have. One simple rule and we couldn't hack it.

Then, after Man is out there in the world at large... you have everyone being complete and utter assholes. We're all a bunch of dicks. Enter Noah, the Ark and the great flood. God basically says don't be a dick, but we can't handle that and we're murdering, screwing bastards.

God gives Moses the Ten Commandments. Ten rules to live by. They all boil down to not being a dick. We've gone from 1 rule to 10 because we obviously need something more nuanced.

Then, it gets increasingly complicated. We get entire books of the bible listing out rules and guidelines on how to not be dicks.

Finally. God sends in Jesus. Jesus says "Hey, lets all be cool! Ya know, not be dicks?" He tries to tell us this as many ways as he can think of. What do we do? We are dicks and nail him to a cross. His disciples continue to try and spread the "Don't be a dick" message in as many ways as they can think of. Eventually the anti-dick guidelines are written down so people could reference them easier.

And so history marched on. And we're still dicks. And we're still trying to figure out what the hell is said in the bible. We look deeper and deeper for some secret meaning, some great revelation. We hide behind words that have been translated, truncated and mangled dozens of times throughout history to justify what we do and what we say as being OK with God. We're dicks every time we say "God hates..." or any time we engaged in a sort of holy war (war in the name of a supposedly loving God is just idiotic). But we make ourselves feel better by pulling out a Bible passage and going "Look! This says it makes it all ok!"

What is the Bible about? Love. Plain and simple. It's a several hundred page text on how to love and be loved. But if our entire existance, our entire relationship with God is reduced to one word... suddenly a lot of people are left out in the cold, a lot are exposed for paying lip service to something they didn't really believe in (even if they've convinced themselves they do).

If everyone followed the one simple rule of "Don't be a dick" the rest of the rules and regulations listed in the Bible would become largely moot. Sadly, we can't accept anything that simple, because God must be infinitely complex and his rules impossible to understand.

(Obviously I argue for the "generalist" view)

Dr Guy, I have had some bad experiences with catholisism but it sounds like you have a good take on things. It is all of the man made rules and pomp and circumstance of the church that I have problems with.

There is a lot less today, but we still get our money's worth!

I think there are 'SOME' literal aspects of it which parallel with the spiritual aspects.

Unfortunately context and full understanding has been neglected but I feel are much more important. Jesus showed that when talking about eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Yet many people use it still today for justification of capital punishment. Read the scriptures from OT that surround that verse you will find it is not talking about vengence! The other thing I see overlooked it the wholeness or full understanding of the scriptures. I am referring when Satan tempted Jesus with scripture as in Matt 4:6 or Luke 4:10 which are direct quotes from Psalms 91:11. Jesus quoted right back to him Deut 6:16.

The problem with taking it literal in the english language is that there are multiple definitions in an english word that we don't even realize. In Hebrew and Greek I beleive there is alot more literal than in the English only because of translation (ie misinterpretation).

Those are my thoughts.

Adventure Dude

There is a lot less today, but we still get our money's worth!

And I didn't even mention the money I remember having a catholic teacher who said there was one thing that puzzled her, when she was growing up she was told that if women didn't wear a hat and gloves to church they were being disrespectful to God and would be judged as such. Somehow that rule changed over time. So do all the hatless, gloveless women before get a "get out of purgatory free card" now?

Take a look at the bible. Read every page of it, every word of it and you'll notice some very strong recurring themes. 1. Man tries to over-complicate everything 2. Don't be a dick

Zoomba, you should write a "Bible for Dummies" guide

When you read and prayed, did you pray asking God if He exists and (if so) is the Bible His word? Or did you pray telling God that you believe in Him and that the Bible is His word?

I pray telling God that I believe in him and am keeping my eyes, ears and heart open for his guidance. I don't tend to ask yes or no questions I don't see how telling God the Bible is His word is going to make it so or make it make any more sense. If "seek and you shall find" is true, well, I'm seeking.

The bible is both literal and symbolic. You have to read it in context. I basically use the principle that "if it makes sense, seek no other sense."

A very wise principle.

I usually think of all the "facts" the Bible describes as symbolic, and all the rules the Bible mentions as meant to be understood literally (but with some interpretation).

I follow all the rules, I think, that make sense to me.

Im doing it because that is what he asks and if I follow him and his will for my life...then he will reward me for following him. My salvation is based on following God and acknowleging that I am a sinner and need his forgiveness in my life. If I do that, admit that I am helpless without him...then he will guide me and protect me in my life.

So it's all about YOUR reward. YOUR salvation. It's all about YOU. You're doing it for YOU.

Now do you understand why I found your comment about hearing 'me me me' seemed so hypocritical? Because you're doing the same thing....but because yours is under the banner heading of 'Christianity' and is what you consider to be 'God's will' then it's okay, right?

It's attitudes like that that made my decision to leave the church soooo much easier.

THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD,CREATOR OF ALL THE ENTITIES THAT BE,THIS IS JUST WHAT SATAN THE DEVIL,WANTS THOSE OF YOU 2 DO CONTEST ME AT EVERY LIITLE THING THAT COMES UP..IN GENESIS,THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED,I KNEW ADAM WOULD NOT FALL 4 SATANS' TRICKS..SATAN SAYS 2 ADAM,I CAN DO THIS NTHAT 2 YOU N YOU CAN DO IT 2 ME ALOS,ADAM SAID THAT JUST ISN'T NATURAL..SO I MAKE EVE,ONE DAY EVE IS OUT GALAVANTING IN THE PARK N CROSSES PATHS WITH THE SINISTER ONE,UNBEKNOWEST 2 HER,SO SLICK WILLY SAYS 2 EVE,I CAN THIS N THAT 2 YOU, N YOU CAN DO THIS N THAT 2 ME,OR WE CAN DO THIS ALSO,KNOWING NO BETTER SHE FALLS 4 HIS CUNNING TRICKS,PLUS CURIOUSITY KILLED THE CUNT..SO SATAN FUCKS EVE N IMPREGNATES HER,EVE GOES BACK HOME N SHOWS ADAM THE TRICK SHE LEARNT,YET ADAM DID NOT REALIZE 2 SAY HEY WHERE DID YOU ACQUIRE THIS KNOWLEDGE..ADAM IMPREGNATES EVE,SO EVE HAS TWINS ONE GOOD,N ONE EVIL,LATER IN LIFE THE EVIL ONE CAIN KILLED ABEL THE RIGHTEOUS ONE..SEX WAS THE SIN IN THE GARDEN,NOT THE FRUIT,UNLESS YOU USE THE TERM OF A VIRGIN "POP HER CHERRY,OR THE SHAPE OF THE PENIS WHICH RESEMBLES A FEW DIFFERENT KINDS OF FRUIT..THE CONCEPTION STATEMENT,IN GENESIS IS WHERE IT ALL STARTED..NOW MANY REASONS 4 THE DECEPTIONS,SINCE MY SON ONLY SPOKE OF ONE CHURCH NOT CHURCHES..PRESENTLY,I HAVE 2 SAY THAT 98% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION,IS THE SEED OF SATAN,FREEWILL N CHOICE IS 4 ALL AS THEY AGE,HOWEVER IT STARTS IN YOUR HEART BE IT ROTTEN OR PURE,WHICH SENDS BLOOD ALL OVER NEXT STOP,YOUR MIND-WHERE YOU WILL EITHER THINK RIGHT OR WRONG,WHICH GOES 2 SPEECH ,IN WHICH YOU WILL SPEAK TRUE OR FALSE,LEADING 2 YOUR ACTIONS,WHICH WILL BE GOOD OR BAD..MY CHRILDEN THIS IS THE STORY OF LIFE IN A NUTSHELL..PREDESTINATION IS A FACT,LONG BATTLES WERE FOUGHT,THE GREAT GULF CHASM WAS ORDERED SO THAT NOONE ANYMORE WILL BE FAKING THE FUNK THINKING THEY CAN FOOL THE 3 OF US N MANAGE 2 GET INTO PARADISE...I ONLY KNOW THOSE WITH A HEART THAT IS GOOD AS GOLD, N NOT SET ON EVIL INTENT CONSTANTLY..MY SON SPOKE OF OTHERS PEOPLES' DAD,INSISTING THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIS WORDS THAT CAME FROM ABOVE,WAS THAT OF THE DEVILS' CHILDREN,WHEREAS HE WAS THEN N IS STILL NOW A LIAR,THIEF,N A MURDER..NOW THE FAMILY TREE COMES IN,ALONG W/PREDESTINATION...WHO YOU ARE N WHAT YOU ARE WERE MADE KNOWN 2 ME IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM LONG B4 THE GARDEN SCENE...IT ONLY TAKES NOT EVEN 10 MINUTES 2 DETERMINE WHO SOMEONE IS BY THE WAY THAT THEY TALK N ACT,REMEMBER DEFILEMENT COMES FROM WITHIN,SOME ARE BORN WITH IT,SOME EARN IT MOST LIVE IT...WAKE-UP CHILDEN B4 IT IS 2 LATE THESE ARE THE TRUE TEACHINGS I MEANT....THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD,CREATOR OF HEAVEN N EARTH-PARIDISE N THE LAKE OF FIRE..THE SUN,THE MOON,THE STARS,THE UNIVERSE NOW N THAT WHICH IS SOON 2 COME...WILL YOU BE THER WE WILL SEE....L/O/L=LOTS OF LUCK...........