nothing you've just provided proves her protest would contradict her son's wishes. if anything, it supports my contention that he could as easily have hated the war but felt bound by duty and loyalty to his brothers to reenlist and to put himself in danger to help rescue them.

i realize this is gonna sound like i'm baiting you but consider the following:

if kerry had been killed in action on a swiftboat, one could have said the same things about him posthumously. he reenlisted. he volunteered for a mission with a very high incidence of casualties. he put himself in the line of fire to save a member of his crew.

did that evidence his support for the war?

Damn... i turn my back for a couple hours and a civil discussion breaks out....Bastards! ::

Can't get to it Guy. Gotta subscribe. But i re-read the article from your link. Nowhere does it have a direct quote of Cindy stating that dubya was a "murderer". Just some heresay from some guy who might or might not been within earshot of her. Also according to Stute, the AP is part of the vast LEFT wing conspiracy

Well here ya go:

Posted on Sat, Aug. 13, 2005 More war protesters, Bush supporters rally in Crawford ANGELA K. BROWN Associated Press CRAWFORD, Texas - A grieving mother's anti-war protest entered its second week, gaining momentum and spurring counter-rallies, as hundreds of people with conflicting opinions about the war in Iraq descended Saturday on a road leading to the Western White House. More than 350 anti-war demonstrators gathered at a park near downtown, then moved the rally several miles away to the peace vigil's makeshift campsite along the road to President Bush's ranch. "Who knew that the beginning of the end of the occupation in Iraq was going to start last Saturday in Crawford, Texas?" said Cindy Sheehan of Vacaville, Calif., who started the protest Aug. 6 in memory of her 24-year-old son Casey, killed in Iraq last year. "We're here to change the world." As about a dozen Bush supporters stood across the street holding signs, down from more than 250 who gathered there Saturday morning, one exchange became heated. A Bush supporter approached an anti-war veteran, and they stood chest to chest as deputies tried to separate them. When the veteran shouted about his wartime experiences and yelled, "I earned the right to be here!" several of his fellow protesters subdued him, moving him away as he sobbed and his knees buckled. Sheriff's deputies and Secret Service agents otherwise kept the groups on opposite sides of the road, and no one was arrested. The morning pro-Bush rally at the site was organized by Darrell Ankarlo, a conservative radio talk show host for KLIF in Dallas, who said "in my heart of hearts I believe that we're trying to do the right thing" in Iraq. He also asked to meet with Sheehan, but she only agreed to meet privately Saturday evening with Bush supporters whose relatives have died in Iraq. The 250-plus Bush supporters stood in the blazing sun for a few hours in a ditch across the street from the campsite. Most waved American flags and held signs, including "Help! I'm surrounded by America hating idiots!" and "Thank you, Mr. President." "I feel sorry for Cindy, but I think she went about this the wrong way," said Bill Garrett, of Dallas, a member of Protest Warrior, a group that frequently holds counter protests to anti-war rallies. "Somebody's got to stand up to them." The first counter-rally was Friday night, organized by another conservative radio talk show host, Mike Gallagher. He brought many of the 100 Bush supporters by bus to the anti-war group's campsite, and the pro-Bush side waved flags, sang patriotic songs and chanted, "Go, George, go!" But Tim Origer, who lost his left leg above the knee when he was a 19-year-old Marine fighting in Vietnam, said Saturday that believing the war with Iraq is wrong does not diminish their support for the soldiers. "When Iraqi Freedom started, it looked so much like Vietnam that I couldn't be quiet," said Origer, who lives in Santa Fe, N.M., and is a member of Veterans for Peace. "It's real easy to say war is good when you don't have to be in it." The campsite of tents and anti-war banners has swelled to several hundred people some days but has a core group of about 100. They sing songs, chat and plan strategy each day on the shoulders of two intersecting side roads that form a triangle with Prairie Chapel Road, which leads to Bush's ranch. Others stay at the Crawford Peace House several miles away near downtown. They vow to remain until Bush meets with Sheehan and the group's other grieving parents or until the end of his monthlong ranch visit. Bush has said that he sympathizes with Sheehan but hasn't said whether he will talk to her. Two administration officials met with her last weekend.

Seems to me that it was the death of their son that is causing their divorce. Not the protest.

oh really? Care to try again?

According to the Smoking Gun, Patrick Sheehan, who has been married to Cindy for more than 28 years, filed documents in Solano County, Calif., on Friday to split with Cindy, citing "irreconcilable differences." In an Aug. 1 interview with the Daily Kos blog, Cindy Sheehan stated, "I have lost almost every friend that I had before Casey died. My husband and I are separated, because he doesn't support my activities, although he knows the war is a lie."

Looks pretty self-explanitory to me.

If it was your son or daughter, which would you prefer?

i don't expect the president to attend every funeral, but it's more than that. i remember seeing coverage of reagan (whom i carry no torch for) being present for the return of the soldiers killed in beirut. he was man enough to be there.

the current embargo on photos of caskets containing those men and women who died in iraq--much less a presidential appearance upon the return of their remains--is a disgrace.

it's a transparent attempt to ensure that when this is all over, there won't be any unpleasant imagery associated with george w. bush.

as i said earlier, it negates tradition and it permits bush to avoid being seen in what someone in the whitehouse sees as a negative light.

Looks pretty self-explanitory to me

not surprising. what doesn't?

Judging from your customary positions & demeanor, kb, you might praise Bush for that, but you'd be the exception to the rule. You consider his method of dealing with this a "weasel move." Some consider it respectful and in many ways more personal and meaningful for the families.

I believe Cindy Sheehan's initial (contemporaneous) accounts of her meeting with the President were quite a bit different than those she is providing the press now. She has a right to change her mind & say she's now unhappy with the interaction, but it should at least be stated for the record.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Looks pretty self-explanitory to me not surprising. what doesn't?

I'm guessing that your reading comprehension was not up to the task?

You ever been to Crawford Miler? I have!

I have too. And what I don't remember is that EVRYONE drives a pick-up nor was EVERYONE a "redneck"!

Looks pretty self-explanitory to me not surprising. what doesn't?

Again you asked for an answer. I gave you one. You don't like the answer? Too bad!

Some consider it respectful and in many ways more personal and meaningful for the families.

when did that change? i mean which former president(s) made a deliberate effort to avoid being present (or being seen) at dover when those who'd died in combat arrived back on our soil? which administration embargoed photos of the flag-draped caskets? when did it become even a little bit respectful or meaningful?

have you read 'a bright and shining lie'? if not, you've missed a fairly important work of its genre. if so, perhaps you'll recall the contrast between john paul vann's ceremony at arlington and the family meeting with nixon afterwards.

Still didn't find anything even close to Cindy saying dubya was a "murderer". Miler. Swing and a miss....Strike three. You Mod and Guy all took a crack at it.
As far as why their marrige breaking up. Only they know why.

All we can do is play armchair quarterback

i saw almost nothing but pickups and large SUV's in Crawford. And the clown who mowed down the crosses was a redneck. Nuff said!

Judging from your customary positions & demeanor, kb, you might praise Bush for that, but you'd be the exception to the rule.

no might about it. it wouldn't make me a fan but it would sweeten some of the bitterness.

i'm not sure i'd be the exception. i don't recall, as i noted earlier, any president in my lifetime ever being criticized for being seen with those who lost their lives under his command.

Still didn't find anything even close to Cindy saying dubya was a "murderer".

gotta read between the words...

Cindy Sheehan stated, "I have lost almost every friend that I had before Casey died. My husband and I are separated, because he doesn't support my activities, although he knows the war is a lie."

As far as why their marrige breaking up. Only they know why.

In an Aug. 1 interview with the Daily Kos blog, Cindy Sheehan stated, "I have lost almost every friend that I had before Casey died. My husband and I are separated, because he doesn't support my activities, although he knows the war is a lie."

What part of "because he don't support my activities" from her own mouth, don't you understand?

and that's not reading between the words.

" Still didn't find anything even close to Cindy saying dubya was a "murderer". Miler."

In a letter to nightline:

" Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel.

She doesn't use the word 'murder' in direct relation to Bush, so one can always assume she's talking about the Iraqi who killed her son in relation to the word murder. No doubt now that she has media consultants she is only going to say the "right" things, anyway. I can't claim to know what she means, but it jives with my definition of murder. And more power to her, it's her opinion, and she has the right to express it.

It just troubles me her sincerity is lost in an ocean of political opportunism. I think she really believes all this hype is sincere, and not the usual vultures looking for a meal. Making this out to be a Zionist plot isn't helping her, either.

Actually, according to the Socialist Worker, Sheehan said:

“He planned a five-week vacation while we’re in the middle of war, and I’m never going to be able to enjoy another vacation because he killed my only son. If he doesn’t come out and talk to me in Crawford, I’ll follow him to D.C. and camp out on his lawn there until he finds the integrity to talk to someone whose life he has ruined. “Casey was murdered by Bush and his insane, arrogant, callous foreign policy. What did my son die for? Last week, Bush said my son died in a noble cause. And I want to ask him what that noble cause is."

I'm not vouching for the accuracy, but that is the quote they have for her. Maybe they gave it some oomph on their own initiative.

Also, she is reported to have said:

"I want to ask the president, 'Why did you kill my son? What did my son die for?'"

I'd have to look harder to see if she really used the word murder or if people are paraphrasing her.

Kingbee, your "Kerry" analogy doesn't work. Being a Naval Officer, Kerry volunteered, he also volunteered for Swiftboat duty... in fact he was all for the war in Vietnam until his own attrocities turned him against it.

But let's not go off making the example the point... The point is, he was not against the war, nor was he opposed to fighting in it. He chose to go and chose to participate beyond the requirements of his MOS. For a mechanic to have gotten permission to leave the motorpool for a day would most likely had taken a lot of pestering by him to his motor sergeant. Yes, that part is speculation on my part, but it is based on experience.

~~~~

As far as the funeral thing, you didn't answer my question. No problem, it wasn't a fair question anyway. The point was, he has met with many of the families of those killed in Iraq and that takes both guts and a concern for them that you and Mrs. Sheehan are both unwilling to accept or recognize. I understand that nothing he does will ever be good enough, that is the nature of the political beast.

~~~~

As for photos of flag draped coffins at Dover, what do we need with ghouls with press cards hanging around Dover for? If you get off on seeing pics of flag draped coffins or negative images from Iraq, surf the web for awhile, it doesn't take long to find as much as your eye wants to take in.

Prs. Bush didn't originate the moritorium, but I for one am glad he is willing to honor our fallen troops by continuing it. The only people I know who are against it are people who want nothing more than to use the image as part of an anti Bush agenda. Leave the troops who have been killed alone, they have done enough.


We obviously won't agree in this topic, but that is ok. I do wonder why the press doesn't give those who have lost loved ones and support the war even the slighest portion of the coverage Cindy Sheehan has enjoyed, but then again they aren't being bankrolled by George Soros, Michael Moore and the "hate Bush at all costs" crowd either. Sad... there are some really great stories there.

Leave the troops who have been killed alone, they have done enough.

From a follow soldier, Ahman.

Prs. Bush didn't originate the moritorium

who did?

sorry i may have misunderstood you to be saying there was a presidential moratorium (altho in a way i guess that's true since the pentagon's moratorium on photographs at dover was started by the first president bush).

incidentally, here's barbara bush's response when asked if she hadda problem with the restriction on photos of caskets bearing the remains of those killed in action:

"Why should we hear about body bags and death and how many? ... Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

Annnnnd the troll goes to Karma.

You troll me because I disagree?  I think that you have a very wrong sense of what "trolling" means.

I hope I never hear you claim "freedom of speech" on here, because you obviously only like "freedom of speech" if it agrees with you.

If you want people to have rights, then *all* people have to have them.  If you want people to display fallen soldiers names, then it needs to be in a respectful way to *them*, NOT for a hidden agenda.  She is not paying tribute to the fallen soldiers by using their names to protest the war.  Those sons and daughters died doing something they believed in.  It's not her right to use their names in that way.  How do you think the families who believed in what their children died for feel?  What about their rights?  Yes, the guy who drove through those crosses did a very sick thing, but I think that Sheehan did, too.

Hmm....so the crosses were on Dubya's property...which means that she was on his property....wouldn't that mean that she was trespassing?  The President's property is not "public" anymore than anyone else's is.  So how is it that her protest is not breaking any laws? 

I am not "pro-war".  I don't even agree with the war.  BUT, I 100% support our troops and the freedom that they uphold.  Nobody like war.  Nobody wants to see our fellow Americans die.  But, those sons and daughters died for America and freedom. To exploit those fallen soldiers in the name of "protest" is simply wrong.

Actually, according to the Socialist Worker, Sheehan said: “He planned a five-week vacation while we’re in the middle of war, and I’m never going to be able to enjoy another vacation because he killed my only son. If he doesn’t come out and talk to me in Crawford, I’ll follow him to D.C. and camp out on his lawn there until he finds the integrity to talk to someone whose life he has ruined. “Casey was murdered by Bush and his insane, arrogant, callous foreign policy. What did my son die for? Last week, Bush said my son died in a noble cause. And I want to ask him what that noble cause is."

Thank you very much baker!

Still didn't find anything even close to Cindy saying dubya was a "murderer". Miler. Swing and a miss....Strike three. You Mod and Guy all took a crack at it.

Now who's the swing and miss? Looks like you just got shut down by baker.

sorry i may have misunderstood you to be saying there was a presidential moratorium (altho in a way i guess that's true since the pentagon's moratorium on photographs at dover was started by the first president bush). incidentally, here's barbara bush's response when asked if she hadda problem with the restriction on photos of caskets bearing the remains of those killed in action: "Why should we hear about body bags and death and how many? ... Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

Which means exactly what? This is not the current first lady is it? Nope. What Barbara Bush says or does or does not say has absolutely no bearing on the current situation.

sorry i may have misunderstood you to be saying there was a presidential moratorium (altho in a way i guess that's true since the pentagon's moratorium on photographs at dover was started by the first president bush).

Wrong again.


Since the end of the Vietnam War, presidents have worried that their military actions would lose support once the public glimpsed the remains of U.S. soldiers arriving at air bases in flag-draped caskets.

To this problem, the Bush administration has found a simple solution: It has ended the public dissemination of such images by banning news coverage and photography of dead soldiers' homecomings on all military bases.


In March, on the eve of the Iraq war, a directive arrived from the Pentagon at U.S. military bases. "There will be no arrival ceremonies for, or media coverage of, deceased military personnel returning to or departing from Ramstein [Germany] airbase or Dover [Del.] base, to include interim stops," the Defense Department said, referring to the major ports for the returning remains.


But the photos of coffins arriving at Andrews and elsewhere continued to appear through the Clinton administration. In 1996, Dover made an exception to allow filming of Clinton's visit to welcome the 33 caskets with remains from Commerce Secretary Ronald H. Brown's plane crash. In 1998, Clinton went to Andrews to see the coffins of Americans killed in the terrorist bombing in Nairobi. Dover also allowed public distribution of photos of the homecoming caskets after the terrorist attack on the USS Cole in 2000.

The photos of coffins continued for the first two years of the current Bush administration, from Ramstein and other bases. Then, on the eve of the Iraq invasion, word came from the Pentagon that other bases were to adopt Dover's policy of making the arrival ceremonies off limits.

"Whenever we go into a conflict, there's a certain amount of guidance that comes down the pike," said Lt. Olivia Nelson, a spokeswoman for Dover. "It's a consistent policy across the board. Where it used to apply only to Dover, they've now made it very clear it applies to everyone."