Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?

Double standards in the platform wars

https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=74748

Imagine this scenario: Longhorn comes out and Windows Movie Maker, Remote Desktop, and Outlook Express were no longer part of the OS.  Instead, Microsoft included them in a seperate $70 package. And then imagine that Longhorn was essentially a Windows XP Service Pack 3 with a bundled Google Desktop Search like function, a Lite version the DesktopX Run-Time, and a few other niceties.  How do you think people would react? How do you think the media would react?  Probably not with glowing praise.

But that's exactly what has happened with Apple.  A few years ago, Apple was touting MacOS X as the way to make movies and DVDs and manage your photos and other such things. It included a pretty nice DVD making program and a pretty strong movie making program.  But as the latest version of MacOS X shows, Apple has no problem removing significant programs from its OS and charging for them seperately. Some might say that's the ultimate "bait and switch".  Whatever you want to call it, I think most would agree that if Microsoft had done the same thing, there'd probably be something just short of a riot.

That isn't to say MacOS X Tiger isn't a great operating system -- it is.  But while people are fawning praise upon Apple and their OS-making abilities, people also need to take a step back, put down the Steve Jobs brand Kool-Aid and take a serious look at what they're getting for their $129 upgrade.  Of course, any time anyone criticizes Apple or the Mac, even in the most mild form, the Mac zealots come out to vigorously defend it. This in turn makes reasoned discussion a lot more difficult. But one Mac/PC user, Paul Boyer, has written an article that gives his experiences with Tiger.

Paul Boyer, has created countless skins, themes, and of course his incredible packages of icons that have been freely downloaded by millions of people uses his computers as tools to do everything from graphics design to recording TV shows.  And he's just upgraded to MacOS Tiger.  He's not an OS advocate. He's not hard core. He's a more typical, casual consumer. And he's not happy.  While he can appreciate the improvements in Tiger, he also feels he's getting jerked around a bit by Apple. People criticize Microsoft as the evil empire and yet some of the actions Apple takes seem to be pretty bold.  Read the whole article with an open mind and let us know what you think.

41,464 views 96 replies
Reply #1 Top
Apple users have to pay for non-major upgrades? $129 for OSX 10.3 to OSX 10.4?
Reply #2 Top
Not too long ago, Microsoft office was included with all systems. Now its just trial/student/or mothing is included. MS office is way WAY more than $70.00. So, my answer to yor question would be Yes, Microsoft can get away with it.
Reply #3 Top
MS Office was NEVER bundled as part of Windows.  What OEMs chose to bundle with their computers is a totally different matter.
Reply #4 Top
I stand corrected.
Under the skin though I am sure MS had certain "arrangements" with outside manufacturers to include it in the packages. Dont mind me, I just know that MS has a group of people in an office right now conspiring on new ways to get my money.
Reply #5 Top
#1...absolutely...it's been that way for all of the OSX 10.x releases. They paid for 10.0, then 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4....

Does Apple get away with stuff that MS would be crucified for? Not even a doubt!!!!!
Reply #6 Top
I think Microsoft would indeed get flamed - after all it doesn't take much to prompt MS complaints from average users.

The network administrators I know, really understand MS products and though they feel MS products are a bit expensive (as do I), they do not get rattled when problems arise - they perform educated troubleshooting skills and in almost all cases, find and fix the issue. This speaks well toward identifying positive things created by Microsoft.

Though I have little to no experience with Mac's, I do know they have been a trademark graphics computer, and they seem to handle those functions really well. Beyond that, I do not know much about their stability in a complicated network, or capabilities in handling systems on a global level.

I remember using Office 4.2 when I got my first computer (along with Windows 3.1), and can at least say that the Office XP I currently have, blows away the old 4.2 product.

I would see this as a real step towards improving a product.

I would expect no less from Mac in removing a program or suite of programs from the OS, and charging for it.

I garner from Paul's article, that Mac is tending to follow a lot of manufacturers in offering some improvements, while removing other components that used to be included. I work in Quality Control in the manufacturing industry, so have a bit of experience in seeing this trend.

Perhaps this type of marketing will actually provide some common ground for both camps.

A good thought provoking article done by Mormegil, IMHO.
Reply #8 Top
No one cares. The only people who use Macs are whacko vegatarians and parasitic government employees who cannot find an honest job. Why even comment on Macs?
Reply #9 Top
I thought people were all for removing bloat from programs & OS's

Woodbridge runs
Reply #10 Top
They paid for 10.0, then 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4

Has it been like that for the pre X versions as well?

I'm just thinking, I'd be pretty annoyed to pay for Service Packs for Windows. Though, I realize that these OSX versions are more than service packs, they are still not a major upgrade. Still the same version number, just another revision number. Just came to think of something while I wrote this... Windows 2000 was version 5, and Windows XP is version 5.1. I suppose it's the same then...
Reply #11 Top
Apple get's away with murder...it's not even a question. They rip off their own 3rd-party developers...and bundled it with their OS. If Microsoft did the same thing...they would get sued for being a monopoly. Oh...wait...Microsoft made their OWN program...bundled it with the OS and got sued for being a monopoly...
Reply #12 Top
exactly as Hus said: apples prob. doing this to avoid being sued/taken to court for monopolising their other products with their OS (though with MS, some of the stuff you get with windows isnt that great next to a commercial product, or that some of the "rival" software out there isnt as good as what comes free with Windows... <cough-realplayer-cough>)
Reply #13 Top
OS X has NEVER included a DVD making program. I assume you're referring to iDVD and this has always been a separate app, no more a part of OS X than AppleWorks. I do have to say I was not surprised to see that iMovie and iPhoto were not shipped with Tiger as they were with Panther. The versions included with the OS have usually been outdated releases the last couple of years anyway. As well, neither app started out being bundled with the OS so I guess Apple can do as they please. iPhoto used to be a free download but, IIRC, iMovie was something like $20 before they began tossing it in. Panther users didn't get free copies of iLife 04 so I wasn't expecting Tiger users to get iLife 05.

The bottom line is that no one really 'loses' these apps, though. They can be re-installed from the Restore CDs/DVD that came with the Mac originally, or the "iLife" CD, that is included with Macs of a recent vintage.


...and to compare OS X 10.4 with a Service Pack is just laughable, I'm sorry but it is. Is XP just a service pack for Windows 2000 and that just a service pack to NT4? Was Win98 or WinME just a service pack for Win95? Each major release of OS X has had quite a few FREE 'service packs' of their own. 10.3 users have received 9 of them, so far. I think 10.2 had 8 of them and 10.1 had 5 or so...

Personally, I think Tiger is the best release of OS X yet, by far. I was not overly excited about Panther AT ALL... and certainly wasn't excited to plunk down money for it but I was more than happy to fork over the cash for 10.4 and I haven't been disappointed.
Reply #14 Top
Actually Douglas, I think part of the reason Apple is doing this is because the iLife suite is on a 12 month upgrade cycle and OS X is now on a 18-24 month cycle, supposedly. There have been two new releases of the iLife apps between 10.3 in 2003 and 10.4 in 2005 neither of which were free to Panther users.
Reply #15 Top
All right, I just looked it up on Apple's store cause it was bugging me. Macs have always marketed to new users how much when you buy a Mac you have everything you need, simple and easy to use, right out of the box. So, I wsa thinking, how can they remove iLife? Well, I stand corrected. iLife may not be shipped as part of the OS if you buy the OS seperately, but it seems to be included with every purchase of a new Mac, as well as AppleWorks (a sortof Office kinda suite). So, indeed, new Apple users still get pretty much everything they need right out of the box.
Reply #16 Top
Just wondering if market-share has anything to do with the fact that Apple gets away with more- it's still outright tiny compared to the MicroSoft giant. People will always attack the big-dog, it's a bigger target.
Reply #17 Top
paxx: Yes, Apple have not changed their bundling methods. OS X has never shipped with the complete iLife suite, anyway, nor AppleWorks...but all the consumer model hardware ships with the above plus quite a few 3rd party apps.

The only bundling hole is on their "Pro" machines, actually... no Appleworks or iWork, just a MS Office Test Drive.
Reply #18 Top
I just spoke with a colleague of mine, a Mac user through more than 15 years. He says he has every OSX box at home: 10.0 - 10.1 - 10.2 - 10.3 and now 10.4. Not in one of them is iLife included, they never did include it according to him. If you buy a Mac with the OS pre-installed, you are most likely to have iLife installed though.
Reply #20 Top
hallelujah Brad! though some details might be inaccurate, it says it all: Apple does get away with stuff MS couldn't possibly consider doing.
XP is not a service pack to 2000 Pro. "Version 5" only serves to remind that both are built on a similar NT5-core (NTFS + networking tools)!
Longhorn will be Windows version 6.0 since it incorporates new core technologies.
Anyhow why bother talking about an OS that won't let y'all play games or let ya do what you want and not what Lord Steve Jobs thought he'd let y'all do?
Reply #22 Top
It seems I remember a court case (Antitrust) that went on for years regarding MS's bundling and integration of IE, burning software, and many other "features/programs" into Windows. Third party developers were bitching that this practice hurt their ability to sell their programs, so Microsoft was FORCED to add the Control Panel options to remove these programs from Windows. And in Europe, Microsoft is now being FORCED to sell a version of Windows that does not include Windows Media Player.

So as I see it, Apple, by removing these "features" from OS X itself is precluding the possibility of these lawsuits. Simple as that. You still get them when you buy a new machine, but that's no different than all the "crap" software that's preloaded on any HP or Dell you buy in a store. And with the new Mini I bought, iLife was included as a CD, not preloaded, so I had the option to install those free programs, or not. I like that option.
Reply #23 Top
I expect my computer to play games that are more graphically advanced than on XBOX/PS2 and the likes. A PC is a console if I want it to. MAC lacks this graphics card upgradability + lacks compatibility with most commercial games, therefore limits what you can do on it! I can't play Half Life 2 on any console anyway. If it's not for playing games, neither is it for browsing: so many pages are not loaded as they should on Safari or MAC's MS Internet Explorer. MAC's are a bummer!

wocowboy: the fact that Apple bundles iTunes, THEIR MUSIC STORE, in their operating system along with Quicktime is a severe infrigement of antitrust laws. It hinders competition. And there's a heck more to file a lawsuit against them!
Reply #24 Top

Computers are for working. Buy a console.

Strange....

I want my comp to work so I built my own....a PC

....and I wanted it for 'work' and it does.

....and I wanted it for 'games' and it does.

Why would I [or anyone] want a Mac AND an XBOX?....

Reply #25 Top
MAC lacks this graphics card upgradability

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

...

Wow. You clearly don't know shit about Macs.

... lacks compatibility with most commercial games, therefore limits what you can do on it!

Naturally binaries compiled for an operating system with specific APIs on a certain processor architecture won't run on a different, incompatible operating system that runs on a completely different architecture.

I can't play Half Life 2 on any console anyway.

The Xbox version is probably being shown off at E3 as we speak.

If it's not for playing games, neither is it for browsing: so many pages are not loaded as they should on Safari or MAC's MS Internet Explorer.


Pages are loaded as they should be on standards compliant browsers. I believe Safari is standards compliant. I also believe Firefox is available for the Mac. I also believe IE on any platform is an utter piece of shit.

MAC's are a bummer!

That's just retarded.. I honestly don't know what else I can say to that. Hmm, I guess I can make fun of you capitalising Mac, and using an apostrophe for a plural, which should never, EVER be done.

Clearly you're an idiot.

If you're gonna hate Apple, or Macs (note: no capitals except for the M, and no apostrophe ), at least come up with some valid reasons for doing so.

And Jafo:
Why would I [or anyone] want a Mac AND an XBOX?....


Quite simply because then you have both an excellent (I'd barely call Windoze 'good') computing platform, and a good (well, that's open to debate, maybe I'll say 'decent') gaming platform.