Personally...I just dont know how they can justify some of the things they do that arent taught in the Bible. There are many things that are done that I just wonder...why do they do that if its not in the Bible? Even if I was to think of the Bible merely as a reference tool...what other scriptures and teachings from God justify the various things done in the church today?

The Bible was never meant as a how to book.  It was a book of inspiration and history.  That is what it was created for, and that is what it is. I wrote this to clear up some misconceptions, not as a history of the Catholic Church.  I can delve into that if you would like at another time.

As for the ritual and pagentry, that has grown up over time.  Once the church moved into greater Europe, and started converting the pagans, it was done to keep them in line and keep some of the 'magic' that they had believed in.  But as people grew in awareness and spirituality, that was then stripped away.

You decry the parts of the mass and then list your own parts for your own religion - which by the way is nothing like the Lutherans or Episcopalians since their liturgy closely follows that of Catholocism - and then complain that perhaps - perhaps - Catholics have more steps?  There is a reason for each part of the liturgy as Mass is not only a time for fellowship, but a time for learning and rejoicing in the Spirit.

The Bible was written by man.  It may have been inspired by Jesus and God, but it was written and edited by man.  So that is why so many Gospels did not make it, and the 4 did.  As well as many of Paul's letters did not make it.  You take your entire faith on a wrok that is by definition fallible, and let no other factors influence you.  That is fine, that is what a lot of Christians do, and I will not tar them with a broad brush.  But by the same token, that does not make your faith any more valid than mine.  And that is where you are dead wrong.

It is time for you to learn about the faith of your birth.  Not to convert.  But so you can see with clear eyes instead of the prejudiced view you now hold.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, played as a child, learned as a child.  When I became a man, I put my childish ways away.  Time for you to do the same.

Wow....no WONDER there was a Protestant revolution.

If there had not been one, we would have had to invent it.  For the Church of the Middle ages was not a god-like institution!  But I for one am glad that it was reformed and is now the Church it is.  I could never be a Catholic, prior to Vatican II.  I am glad it happened in my life time, and now the Church is one I have faith in and believe in because it does make sense to me.  But it does not for all.

Now, you can argue that I could have just said I didn't want him to do it, but that would have been incredibly rude and a poor reflection on my m-i-l, so I just sat there in disbelief. He didn't ask me if he could or if I wanted him to...he just did it. It really bothered me. I felt violated

He should have asked, but in his defense, he just thought he was doing you a favor.  That does not make it right, and I am sorry for your experience.

If so, your Pentecostal and shacking up????? Well shacking up is NOT in the Bible. I wonder how many tongues your church would speak in if they knew about that.

Oops!

Hey Tex...maybe your MIL SET YOU UP!! She may have had this all worked out with the Priest before you even got there for your visit.

She knows your not Catholic, and maybe it bugs her that her grandkids aren't baptized so she had to get SOMETHING!



I only say that because its sounds like something that would happen in my family if the DIL wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak.

"At least we dont worship the king of england."

There is no King of England you stupid boy! Good true English Protestants worship God, not a bloody statue.

" the only thing that matters in Christianity is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Period."

That is incorrect, all true Christians must accept the one true Church of England.

England and St George.

I only say that because its sounds like something that would happen in my family if the DIL wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak.

But she is also the type that gives MILs a bad rep if that is true.

"At least we dont worship the king of england." There is no King of England you stupid boy! Good true English Protestants worship God, not a bloody statue.

I stand corrected.  The Queen of England.

Dr.Guy:

He should have asked, but in his defense, he just thought he was doing you a favor. That does not make it right, and I am sorry for your experience

No, I don't think he had any malicious intent. I'm sure he thought he was doing something wonderful for my family.

Tova:

Hey Tex...maybe your MIL SET YOU UP!! She may have had this all worked out with the Priest before you even got there for your visit.

Haha. The thought has crossed my mind.

She knows your not Catholic, and maybe it bugs her that her grandkids aren't baptized so she had to get SOMETHING!

She's very devout, and she is CONVINCED that she is right, but she's not really one to push it on others, thankfully.

I only say that because its sounds like something that would happen in my family if the DIL wasn't "up to snuff" so to speak.

That is incorrect, all true Christians must accept the one true Church of England.

Funny you should say that since they now ordain Gay Ministers.  Thought you were against them.  Or are you really secretly in love with Phoenixboi as he claims?

Reply By: kingbeePosted: Thursday, November 03, 2005 No, the Prayer is the Hail Mary, not Holy Mary. You dont have to like it, but that is what it is. I never said it did not have "holy Mary" in it. If you are going to criticize it, do it out of intelligence, not ignorance. take your own advice. the original comment didn't claim to be stating the name of any prayer...only the statement you jumped on in error. You just stepped into it. Hail Mary mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS that particular sentence (remember he didn't say a thing about it being the name of the prayer) is not 'hail mary mother of god, pray for us sinners' cuz it is 'holy mary mother of god, pray for us sinners.' but i'm so sure you're gonna try to dodge your way outta that i'm not gonna waste any time praying you could find the strength to admit you screwed up.

Kingbee, Dan has asked that his thread get back on topic, and as your comment fits in here better, I will answer you here with the following:

Reply By: Dr. GuyPosted: Thursday, November 03, 2005 jeezus drguy. you one of them people who race thru a rosary or penance by only saying the first half of that prayer? No, I am one of those guys that typed too fast.

If anyone wants more information on Catholic beliefs, here is a good website to check out. I am a non-practicing Catholic. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school but I do not agree with all of the church teaching. I still defend Catholics because when people talk about them they are talking about my grandma and my whole family. It does bother me when people bash Catholics. I guess that's the whole once a Catholic always a Catholic thing coming out.

Link


I just wish everyone could let everyone be happy in their own beliefs whether you agree with them or not.

That is not how it goes.

all righty...I must have been dilusional sitting through each and every service. Why dont you fill me in?

Uh, why dont you check out the Papal Succession. Who was the first pope? What did Jesus say? Some time? Would that be in Days or minutes?

uh...where does it talk about the office or qualifications of the pope? The Bible talks about Apostles, Bishops, Deacons and Elders...but not about the pope.

In all of the letters written to and from rome, the pope is never mentioned.

Did he act like a pope?

All apostles received direct guidance of the Holy Spirit - Acts 2:1-4; Ephesians 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.

Why would apostles need guidance from a Pope if they were guided directly by the Spirit? Paul expressly stated that his teaching was not based on anything learned from man but on direct revelation from Jesus - Galatians 1:11,12,16,17; 2:6-9,11-14.

Paul affirmed he was equal with other apostles in every way - 2 Corinthians 11:5; 12:11.
All apostles were ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20). If Peter had authority over all apostles, Paul would have been behind him, but Paul denies this.

There is no proof Peter had authority over other apostles, but much proof shows the others had all that Peter had.

Peter was a married man, but modern Popes are not permitted to marry.
Matthew 8:14 - Jesus healed the mother of Peter's wife.

Peter refused to allow men to bow to honor him religiously, but modern Popes accept and encourage this.
Peter was never addressed by titles of exaltation such as are used to honor modern Popes.

Let me get this straight.....are you Marcie's boyfriend?If so, your Pentecostal and shacking up????? Well shacking up is NOT in the Bible. I wonder how many tongues your church would speak in if they knew about that.

Let me clarify (GASP!). And no, Im not backpeddaling

I grew up in the Catholic and Lutheran churches. Dad was cath, and Mom was Luth. Mom wanted something more and went to an Assemblies church and after a while I started going there. That is were I feel most accepted and where I really realized and felt the presence of god.

Marcie grew up baptist and went to some, I believe, Lutheran churches in college. When we started going out and living in the same town, we started going to her home church and then we started to look for a church of our own and we found a methodist church so we started going there.

I myself enjoy the pentacostal church more than any other church out there. But, Marcie and I are trying to find a place were we both feel comfortable and like at the same time.

Some pentacostal churches are really.......spirit filled, while others are more laid back. We are going to one that leans more towards the latter and is more laid back.

So...while we bounce all over the place I dont really know if we identify with a particular church..but I often say that I am pentacostal because that is where I feel most at home and I became born again in Christ.
Now....having said that...there is nothing in the Bible against living together; and yes folks...that is ALL we do...live together in seperate rooms.
And no...nobody has a problem with this, outside of one extremist pastor.

The Bible was written by man. It may have been inspired by Jesus and God, but it was written and edited by man. So that is why so many Gospels did not make it, and the 4 did. As well as many of Paul's letters did not make it. You take your entire faith on a wrok that is by definition fallible, and let no other factors influence you.

The Bible Was writen by man...inspired by God. Gods spirit came into them and he wrote the words he wanted to be written. God didnt say "hey...here is a thought...think of this and then write it." Instead, Gods spirit and everything he is entered the body of the people who wrote...he guided their hands and told them what to write.

If the church isnt based on the Bible and puts the bible on the level of reverence and a history benchmark....then what does it base its beliefs on?

There is a reason for each part of the liturgy as Mass is not only a time for fellowship, but a time for learning and rejoicing in the Spirit.

When was the last time you learned something by watching them trasnform a host into the body and blood of christ? The only time I can see one would learn anything is during the sermon that is placed in the middle of the service.

Fellowship? They say "turn and greet each other, saying peace"...so you turn, and say peace to 15 people. Thats not fellowship. Your buddies next to you dont ask if you need prayer. They dont gather around when you need to be lifted up and pray for you as a church or small group. There isnt a call at the end of the service to come up if you want to dedicate your life to christ or if you want prayer. They dont meet during the week to do a small group study of the Bible or to focus in prayer on God. Of course, there may be things at the church during advent where you can come in and take turns praying during a 24 hour period.

Praise is one way, praising God for all that he has done and has yet to do for you...etc.
Worship is a time where there is a two way thing going on...when you feel the presence of God as you praise him...when you forget about others around you and open into a communication with him and him only....lifting your hands up in a sign of surrender to Christ and asking him to work through you to fulfill his will and his plan for you. Worship is when you have thousands of people filling a church after 9-11, praying together at the alter, away from the pews, hands up praising and worshiping God and praying together as a church body for the country and praying for the enemy (yep....prayed for them to get caught).

When I was a child, I spake as a child, played as a child, learned as a child. When I became a man, I put my childish ways away. Time for you to do the same.

Well, I guess Im not like you....because when I became a man...I kept on learning...and I kept my eyes open to the truth of Christ. The spirit of God is within me and I never felt it before at any other time. God says he is knocking and that you have to open the door. You have to open your heart and let him into your life. I was never told that. I never gave my life to Christ and never had a relationship with him. Now I do.

I am certainly not in favour of poofter ministers, it is well known I think they should executed for crimes against humanity. But the C of E is still better than the corrupt and decadent child abusing Church of Papists.

I guess that's the whole once a Catholic always a Catholic thing coming out.

And you are always welcome back into the church!  But I agree with you.  I strayed as a young adult because I did not agree with a lot of things.  However, as with amny people, my children brought me back and I started learning about the changes (which tells you how old I am), and came back to my faith.  I did not go to Catholic Schools, but I did go to a Catholic College - does that count? (No Nuns, just a bunch of Brothers).

am certainly not in favour of poofter ministers, it is well known I think they should executed for crimes against humanity. But the C of E is still better than the corrupt and decadent child abusing Church of Papists.

I guess PB is right.  You do covet him!  You in the closet old dog you!

uh...where does it talk about the office or qualifications of the pope? The Bible talks about Apostles, Bishops, Deacons and Elders...but not about the pope.

I told you you cannot find all your answers in the Bible.  Jesus called Peter his rock, on which his church would be built.  Peter was the first pope.

Now dont you feel silly?

Peter was a married man, but modern Popes are not permitted to marry. Matthew 8:14 - Jesus healed the mother of Peter's wife.

What does that have to do with anything?  The ban on marriage was done in the Middle ages, so as to stop Bishops designating their offspring as the next Bishop.  I never claimed he was not married and that is not germaine to the discussion. 

Now if you want to cherry pick your bible passages, go for it.  But in so doing, you are denying the very bible itself, or at least the part where Jesus said he would build his Church on Peter the Rock. DOH!  Guess you do need to learn more.

If the church isnt based on the Bible and puts the bible on the level of reverence and a history benchmark....then what does it base its beliefs on?

How about (I know this is a radical concept for you), The word of and teachings of Jesus?????

Blasphemy!

Sorry Charlie, you lose again.

And your Spirit of God saying is not right either.  The New Testament was created about 400AD (give or take 100 years).  It was created from previously written works.  SO at Best you can say is that the spirit of God (The Holy Spirit - afraid to say that?) helped EDIT the Bible.

Fellowship? They say "turn and greet each other, saying peace"...so you turn, and say peace to 15 people. Thats not fellowship. Your buddies next to you dont ask if you need prayer. They dont gather around when you need to be lifted up and pray for you as a church or small group. There isnt a call at the end of the service to come up if you want to dedicate your life to christ or if you want prayer. They dont meet during the week to do a small group study of the Bible or to focus in prayer on God. Of course, there may be things at the church during advent where you can come in and take turns praying during a 24 hour period.

I am really tired of your ignorance and proselyting.  I will leave you with this.  First, there is a lot of fellowship, but we don't get up and jitterbug in the aisles if that is what you mean. We also don't speak in tongues.  That you could not rejoice and share in the fellowship is not a shortcoming of the Catholic Church, but your own shortcoming. 

I never said we only learned, and then only when the Eucharist was Consecrated.  You show me where that is stated?  But like the last supper, each Mass has a mini re-enactment of that event in the Eucharist.

So get off your horse. I am not even a Catholic Scholar, and have shot your arguments so full of holes, I dare say you whistle when you walk.

I am not going to convince you of your errors or cure you of your bigotry.  So let it go. You cant win, you cant even mount a coherent debate.  You can quote the bible.  I will give you that.  But then so can a lot of loons like Pat Robertson (better than you), Jim Bakker, Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell. Oh, and Jimmy Swaggert too.  Is he out of the slammer yet?

If there had not been one, we would have had to invent it. For the Church of the Middle ages was not a god-like institution!

Catholics did not need to 'invent' a reformation and send splinter groups of 'Christians' off to start their own Churches.
Many of the clergy etc. in the middle ages were not 'God-like' (charging for indulgences and whatnot), but the Church itself as an institution was fine, and did not need to be 'reformed' on the scale that you suggest. (Although some of the leaders could definately have used some reprimanding, and possible excommunication)

The same applies nowadays. As mentioned in Sir Peter Anonymous's post, there are abusive priests, but that doesnt mean its right to smear the whole church for the wrongs of a few.
All people have free will regardless of their religion; and that means they can go and do things that are totally against their religion...But that doesnt mean their religion is bad, it just means THEY are bad.

...But I for one am glad that it was reformed and is now the Church it is. I could never be a Catholic, prior to Vatican II. I am glad it happened in my life time, and now the Church is one I have faith in and believe in because it does make sense to me. But it does not for all.

Vatican II and the Reformation are two totally different events... And why do you say you couldn't have been a Catholic before Vatican II?

You can quote the bible. I will give you that. But then so can a lot of loons like Pat Robertson (better than you), Jim Bakker, Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell.

Haha. According to the Bible, Satan quotes Scripture as well.

I always think about that when I quote it. Hehe.

but what I believe is this....there are Catholic Christians and I know a few!

Ya know. I always hate this conversation. I've been told one too many times that I am going to hell for being a Catholic. You see, people prefer to believe what they'd like than actually learn about the faith of others. For example, Tova, you say that Catholics pray to idols--by this I assume that you mean saints. But that's just wrong. We don't pray to saints (nor do we pray to Mary), but rather we ask that the saints and Mary pray on our behalf ("Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."). It's no different than when Protestant congregations ask the entire church to pray for them during a Sunday service ("if we could all pray for Mrs. Jones who is in hospital with a terrible bout of the flu.").

Yes, Catholics do believe that Mary is without sin--because she was immaculately conceived. This is supported by Luke 1:28 when Gabriel greets Mary with "chaire kecharitomene" which means "full of grace." I don't think that maintaining a different reading of scripture makes Catholics any less Christian.

As for adding to scripture--I could argue that Protestants subtracted from scripture. I mean, the Bible was the Bible before Martin Luther started the Reformation, right?

But, see, these arguments are petty and ridiculous--much like your statement that "there are Catholic Christians, and I know a few." Catholics are Christians, plain and simple. Catholics, by dogma, believe that Christ died for our sins and through his death we have been saved.

Whatever you'd like to think about Catholics is your problem, but personally, I find Catholic bashing a bit on the offensive side (and saying that Catholics aren't Christians is bashing in my book).

Please, do not tell me what my church has taught me. Please do not pretend that Catholics can not possibly understand what it means to have a personal relationship with God. Please do not lecture me on what being a true Christian is. Just because the Catholic church doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it's not working for others.

At the end of the day, people chose a church that makes them comfortable, but we all (all Christians, I should clarify) still believe in the same over-arching principle. And that principle is that Christ died for us and that our duty on earth is to live our lives in a way that is pleasing to him. I can't imagine that he would find bickering among churches or brow-beating nonbelievers to be pleasing.

Catholics did not need to 'invent' a reformation and send splinter groups of 'Christians' off to start their own Churches. Many of the clergy etc. in the middle ages were not 'God-like' (charging for indulgences and whatnot), but the Church itself as an institution was fine, and did not need to be 'reformed' on the scale that you suggest. (Although some of the leaders could definately have used some reprimanding, and possible excommunication)

You see I disagree.  If not for the protestant reformation, there would have been no reason for the church to reform.  The protestants broke away and that forced the church to look inward to figure out why.