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Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?

Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?

Double standards in the platform wars

https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=74748

Imagine this scenario: Longhorn comes out and Windows Movie Maker, Remote Desktop, and Outlook Express were no longer part of the OS.  Instead, Microsoft included them in a seperate $70 package. And then imagine that Longhorn was essentially a Windows XP Service Pack 3 with a bundled Google Desktop Search like function, a Lite version the DesktopX Run-Time, and a few other niceties.  How do you think people would react? How do you think the media would react?  Probably not with glowing praise.

But that's exactly what has happened with Apple.  A few years ago, Apple was touting MacOS X as the way to make movies and DVDs and manage your photos and other such things. It included a pretty nice DVD making program and a pretty strong movie making program.  But as the latest version of MacOS X shows, Apple has no problem removing significant programs from its OS and charging for them seperately. Some might say that's the ultimate "bait and switch".  Whatever you want to call it, I think most would agree that if Microsoft had done the same thing, there'd probably be something just short of a riot.

That isn't to say MacOS X Tiger isn't a great operating system -- it is.  But while people are fawning praise upon Apple and their OS-making abilities, people also need to take a step back, put down the Steve Jobs brand Kool-Aid and take a serious look at what they're getting for their $129 upgrade.  Of course, any time anyone criticizes Apple or the Mac, even in the most mild form, the Mac zealots come out to vigorously defend it. This in turn makes reasoned discussion a lot more difficult. But one Mac/PC user, Paul Boyer, has written an article that gives his experiences with Tiger.

Paul Boyer, has created countless skins, themes, and of course his incredible packages of icons that have been freely downloaded by millions of people uses his computers as tools to do everything from graphics design to recording TV shows.  And he's just upgraded to MacOS Tiger.  He's not an OS advocate. He's not hard core. He's a more typical, casual consumer. And he's not happy.  While he can appreciate the improvements in Tiger, he also feels he's getting jerked around a bit by Apple. People criticize Microsoft as the evil empire and yet some of the actions Apple takes seem to be pretty bold.  Read the whole article with an open mind and let us know what you think.

41,465 views 96 replies
Reply #51 Top
I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do.


I'm sorry, but I think you're being naïve and giving the general populace too much credit as a whole. Not everyone's as moral as you.
Reply #52 Top
you're just making an uneducated assinine assumption


Ever lived on a college campus this millennium? I would hardly call the statement asinine, nor would I call it uneducated.

.I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do.


Speaking of uneducated assumptions, where did you get this 99.9% statistic, eh? I admitted my cynicism, no need to call me asinine.

I am glad you purchase all of your software; it seems rare this day in age (yes, another cynical comment from me). And I’m sorry you took personal offense to my statement.
Reply #53 Top

JoeUser aside...the average age of frequenters of Wincustomize.com, and in particular its skinners is well out of nappies [diapers] and is surprisingly not all that likely to be quite like your average smells-like-teen-spirit "OMG Napster just died what AM I to do for my warez?" kiddies who may be closer to your socio-economic circles.

Yes, everyone loves playing 'rash-generaliser' but don't be too certain you know everyone here...

...or anywhere...

Reply #54 Top
Forgot to add...21 and 23 puts you both well below the average...
Reply #55 Top
kiddies who may be closer to your socio-economic circles


I certainly can’t deny that, Jafo . I do not want to imply that the "frequenters of Wincustomize.com" engage in any software stealing. My statements were based on observations of those around where I have lived for the past four years (a dormitory, just graduated, hallelujah).

Sorry to get things so off topic.
Reply #56 Top

Back on topic....my guess is that Apple DOES get away with 'things'...in comparison with MS.

MS is always portrayed as 'all-that-is-evil-in-the-world' so is closely scrutinised, whereas the glorious 'Apple Mac' is a joy to behold...symbolizing the David/Goliath underdog nice-guy mentality that DOESNOWRONG.

So while the cat's away.....

Reply #58 Top
No, Paxx, my original statement is correct. I've used OS X since the week of release back in 2001 and am quite aware of the situation. If you even knew what "Opener" was then you wouldn't call it a virus. Likewise the MP3Concept application was an example of a Finder level exploit that has long been patched now. Neither was self-propating and the former required someone to have root level access to install it. There are ZERO viruses for OS X in the wild. So for Mac users there is zero need to spend money on AV software as there is nothing it can protect you from. Now when the day finally comes that a virus actually exists in the wild to effect me, it would then perhaps make sense to arm ones self but at this point it's a waste of $$$ to buy Norton upgrades every year. As for my Windows using co-workers and friends... it's up to them to protect themselves.


XP Home is missing many features from Pro that are comparable and commonly used by Mac users on OS X so Pro is the correct choice: EFS, Multiple languages out of the box, Access Control, among others... Home is less secure. Comparable networking features (ease of use is not being debated). These are certainly more commonly useful than AV software on OS X.
Reply #59 Top
Not That I Want To Get Involved With The Whole Windows Vs Macs Debate, But One Thing
Caught My Eye.

I'm afraid you're wrong. There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X?


Paxx Is Right, DVForge Is The Name and The Guy Behind It Is a Fellow Who Calls
Himself "PowerJack" over At www.spymac.com He's Pretty Much a Joke In The Mac Community And A Convicted Fellon. The Competition Was Pulled Because (According To PowerJack) He Was Advised To Do So From a Friend Lawyer. In Short He Pulled It Because It Is Against The Law To Make a Contest Like His. The Person I'm Quoting Seems To Be a Stock Apple Eating Mactivist (They Are Two a Penny Over At Spymac) Please Don't Use That Poor Excuse For a Buisness Man As An Example For So Called Mac Purity.

But Since You're So Sure Macs Are Completly Protected From Any Malicious Activity. Assuming You're Using Tiger + Safari With Safari's Default Settings, Click Here http: / / stephan.com/widgets/zaptastic/
Reply #60 Top

WOWfactor.555.  ...PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT-LINK TO ANY MALICIOUS SCRIPT FOR ANY REASON.

That is not acceptable.

Sure it may 'just' be 'annoying', as the site mentions, and so is your typing style.  The latter can be ignored, the former will not be.

Reply #62 Top
It already exists. It's called OS X. Maybe that's why people are so disappointed with Tiger. It's hard to improve something that's already so perfect. And no need to pay triple the asking price, it costs less than XP Pro.

(.. of course I'm not being completely serious here, but OS X is the closest OS to perfection I've ever seen.)


Huh?

Are there a lot of big businesses jumping all over this close to perfect OS that I do not know about? Seems like they would if it is close to perfect.

Are you a network administrator that has the experience to claim such a thing, with experience on large LAN and WAN systems on both OS X and XP Pro platforms?
Reply #63 Top
WOWfactor.555 -

I wouldn't think it's wise to call an Admin of this site names or not heed his advice. Your typing habits are annoying. Quite annoying. And guess what? I know you can type normal because you have a few threads running around here where you type just like us.

For example:https://www.wincustomize.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=1&AID=74758

I fear if you keep up your style of typing more and more people will just ignore you.
Reply #64 Top
Hear, hear Terry...
Reply #65 Top
Microsoft has a long history of not charging for upgrades to its operating systems. If you have been using a PC at home for the last 10 years and have kept up to date with Microsoft's OS's, then you would have only paid for OS upgrades 4-times: 98, 98SE, ME, XP (personally, I passed on 98SE, but jumped all over ME, nobody said I was the brightest bulb in the pack ). So I would definitely be pissed off at Microsoft if they tried charging me for an annual OS upgrade like Mac has done with OS X. Perhaps a long-time Mac user could fill in more details on Apple's OS history over the last 10 years.

Windows 95 August 1995
Windows 95 SP1 December 1995
Windows 95A-C February 1996 to November 1997
Windows 98 June 1998
Windows 98SE May 1999
Windows 98 SP1 June 1999
Windows ME September 2000
Windows XP Home October 2001
Windows XP SP1 September 2002
Windows XP SP1a February 2003
Windows XP SP2 August 2004

OS X Cyan March 2001
OS X 10.1 Puma October 2001
OS X 10.2 Jaguar August 2002
OS X 10.3 Panther June 2003
OS X 10.4 Tiger May 2004
Reply #66 Top
I purposely left out Windows 2000, though a lot of home users upgraded to that after Windows 9x, because it was more of an OS with businesses in mind and the replacement for Windows NT.
Reply #67 Top
I never knew Windows 95 and 98 had service packs. Interesting.
Reply #68 Top
WOWfactor, I stand by my point. There are no viruses for OS X. That isn't a virus anyway, it's a Dashboard widget installed via an exploit, and I may be wrong, but I don't thing Dashboard is closely interwoven into the OS enough for a widget to actually cause any real damage. And What The Hell Is With Typing Like This? You're using extra effort to make things more difficult and annoying to read. Are you trying to get attention? It'S aLmOsT aS aNnOyInG aS tYpInG lIkE tHiS.

Corky, no, a lot of big businesses aren't jumping all over this close to perfect OS for the simple reason it would be extremely expensive to buy new machines and software. Perhaps if Microsoft hadn't indulged in illegal activity early on in order to create a monopoly, the Mac OS and other OSes would already be in much more widespread use. No, sorry, not perhaps, definitely. Windows, which I will admit has come a long way from the travesty it used to be, is an inferior Operating System. This time I am being completely serious, but I suppose this is also only my opinion.

Essencay, 95 and 98 didn't have Service Packs, they only had Service Releases, which you couldn't upgrade to, you just got with new copies of Windows or new computers. They were purely for fixing bugs and stability, and hardly compare to OS X releases or even Service Packs.

Also, 2000 was a replacement for 9x as well as NT, just like XP. And XP was basically just a service pack for 2000 anyway, adding many annoyances, a couple of features and a few graphical effects like 16-bit alpha blended icons, which Mac OS has had since 8.6, IIRC.

And about earlier Mac OS versions, point upgrades (version x.1, x.2, etc.) were generally free except in a couple of instances. But with X, Apple kept the naming convention, but made each version practically a whole new system (More than the jump from 2000 to XP), apart from the upgrade to 10.0 to 10.1, which was basically a large Service Pack and therefore free. You're also forgetting Apple released 9 updates (10.3.1-10.3.9), roughly equivalent to Service Packs (except you get new features too!), for Panther in the space of a year and a half, compared to Microsoft's two Service Packs (count them ) and constant security patches (which aren't really a good thing, they shouldn't need that many. I guess it shows the quality of Microsoft's products).

Also, a couple of other things to support my points (I used one previously in another topic, but it's still relevant):

From AnandTech.com:
I'm still just as much of a Windows/PC user as I've ever been (potentially now with more open of a mind), but the argument that Apple charging $130 for Tiger is like Microsoft charging $130 for Service Pack 2 is quite possibly the worst argument that I've ever heard. On my best, most verbose day, I couldn't come up with enough stuff to write about a service pack as I've talked about today here with Tiger.


And from Wikipedia:
In comparison to Microsoft Windows, some critics point to the lack of upgrade pricing on Mac OS X; users of previous versions have to pay full price for a new version. However, the upgrade price for Windows is actually more than the full price for Mac OS X ($199 and $129 respectively from the producers' websites), with the full price for a new version of Windows being more than double the price of the full version of Mac OS X ($299 from Microsoft's website). Customers who purchase a Macintosh between the time a new version of Mac OS X is announced and the time it starts shipping preinstalled on new machines have typically been exempted; Apple's "Up-To-Date" program entitles them to upgrade for a reduced price (this was US$19.95 for Jaguar and Panther, but is only US$9.95 for Tiger). It should also be noted that as potential users of Mac OS X must own a Mac, and therefore a Mac OS, all boxed versions of OS X could be considered upgrades.


And one last thing, OS X 10.0 was called Cheetah, not Cyan.
Reply #69 Top
Eroticus Prime,

Thanks for answering.

I was indeed curious (and still am) as to whether the Mac OS can be used as a large network platform.

Windows XP Pro can actually be used for such a purpose, though I know that most businesses will use it for the desktop and workstation OS - then use some combination of Windows Server, SQL Server, and Exchange Server.

I know our business uses XP Pro, SQL Server, and we are getting Exchange Server instead of out-sourcing for e-mail.

I do believe that an OS should be "bench-marked" if you will by being tested in LAN and WAN environments before claiming "Better" or "Best". When put to that kind of test, all the issues become clear because people will try to "push the envelope".
Reply #70 Top
EP....Thanks for the clarification. So much for my trying to find accurate info on the net. I still think that 2000 was geared towards business and ME towards home users. Kona, you're right, but I do have a disc somewhere at home for updating Win9x because of Y2K.
Reply #71 Top
Corky, I don't see any reason why OS X couldn't be used as a large network platform, it is UNIX-based after all, and UNIX-based OSes run the majority or internet servers I believe.

OS X Client can be used as a server about as well as XP Pro, maybe moreso because of the extra free UNIX-based/open source software available for it. And of course there's OS X Server which I'm sure is just as competent as Windows Server in most, if not all, respects.

And that's not a bad idea.

I probably should also mention that no, I'm not a network admin, and also that I have a lot more experience with XP and Server 2003 than I have with OS X, so I try to talk about only what I know (but I'm sure I fail ).

Essencay, no problem. I enjoy dispelling misinformation.
Reply #72 Top
EP,

Sounds like there is an option for new businesses to use then, eh?

It should be interesting to see what will happen over the next 5 years.

Microsoft's "2003 Server System" looks like it is really being geared towards automated tasks and comprehensive services to enable small IT departments to manage large company networks.

From the bits and pieces I have learned at work helping the Network Admins (friends), and the literature I have read - Microsoft does not seem to be doing any dirty business with the server OS system, just focusing on implementing deployment for Windows based applications/services, as well as being compatible with other companies software where possible (a prudent move, IMO).

Mac may be hard pressed to compete, but we shall see.

Cheers for now.
Reply #73 Top
Yeah, I actually quite like Server 2003, for a Microsoft product. (As you probably already guessed, I'm not exactly a huge fan of the company. )

And personally I think Microsoft will start to lose market share (if they haven't started to already) on the desktop market at least, they don't have nearly as much power on the server market thanks to Linux, and slowly but surely lose their near-monopoly. I just wish I could see 20 years into the future to see if I'm right.

(Sorry for my cumbersome sentences )

Cheers.
Reply #74 Top
#21 by Skinner kona0197
Wed, March 30, 2005 10:17 PM

I had some talks with some of the Admins and I realize I was being very chilish. It is not my place to tell others how to act on the boards.

So:

Zero: I would like to apoligize for jumping on you about your posting on the boards. You have every right to post what you wish and where you wish. I realize I was out of line. I am very sorry.

WOWFactor: I would like to apoligize for posting about the way you type out you responses in every thread you respond to. It is not my job to tell others how to type. I am sorry.

I just want to get along with people. I will try harder to keep myself in line.


Link

Why don't You Try a Little Harder To Keep Yourself In Line

PS: Glad You Finally Took Notice Of That Thread - I Wondered How Long It Would've
Been Before Someone Commented .. Lol.
Reply #75 Top
WoWfactor555 - I'm not the only person to voice my comments about your typing in this thread. If you read the last few responses you will see that Jafo, Digital Chet and Eroticus Prime also have voiced their problem with your typing.

I was just trying to tell you that if you keep up that kind of typing more and more people will ignore you.