Frogboy Frogboy

Subscription Drive: Status report

▼

Subscription Drive: Status report

We're not going to make it..

from WinCustomize Forums

If you click HERE you can see WinCustomize's traffic details.  Most sites keep this kind of thing secret but we tend to operate as transparently as possible.

The key figures are: 788,000 visits per day average. 5.5 MILLION visitors this past week. 

13 days into the WinCustomize subscription drive, we have a total of 345 people who have re-subscribed or subscribed new.  Quite a few of them are individuals who re-subscribed long before they needed to or bought a subscription for someone else.  That means a very small number of people are doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the site.  345 subscriptions means $6,900 in revenue (thank you to those who have subsribed).

As you can imagine, running a site that gets 5.5 million visitors every week is very expensive. Especially when it's on a download site. For instance, Kol's VistaXP skin has been downloaded about 2,000 times today.  It's a 2MB file.  That means 4,000 megabytes (4 Gigabytes) of bandwidth were used just for that one skin. So as you can imagine, the bandwidth costs of this site are immense.  Moreover, as skinning gets more popular and more users interact, we need full-time people to code and manage the site.  Thank goodness we have volunteers who actually run the site and a day to day basis or else there'd be no WinCustomize.

Which brings us back to the start of this news item.  WinCustomize costs probably around $300,000 a year to run.  That's bandwidth + salaries.  Anyone in the Internet business will tell you wer're running the site on a shoe-string.  A site in the top 3000 or so most popular in the world would typically cost far more.  deviantART, for instance, has around two-dozen employees working just on that site. 

So what happens to WinCustomize when October 31 comes and we're not even close to our goal?  Well, for skinners, subscribers, and SD Customers the answer is, not much.  Skinners and subscribers are going to get new stuff -- we have a Halloween skin in the works for instance and there will be subscriber-only content made in the future.

For regular users it's going to be a different story.  Users are going to have to start creating accounts to access skins made that month.  We'll also have to put in some code to make it more difficult for someone to simply create a duplicate account.  This will likely drive away some users -- which will be part of the goal.

In the midterm, the site will begin focusing more and more on the community with the community defined as people who care about WinCustomize.  That would be the skinners, the subscribers, and SD customers.  People not in that category will still be able to do many things on the site, but it will be much more restrictive. 

 

63,729 views 167 replies
Reply #51 from WinCustomize Forums Top
if you were the type of person that was here just to download and were already getting everything you wanted for free, why on earth would you subscribe?


Because if you were this person and you enjoyed coming here and you enjoy the artwork you find here and you want things to stay the way they are. i.e. free, then you would hopefully feel compelled to chip in and help a bit.

If you don't feel compelled to chip in and help keep things the way they are then you really are part of the problem and you will see exactly what is going to happen when the new restrictions go into place. Honestly I think if this site started using as many obnoxious ads and changed the layout of the free site such that it was impossible to find anything like on DA maybe the subscribership here would be as high as it is there.

While I'd like to see the drive be successful, it appears that the only thing some people understand is having their free toys taken away. So, I guess we'll just have to see how bad it has to get for the casual visitor before things are manageable around here. I've thought about re-subscribing *again* even though my WC sub doesn't expire until mid 07, I subscribed again during the last drive, but maybe I'll just donate a subscription or two.. We'll just have to see.
Reply #52 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The royal we? I'll say no more.


I'm sorry you take it that way. It was not implied. I am no better than anyone else. The only difference is I am a member. If you want to attach a stigma to it, you are free to do so.The money I have paid to support this site allows me to call myself a member. Why don't you just join and become one of the members yourself? You won't be sorry, and I for one will give you a warm welcome.

I beg to differ. I would wager the biggest reason people subscribe to this site is based purely on the respect they have for the skinners. The overwhelming creativity here is intoxicating for other creative people. If that isn't atmosphere, I don't know what is.


While part of what you said is true, the fact is, most of the skinners here belong to several other sites that are free. The only thing one needs to do on those sites is sign up.

And I appologize for overlooking your stand on free versus subscription. We are in agreement there.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #53 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Because if you were this person and you enjoyed coming here and you enjoy the artwork you find here and you want things to stay the way they are. i.e. free, then you would hopefully feel compelled to chip in and help a bit.


I agree with you 100% but that clearly isn't working. I think the problem lies somewhere in the mindset the majority have who surf. They have paid their subscription fee to their ISP and now believe they can surf the internet freely. A little like you'd pay for your cable TV access then expect the shows to be free. Not a perfect analogy I admit. There is very little understanding about how much it costs to provide content and I'm not just talking about downloads, the work webmasters put in has absolutely no value to the majority. It's expected and I dont think you will change attitudes like that without at least trying to hit the downloaders with some information that educates them.

How many times have you read on forums that the ads are annoying, why can't you just take them away etc. Most surfers are oblivious to how the internet actually works and how much it costs to run even hobbyist sites, let alone the traffic monsters like this site. The forum isn't the place to get the most effective results, I applaud how transparent this site is in revealing the costs involved but how about putting a little of that into the download section?

"You are about to download file x, the cost in bandwidth to bring you this file is up to $x this week. If you appreciate this service, come into the forums, get involved, weve got x, y and z to tempt you and if you subscribe you'll get all this......"

At least your making each person think about the reality of what it is they are doing.

If you don't feel compelled to chip in and help keep things the way they are then you really are part of the problem and you will see exactly what is going to happen when the new restrictions go into place.


Do I feel the need to pay for a site I've only recently discovered and am not even sure I'll still be surfing in the long term? I'm not here for the downloads, Most of the time I just like to look at what skinners are doing. I have my own minimilist desktop that I customize myself for my own needs. I really dont need a download service but I'm sure I am in the minority there. So would I subscribe to essentially pay for others bandwidth? Not a hope. As I get more into it would I consider paying? Maybe I would but I'd also like to see a lot more done to improve the mechanics of the site. That's for another thread though.

So, I guess we'll just have to see how bad it has to get for the casual visitor before things are manageable around here.


I keep saying but seem to be giving the opposite impression, cripple the downloads for people like me, I have no beef with that at all. Fire more adverts at me, bring it on. I love Gamespots layout and ads. I really do and despite the moaners who shout much louder than those that are happy, the idea of providing on topic advertising that's visually pleasing makes my experience of using the site better. I've run small sites and used ad agencies like Burst media, small time stuff I admit but I know the kind of trash that is out there in online advertising and the desperation small time webmasters have in general in trying to maintain their ever increasing costs but with models like gamespot, larger sites have no excuse not to get with the program and really make the most of the traffic.
Reply #54 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm sorry you take it that way. It was not implied. I am no better than anyone else. The only difference is I am a member. If you want to attach a stigma to it, you are free to do so.


I just took it as I saw it. A little quote from animal farm "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." That wasn't really aimed at you. You just provided a good spot for me to air what I was already thinking after reading a fair bit from subscribers.

And I appologize for overlooking your stand on free versus subscription. We are in agreement there


Phew! I think we agree too, I just really wanted to make the point that driving traffic away might not be the only solution and by saying that I didn't mean, dont touch the downloads, leave them as they are although I could see how one idea suggests the other.
Reply #55 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Something about all of this divisiveness is really getting me down. As a community we should be rallying around each other, not picking fights and placing blame. This entire community is interdependent, skinners and non-skinners alike. Do we take to heart that a skinner is just as important as someone who buys objectdesktop, one doesn't exist without the other. When I feel that a difference has to be made between people who buy OD (1/2 of the equation) and those who subscribe to WC (1/2 of the equation) I don't feel all that good and I can't see how this situation will solve itself with the majority winning.
I agree with those suggesting alternate business models and those looking for other solutions. This subscribe or you're no one isn't the solution. Punishment doesn’t make anyone act for very long.

Speaking of alternates, which section or sections take all the bandwidth? Maybe those sections need to be limited?
What about the OD users, maybe they get access to anything OD would directly support (WB, cursors, etc.) but things like wallpapers would be a little different.

Perhaps it’s time for the site admins to start a new message thread that asks for the visitors and subscribers alike to list their positive suggestions.
Reply #56 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I might have agreed with that line years ago but I've seen too many sites thrive by giving things away, for free. Look at DeviantArt as an example of how a site can grow on the basis of giving stuff away.

non-subscribers on deviantART can't even search.

Reply #57 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Our belief is that people don't subscribe to the site simply because there's little incentive to do so.

Right now, a user can come on and download over a 100 megabytes of stuff.  Then, once they do, they can simply create another account and continue doing the same thing.

Instead, what we're looking at is creating a system in which the newest skins require an account (which is free).  Then after 50 megabytes of downloading, they have to purchase something, become a skinner, or become a subscriber.   Then put in place a system where we can better detect people who are creating duplicate accounts.

If that doesn't work, then we'll lower it to 25 megabytes of bandwidth a user can have.

There are other features of the site that can become premium features.

Reply #58 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Our belief is that people don't subscribe to the site simply because there's little incentive to do so.

If that doesn't work, then we'll lower it to 25 megabytes of bandwidth a user can have.


So you are going to use more resources for users that don't indent to subscribe.

Why don't you enforce those changes for a week to see how it goes starting today?
Reply #59 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmmm

I just found out that buying OD didn't include a subscription to WC......

So I'll be sending another money order for a subscription and to support the site

because I love the way it's set up, run and the artists and techs are more than worth the small subscription fee.

It will cost me an entire day's paycheck, so you see I don't have much money to throw around...I'm frugal by necessity

the work and people here are worth it

*do I get suck up points???
Reply #60 from WinCustomize Forums Top
how dissapointing, so many site visitors that couldn't give a rip van winkle about the site. its not new though, that same stigma has been around since the sites launch, and its the reason I've never wanted to be part of this "community". i support the site, but its only for the sake of the skin authors and stardock, not the other members.
Reply #61 from WinCustomize Forums Top
cripple the downloads for people like me


Sounds like we agree 100% RiddickRom.. I say give the freeloaders 10MB total downloads and make them click through at least one advertisment that they have to look at for 10 seconds every time they try and download something.

I would still like them to be able to use and view the site to an extent because if we lock everyone that's not currently a member out we'll never see growth in the membership but if we continue to let them see what they are truly missing out on, and this means they need to actually be missing out on something worthwhile (no offense but the WC browser isn't anything I miss, and the 2 year old out dated skins leave much to be desired, although I'd love to see Augustus updated to WB5 but I digress).

Anyway RiddickRom, I hope you find some value in the site and decide to stick around cause I think you'd be a great addition to the masses here!
Reply #62 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I was wandering whether offering different subscription types might help? You know you could keep the "top band" package at $20 and maybe a lower package that would include unlimited downloads and premium skins but not any webspace or upload privileges for maybe $14.99. Then maybe download only privileges for $5.99?

I know it needs more thought, but if i want just to come to wincustomize to download i can confident that i am still contributing to the site. Or if i want to be a "daddy" around these parts i can with a full subscription package.
Reply #63 from WinCustomize Forums Top
non-subscribers on deviantART can't even search.


That's true and it's a really clever way to get people who want a lot of content to subscribe. The casual first timer is not pushed away, they can still find the content, there are clearly laid out heirarchies of categories. I think the no search option was a very smart move but then a lot of the function behind DA is extremly forward thinking. The community features are just dazzling and I've not even really got to know it very well yet being a new visitor there. A visitor that wants to download gigabytes worth of wallpapers, well they have a really hard slog on there hands finding so much reducing the bandwidth drain significantly I'd imagine. The user that just wants one or two things isn't inconvenienced too much. Obviously not or the site would be losing traffic rather than gaining it.

When you are willing to stop a visitor from using the major parts of your site and force a fee to continue, I don't see how limiting them from the start is really any different ethically.

Instead, what we're looking at is creating a system in which the newest skins require an account (which is free). Then after 50 megabytes of downloading, they have to purchase something, become a skinner, or become a subscriber. Then put in place a system where we can better detect people who are creating duplicate accounts.


A sterling idea but how you stop someone creating another free account, that's going to be a tough one.

would still like them to be able to use and view the site to an extent because if we lock everyone that's not currently a member out we'll never see growth in the membership but if we continue to let them see what they are truly missing out on, and this means they need to actually be missing out on something worthwhile


That's exactly my point. It would be nice to see more done to bridge the gap between visitor and subscriber.
Reply #64 from WinCustomize Forums Top
i had a feeling that this issue would pop up on this site (i reallly didnt want to comment on this thread but...i guess il put my 1 1/2 cents in)
Hey if the site wants a subscription drive than thats fine and good, they need the funds to back up the site...but there are 2 problems with what ive read

1. Its not the non-suscribers fault nor are they the cause of the problem. The makers of the site should be blaming themselves for that, as it was their deciscion to make the site public with little restrictions

2. Im getting the feeling (ive got this feeling ALOT of times on this site...) that some people feel like the suscribers are "elite" or just plain "better" compared to the non-suscribers

I dont suscribe to this site, and i really dont have a problem if new restrictions are put on the non-suscribers (i think that is a great idea) but dont go placing the blame on the non-suscribers in general...mayb its me, but some people just dont wanna subscribe to every site they visit (i mean wincustomize isnt the only site on the net u noe... )
Reply #65 from WinCustomize Forums Top
DesignCaddy
i really hope this is a minority opinion.. otherwise there are a lot of really ignorant people out there. ODNET people get all version upgrades including alphas and betas as part of their subscription. There is nothing new here with wb5. Second, its still in development. Can you imagine the tech support load if every random visitor got to download it?


Well excuse me for being ignorant as I have not seen the worth of Object Desktop since it doesn't include Object Dock. Still, that doesn't negate my point. Release WB5 and you will probably see a rather large increase in subscriptions. Simple fact. Plus, WB5 could be made available to the public if they wanted too...as it was suggested....People would knowingly be taking part of a beta program, so they would know what they were getting in to. Software companies do that all the time. Instead, it gets released...but to get it, they point to a suite that costs $49.95. I am not that gullible.

Let me get this straight, outside of buying WB5, do people have to subscribe to this site as well? That is charging on top of charging if that is the case and it is no wonder so many people have decided to not re-subscribe. I like this site, and have allot of content downloaded and stored on my HDD to make reinstallations very easy, and yes...I am going to subscribe...when WB5 comes out and I see that I like it better than 4.6. I sure hope the purchase of WB5 will cover a subscription to this site. If not, that is petty imho.

Cheers
Reply #67 from WinCustomize Forums Top
>> >>This subscription drive is not about catering to individual wants, but the Wincustomize community and the continuation of services, a concept that sadly seems to have been missed by a few.
>>This is exactly the kind of view that I believe holds the site back

That is exactly correct! I bought a subscription last night, but I had to think about it for a long, long time before I did. Finally I told myself that I'd certainly gotten $20 worth of good from WC over all the years I've been here for free. But I did NOT subscribe for "the community," but rather for the benefits that *I* receive. I still think that the subscription is overpriced, and that there should be levels of costs for levels of service. But it's still the arrogance which bothers me more than anything else. I realize that I'm not one of the clique, but when you really get down to it, the elite skinners cannot make this site survive -- it takes the support of people like me, and it is harmful to the cause to come across like you are doing us a favor just by being here. And driving away traffic obviously is not going to help in long-term success of the site.
Reply #68 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Citizen 9Iron

Well excuse me for being ignorant as I have not seen the worth of Object Desktop


Try DriveScan. My favorite utility!
Reply #69 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Black Cat 77

Finally I told myself that I'd certainly gotten $20 worth of good from WC over all the years I've been here for free.


You're a member as long as I am. And I think that in all 336 MB's of download that I've done in this site that they cost many times the $20. Some of the skins here are pro quality and are for free.
Reply #70 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Mr RiddickRom,
After reading all the comments, your comments are the only ones that stand out as
far as being, how should I word this, right on the mark. All I can say is that I hope
people like Brad take heed.

I am a Stardock customer and a subscriber here but I am
at a point whether or not to re-subscribe. The reason- the way I am sometimes treated
because I chose to leave a comment about the rating system and mentioned a certain skinners
name, then hello, my two latest skin postings were very strangely down rated all of a sudden.
This has happened on more than one occasion not only to me but to many others. This sort of
thing needs to STOP!
As far as the comment about giving up a few six packs of beer and a pizza goes, well all I have to say to
that is, it might only be $19.95 in America but here in NZ it is almost twice that price. Some of you
people need to keep that in mind.
I have also heard on the grape vine, so to speak, about how people are very unhappy about the
way they have been treated here and what goes on. It is true that bad news travels faster than good news,
but hey, thats life, and there is a LOT of bad news out there about Wincustomize and specifically about
how this site is being run. (Ratings system, Ranking etc). Its all to easy for a subscriber who ISN'T a
skinner to downgrade a skin because he or she doesn't like it, but they have NO idea how much work is
involved in making the skin. Personally, I feel that skinners should be the ONLY people that have the ability
to rate a skin, that way it would be much fairer because they know themselves what it takes to create
a skin or theme in the first place.
Think about it.

Enough said.
Reply #71 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I still say you should get newer skins. I mean 2003, 2004. C'mon you can do better.
Reply #72 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Personally, I feel that skinners should be the ONLY people that have the ability
to rate a skin, that way it would be much fairer because they know themselves what it takes to create
a skin or theme in the first place.


You are right. It is very difficult to make a skin. The amount of work is huge!
But I don't agree that only skinners should be able to rate skins.
Maybe a rating system that uses the Users Access Class as a weight so an opinion from a user with high access class should contrast the opinions from users from lower classes.
Reply #73 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmm, a topic that invokes a lot of sentiment obviously.

I don't think anyone can rationally argue against people who contribute, subscribe, or buy SD products getting top priority here.

How about having 2 levels of WC content, (one for SD customers/ others SD consider favorite/favourite community members.. maybe only accessible through SDCentral) and a slimmed down version of the current site which will hopefully continue in a promotional role for SD but is strictly limited in D/L allowances etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
However perhaps a system where people "earn" D/L points depending on what they have done (ie bought something or created something) might be worth looking at FrogBoy?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know it's extra web-coding but as you are already investing your team's time and money in ways to weed out multi-account "members" why not consider doing that too?

Anyway just my comments, love all at SD.
Reply #74 from WinCustomize Forums Top
>> I think that in all 336 MB's of download that I've done in this site that they cost many times the $20.

836 megs for me. So obviously I've already gotten my value from WC, and like I said, that was the final factor that convinced me to cough up the money. But I still hope that all concerned show respect for ordinary people like me as well as "the community."
Reply #75 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Well, I subscribed, but so far I don't a good reason why. Maybe it will get better. They said you would get "Premium Suites". Yea. 2 years old. I'll wait and see if it gets any better, but so far, nothing spectacular.