I think it's both never permissible (generally illegal) and always permissible (most people have the ability to carry it out).

I consider it more in terms of "when is it ethical"?

I don't think it's always a selfish move.

What about the Soldier who lays down on a grenade and saves the lives of his brothers?

The struggling father who intentionally gets into an accident so that his family is taken care of with life insurance?

A child molester who puts a gun in his mouth because he knows he can't control his urges?

Sometimes the death of one person can be beneficial to others, so it doesn't always have a completely negative impact. Suicide can be noble and courageous.

Much of what motivates someone to kill himself is intangible. Emotional pain cannot be measured, and while a modern day Job might be able to endure his current problem(s) and find happiness again in the future, some people are fragile and can only take so much.

I also think there are people who are not suited to life. It's like wearing someone else's clothes. It just feels wrong. They can't deal with society or the life they were born into...or sometimes even just who they are. Should they continue to live out a long life of self-loathing and emotional pain when the way they feel inside will never change, regardless of circumstances?

I absolutely agree that it is ethical for someone who is in severe pain or facing an illness or injury which will rob his life of joy to kill himself.

I also believe that it is ethical for someone who is certain that the benefit to others would be greater if he were dead than if he were to continue living to kill himself.

When it comes to situations where it is emotional pain or life events that are prompting thoughts of suicide the ethics, for me, become murkier.

It depends a lot on the person and what they are able to endure. If they are making a rash choice and their problem is temporary, then I don't think it's ethical. However, if the decision has been carefully thought out and the individual is certain that they can handle no more and that things will not improve, then it's a personal choice that I wouldn't criticize.

not even with a mark iv.. silencer?

Only if you're going to shoot a mime.

#26 by Texas Wahine Friday, October 28, 2005

think it's both never permissible (generally illegal) and always permissible (most people have the ability to carry it out). I consider it more in terms of "when is it ethical"? I don't think it's always a selfish move. What about the Soldier who lays down on a grenade and saves the lives of his brothers? The struggling father who intentionally gets into an accident so that his family is taken care of with life insurance? A child molester who puts a gun in his mouth because he knows he can't control his urges? Sometimes the death of one person can be beneficial to others, so it doesn't always have a completely negative impact. Suicide can be noble and courageous. Much of what motivates someone to kill himself is intangible. Emotional pain cannot be measured, and while a modern day Job might be able to endure his current problem(s) and find happiness again in the future, some people are fragile and can only take so much. I also think there are people who are not suited to life. It's like wearing someone else's clothes. It just feels wrong. They can't deal with society or the life they were born into...or sometimes even just who they are. Should they continue to live out a long life of self-loathing and emotional pain when the way they feel inside will never change, regardless of circumstances? I absolutely agree that it is ethical for someone who is in severe pain or facing an illness or injury which will rob his life of joy to kill himself. I also believe that it is ethical for someone who is certain that the benefit to others would be greater if he were dead than if he were to continue living to kill himself. When it comes to situations where it is emotional pain or life events that are prompting thoughts of suicide the ethics, for me, become murkier. It depends a lot on the person and what they are able to endure. If they are making a rash choice and their problem is temporary, then I don't think it's ethical. However, if the decision has been carefully thought out and the individual is certain that they can handle no more and that things will not improve, then it's a personal choice that I wouldn't criticize.

wow! now this is what I call an opinion.

thanx tex I see you put lots of thought into your answer.

elie

COME ON NOW!!! I want more opinions from some pro-life people, sheeeshhhh

COME ON NOW!!! I want more opinions from some pro-life people, sheeeshhhh

I am pro life.  Do I not count?

Suicide is taking one's own life, not another's .  While life is sacred, there does come times when it is beyond living, and just enduring.  NO ONE can make that decision, except the holder of the life, and then only in a clear, sane and rational moment.

That being said, do not ask me to explain any of the subjective terms, for I will not.

#30 by Dr. Guy Saturday, October 29, 2005

am pro life. Do I not count?

of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people.

hugs doc,

Ok well Im a pro-lifer here MM so here goes.

I guess it all depends on what you call suicide. There are those that are dying that refuse to take meds...to me that isnt suicide. Im a Pentacostal so I have the whole...."God can help you out" thing going on. I guess I cant define exactly what it is. To me, I think of suicide as a way to get out. I think of it as a thing that people do, when they very well have plenty of life left, that they just for whatever reason, decide to end it.

For those who are dying and know they are...like they have been told so, their decision to stop taking meds is not suicide as they are already dying. They just want to have a better life of whats left.

Suicide is just a thing where people make choices based on things in the past and what they think lies in the future. I personally believe that God can handle everything. If Im stressed out...I take a deep breath...give my problems to God and its off my shoulders. That doesnt mean I still dont have those problems to work out...but I know that whatever happens is for a purpose. I know that God has a plan for me and my life, and its not for bad things. I may endure some troubling times, maybe some really crappy times...but I know that God is there by me and he will help me through; and if i die...I know where im going. From my standpoint....your life has a plan. Many people decide not to follow it. Ive tried my best to follow Gods will and I have had hard times and I have had great times (aka...Marcie in my life). If you take the life that God has given you and do whatever you want, then you are going to run into situations where you are at what seems like a dead end.

In my life, if there is a closed door...that means Im not supposed to go on until Im ready or God wants me to. Right now, we moved to MN and are having a very hard time at the moment (probably the hardest in our relationship) as far as finances. Im not working as much as I was told so Im looking for part time jobs...so for the moment, Im not going anywhere. When I do get some extra jobs and $$, then Im sure some doors will be opened and we can go on.

Earlier someone said its ok to do it, and one of the reasons was to help stop the pain others have. This was in a medical example. Personally...I dont think thats right. I mean...if my Mom was dying....I wouldnt want her to commit suicide. If she was dying...her presence and everything she is to me and everyone by far outweighs the pain that we may have.

If Im going to die...then Ill die...but until then...Im not going to stop God from doing what he wants in my life. Thats why Im here. His plan isnt so I can open the door for someone when Im 92. But its to do something incredible in my life that will positively affect the others around me. I dont know what it is, but I know I have a purpose. By ending my own life early...thats basically saying I dont trust in God and what he can do in my life.

of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people. hugs doc,

Sorry MM.  Taking care of a sick wife.  Guess I got testy!  {{{hugs}}} back to ya big guy!

Not having read the comments yet, as I wanted to put out my thoughts before hand. There have been times I have been at that abyss. During those times, it seemed to take more strength to continue, than to not. And this is what the abyss does to ones thinking. Yet, while in that thinking I thought I was doing all my loved ones a favor. I didnt feel it selfish. I felt life was selfish in the hand it had dealt me. Now, I see it differently. I have to play the cards that life has dealt me, and that suicide is letting the depression make the decisions. Not me. Having also been on the other side of loosing loved ones to suidcide, while at the abyss, and thinking of this, i realize even then, it is a selfish act. Done out of what seems like, at the time a unselfish motive. I choose life, while understanding both sides of the abyss. All of that said, if one is suffering from an illness that will leave them in incredible pain, and make them live on and on in pain, knowing the disease is fatal. Now, that's another can of worms.
Good Questions MM!

To: Nicky G.

Good point. how can one measure bodily pain such as a fast moving cancer verses emotional pain. Hadn't really thought of it that way

Then there is the question of mass suicides. Although not entirely suicide by the strictest sense of the word, since some members of the group do not know they are committing suicide. (children)

Some of the modern examples are Heavens Gate, David Koresh and his group, and perhaps the craziest of them all, the Reverend Jim Jones et al.
But there are more examples thoughout history. Examples that are not so easily dismissed as extreme nutcases. The Jews at Masada, who, when cornered and left with the prospect of a life of slavery under the Romans, chose death at their own hands instead.

Another example would be the Taino Indians who collectively jumped of a cliff in Puerto Rico, after seeing 2/3 of their people wiped out by Christopher Columbus' men.
Even African blacks, as they were being transported to the New World as part of the slave trade, were known to take their own lives.

In all cases it extends from feelings of deep despair and indefensible endagerment, not unlike the individual facing unbearable pain and then death from an incurable ailment. The feelings are the same, just multiplied throughout the whole group.

Whether it's "permissable" or not is between you and God.

Or, to this old atheist, between me and my dog.

Or, to this old atheist, between me and my dog.

A dyslexic atheist?

Reply By: ZiggystylesPosted: Saturday, October 29, 2005Ok well Im a pro-lifer here MM so here goes.

lots of food for thought here thank you ziggy

Reply By: Dr. GuyPosted: Saturday, October 29, 2005of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people.hugs doc,Sorry MM. Taking care of a sick wife. Guess I got testy! {{{hugs}}} back to ya big guy!

did not know about wife doc, clue me in a little more, although I cannot heal her I can shoot prayers skyward.

Reply By: MissT(Anonymous User)Posted: Sunday, October 30, 2005Not having read the comments yet, as I wanted to put out my thoughts before hand. There have been times I have been at that abyss. During those times, it seemed to take more strength to continue, than to not. And this is what the abyss does to ones thinking. Yet, while in that thinking I thought I was doing all my loved ones a favor. I didnt feel it selfish. I felt life was selfish in the hand it had dealt me. Now, I see it differently. I have to play the cards that life has dealt me, and that suicide is letting the depression make the decisions. Not me. Having also been on the other side of loosing loved ones to suidcide, while at the abyss, and thinking of this, i realize even then, it is a selfish act. Done out of what seems like, at the time a unselfish motive. I choose life, while understanding both sides of the abyss. All of that said, if one is suffering from an illness that will leave them in incredible pain, and make them live on and on in pain, knowing the disease is fatal. Now, that's another can of worms. Good Questions MM!

what makes this so important to ME is when I reacvh any kind of crossroads I want to be prepared just in case I "opt out"

Reply By: little_whipPosted: Sunday, October 30, 2005We begin the process of dying the moment we are born. Suicide simply adjusts the time frame.Whether it's "permissable" or not is between you and God.

yep I have trouble imagining a just and kind GOD thinking, suffer, destroy all the lives around you with a protracted illness, then die. just does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

I think Dr. Guy summed it up best in his first reply. There is no right or wrong answer.

As one who has worked to counter a youth full of self destructiveness (the consequences of which I must deal with on a regular basis), I have to feel that, as selfish as suicide appears to be to some, it is far less selfish than a life of indulgence and self destructive behaviour that characterizes the lives of so many who, for one reason or another, have never "completed the act".

Suicide can, in certain contexts, be the ultimate in selfishness. When, for instance, a troubled teen commits suicide despite the efforts of many loved ones to reach him, it is a selfish act. When an individual troubled with the deterioration of their mind and body and knowing that there is no hope of improvement quietly takes an overdose of sleeping pills after informing their family of their decision and to spare their family the pain and agony of watching that slow deterioration, it CAN BE a completely selfless act. The answers are as varied as the individual.

This is one area where I really try to reserve judgement. There are some things in life I JUST DON'T KNOW!

#44 by Gideon MacLeish Sunday, October 30, 2005

think Dr. Guy summed it up best in his first reply. There is no right or wrong answer. As one who has worked to counter a youth full of self destructiveness (the consequences of which I must deal with on a regular basis), I have to feel that, as selfish as suicide appears to be to some, it is far less selfish than a life of indulgence and self destructive behaviour that characterizes the lives of so many who, for one reason or another, have never "completed the act". Suicide can, in certain contexts, be the ultimate in selfishness. When, for instance, a troubled teen commits suicide despite the efforts of many loved ones to reach him, it is a selfish act. When an individual troubled with the deterioration of their mind and body and knowing that there is no hope of improvement quietly takes an overdose of sleeping pills after informing their family of their decision and to spare their family the pain and agony of watching that slow deterioration, it CAN BE a completely selfless act. The answers are as varied as the individual. This is one area where I really try to reserve judgement. There are some things in life I JUST DON'T KNOW!

the great thing about this particular article is I am seeking answers from all quarters, again I state there are no right or wrong answers as I am not looking for a particular thought. I just want food for my own thought process.

thank you gid.

MM

did not know about wife doc, clue me in a little more, although I cannot heal her I can shoot prayers skyward.

Dont sweat it.  I think it is another sinus infection.  If she is not better today, I am going to drag her to the doctor.

I have no religious beliefs when it comes to suicide. I think how and why you die is as unique as how you enter life. Noone, not even your parents can dictate exactly how it will go down. I can't say what a valid reason would be for someone else to end their life. I do know that I have experienced pain so bad that if I were told I would not get through it and improve, I would want to take enough drugs to go to sleep and never wake up.

To me, the thought of the pain my death would cause my loved ones is much more of a factor than fear of death. But when you are experiencing extreme pain or depression, the rest of the world isn't in your focus. I generally feel that as long as you are alive, there is hope, but I can understand one feeling so hopeless that they rather have nothing than what they are currently experiencing.

I know that as long as I have things to look forward to, I will be alive. Wanting to be there for my kids and my husband is enough to see me through just about anything. But I think having to see me suffer through cancer or something like that would be more difficult on them than my simply passing away. I had a friend go through it early this year. She and her family went through months of unneccessary misery.

Life is a gift, and a great deal of thought has gone into allocating certain bodies for our use. From my point of view, we come into life with a goal to accomplish various tasks for the advancement of our souls. If we commit suicide, then even though God is infinitely patient with us, we will most certainly feel a deep sense of unfinished business, and will be sent back to a new life in order to try again. We’ll have to face the same challenges and pains, and again our aim will be to overcome those challenges.

Most the time, if we’ve chosen a difficult life, our personalities have no choice but to grin and bear it. We often think that suicide is the best way to escape, but it's no escape at all. If we've got karmic debts to pay off, or if our soul needs to experience certain conditions in order to advance to higher levels in Heaven, then it's inescapable. From the highest - in eternity - we will choose to experience those things, because from that point of view we will be aware of the profound benefits to be reaped, and we will see that such grim lifetimes are merely blinks of an eye in conext with our eternal life.

Whilst down here, we can find peace of mind by acknowledging that there is a divine plan, and that all our experiences – no matter how painful – are for purposes that are all-wise and good. After all, everything we face is sponsored by God. (Any religious person should know that God would not allow us to experience such grief if there were no good to come from it. God knows exactly what He's doing, and we're all infinitely safe and secure.)

To anyone who is considering committing suicide: hold on and have faith.

Suicide seems wrong to me. I know i'm being harsh here but I think that if there is ANY possible redeeming quality left in life, you should not throw it away. BUT that being said, the soldier that dies to save the life of another or the man who refuses the rescue till others are saved and dies don't seem to fall in the same category as those who just give up.
Maybe we need more words for this. one for people who just quit trying. One for those dying, who hasten their own end. One for someone who willingly sacrifices thier life for someone else. .... i think my point is suicide is such a broad term...the situations vary so greatly that simply saying it's right or wrong is impossible.

Suicide is a selfish act if it is not discussed and agreed upon by those whose lives you affect on a daily basis, as they have to live with the mess you may or may not leave behind. So if you are terminally ill and want to end it, discuss it agree to it get your affairs in order and do the act.

On the other hand if you are just a depressed fool that wants to end it all, know that you are nothing more than a selfish coward. At least have the good sense to put your affairs totally in order, do not choose a messy and horrific way to die where a family member will find you as you will give them nightmares for the rest of their life. Though personally I believe that to commit suicide because you see no light at the end of the tunnel is a cowards way out - get a grip on life and deal with it. Harsh - but my opinion.

I believe it is a weakness but it also takes strength to commit the act. One of lifes most basic instincts is to survive, so when you go against that instinct to cut your life short, it has to take courage and discipline of some degree to actually carry out the act of killing yourself.

In my opinion, you do not hang about to make anyone happy, that makes them selfish and you an idiot. If you are planning on going, get your house in order and all the people in your life to accept the idea first, then go ahead. Hanging about to please a loved one is in a way is asking them to bear a dreadful guilt for the suffering you may be enduring. (this is said for the terminally ill)

I believe suicide is only permissable when you are terminally ill and do not want to go through the whole process of dying by illness, in this instance it is an act of courage and kindness to those you love so they can remember you whole and healthy before the bad sets in.

Suicide by the depressed is a cowards way out.

If you are in a situation of absolutely no hope eg. stuck in an air pocket below the water line in a sinking ship and there is no way you are going to get back to the top then it is okay to sink into the water and drown or put a bullet in your head.

Get trapped in some secret place inside a pyramid and know you are going to die a slow death by starvation etc - then it is okay to chose a bullet instead - get my drift? Okay now I am talking tripe! :: gotta go!

Anyone who commits suicide will have to come back and face the same kind of challenges in their next incarnation. The pain that their suicide caused to others can add to karmic debt to boot, so the challenges in their next incarnation might be magnified.

To sit and ride the storm is the best thing to do. Even though from the personality’s point of view, to sit in despair, darkness and fear might seem like a bad option, from the soul’s point of view, it is the wisest option. Pain and suffering is only temporary, and if you’re presently facing it, then your soul needs to face it, for one reason or another, otherwise you wouldn’t be facing it.