Frogboy Frogboy

Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?

▼

Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?

Double standards in the platform wars

https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=74748
from WinCustomize Forums

Imagine this scenario: Longhorn comes out and Windows Movie Maker, Remote Desktop, and Outlook Express were no longer part of the OS.  Instead, Microsoft included them in a seperate $70 package. And then imagine that Longhorn was essentially a Windows XP Service Pack 3 with a bundled Google Desktop Search like function, a Lite version the DesktopX Run-Time, and a few other niceties.  How do you think people would react? How do you think the media would react?  Probably not with glowing praise.

But that's exactly what has happened with Apple.  A few years ago, Apple was touting MacOS X as the way to make movies and DVDs and manage your photos and other such things. It included a pretty nice DVD making program and a pretty strong movie making program.  But as the latest version of MacOS X shows, Apple has no problem removing significant programs from its OS and charging for them seperately. Some might say that's the ultimate "bait and switch".  Whatever you want to call it, I think most would agree that if Microsoft had done the same thing, there'd probably be something just short of a riot.

That isn't to say MacOS X Tiger isn't a great operating system -- it is.  But while people are fawning praise upon Apple and their OS-making abilities, people also need to take a step back, put down the Steve Jobs brand Kool-Aid and take a serious look at what they're getting for their $129 upgrade.  Of course, any time anyone criticizes Apple or the Mac, even in the most mild form, the Mac zealots come out to vigorously defend it. This in turn makes reasoned discussion a lot more difficult. But one Mac/PC user, Paul Boyer, has written an article that gives his experiences with Tiger.

Paul Boyer, has created countless skins, themes, and of course his incredible packages of icons that have been freely downloaded by millions of people uses his computers as tools to do everything from graphics design to recording TV shows.  And he's just upgraded to MacOS Tiger.  He's not an OS advocate. He's not hard core. He's a more typical, casual consumer. And he's not happy.  While he can appreciate the improvements in Tiger, he also feels he's getting jerked around a bit by Apple. People criticize Microsoft as the evil empire and yet some of the actions Apple takes seem to be pretty bold.  Read the whole article with an open mind and let us know what you think.

41,465 views 96 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top

 Mr Eroticus Prime ....'bang for buck' is better with one decent PC versus BOTH a Mac AND a Console.

You could even call it the 'greener choice' .... less resource usage than with 2 'machines'...

But, each to his own.

Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top

 Mr Eroticus Prime ....'bang for buck' is better with one decent PC versus BOTH a Mac AND a Console.

You could even call it the 'greener choice' .... less resource usage with 2 'machines'...

But, each to his own.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jafo
Why would I [or anyone] want a Mac AND an XBOX?...

Those are the two things I live and die by. Mac and Xbox, FinalCut and Halo. It pisses me off so much when someone states that a PC is better than Mac because of games, just to buy a PC and never play games on it. People need to pull their head out of their ass and accept that just because there is a limited number of games on Mac dosn't make it a bad system. If that where the case then Linux should have died years ago. If you are so concerned with games then you should seriously conceder your life and marital status. Many people do not have 3 grand to lay down on a PC that will be outdated in a year; you constantly have to keep upgrading to play games. So, they buy these $100-$300 gaming systems that last 4-5 years and that are guaranteed to run any game made for it. Anyway, if you took the cost of all 4 OSX releases, added iLife and iWork (4x$129=$516+$70+$70) = $656. Now lets take XP Pro, add Office, antivirus, and a decent burning program ($300+$300+$50+$50) = $700. If that is too much math for you, then stop playing games and stay in school. There are about the same... and that is if you bought OSX 10.0. If you started with OSX 10.3, then the price difference is clearer. Mac > PC. Now stop with the constant Mac, Windows, Jobs, Gates bashing and get on with your life.
Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmm, zealots telling others to stop being zealots. . .

Silly.
Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
"Naturally binaries compiled for an operating system with specific APIs on a certain processor architecture won't run on a different, incompatible operating system that runs on a completely different architecture."
"Pages are loaded as they should be on standards compliant browsers. I believe Safari is standards compliant. I also believe Firefox is available for the Mac."

Y'all are all hat and no cattle. Stating truths to counter valid arguments won't get'cha far yonder. Games developpers ain't big on Macs because it's all about money: designing games for a platform that's not popular is a waste of time.
Firefox (also available on Mac) is not 100% compatible, neither is Safari and no matter how much you dislike IE: it's the most standards-compliant browser. I tested'em all, there's always something not loading in Safari or Mac's IE version (javascript, forms, tables...). Now personally I only expect from my web browser to load pages properly. Others like theirs to do cool stuff like playing our anthem while a page loads, I don't.
"MAC lacks this graphics card upgradability" (open your peepers)
I stand by my claim. I didn't say Macs had no upgradable graphics card, I only said that if you have a PC, you sure have more cards to choose from and better optimized driver. Now try proving me wrong.
I never said I hated Mac, I've been using Steve Grenier's Tiger WB theme for months now and it sure looks awesome. On the other hand calling me an idiot for spelling fast is so gay.
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WolfwoodX: (if you were vehemently talking to me). I rarely play games because college takes away all my spare time, but then on vacation I can take that same good ol' laptop of mine and play HL2 with full details. XP Pro doesn't cost $300 and as a student I got Office Pro for 100 bucks. Your comparison is irrelevant and I ain't married. Your last sentence is short of hypocrisy.
Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Your last sentence is short of hypocrisy.


You are too kind. I found it to be full-on hypocrisy.
Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Anyway, if you took the cost of all 4 OSX releases, added iLife and iWork (4x$129=$516+$70+$70) = $656. Now lets take XP Pro, add Office, antivirus, and a decent burning program ($300+$300+$50+$50) = $700


Hum, why do you not compare apples with apples?
OSX + iLife + iWork + Norton Antivirus = 129$ + 79$ + 79$ + 49.95$ = 336.95$
XP Home upgrade + Roxio's Easy Media Creator + Works 8 + Norton Antivirus = 99$ + 69.95 + 49.95$ + 49.95$ = 268.85$

Now, that is comparing similar products on both platforms.
Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
surely this is why it's so important to have choices in life...windows/osx/linux...why not just use what you are happy with, and stop critising other platforms....i'm happy with xp, i have friends happy with osx....we live in a big world with space for everyone....no one is forcing anyone to use anything....i think the phrase is 'don't worry, be happy'
Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Paxx, why would one NEED Norton on the Mac? There are ZERO Mac OS X viruses / trojans in the wild. Secondly, I'd argue that you should compare to XP Pro not Home. Home is rather crippled compared to OS X.... (apples to apples, right?)

OSX + iLife + iWork = 129$ + 79$ + 79$ = 287$
XP Pro upg + Roxio's Easy Media Creator + Works 8 + Norton Antivirus = 199$ + 69.95 + 49.95$ + 49.95$ = 368.85$
Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top

It pisses me off so much when someone states that a PC is better than Mac because of games, just to buy a PC and never play games on it.

I never said ONCE that Mac was an inferior computer.....reason being the only 'Mac' I have is an Apple 2e ... so I'm hardly an 'expert', unlike others who attest to such.

But...

Currently I have installed, mostly without even needing their CD inserted...full installs....

30 full games

16 Demos.

They range from Solitaire to Doom 3 and NFSU.

Most of my computer time is as Admin on Wincustomize.com ... so it's not 'all' games.

I also am a self-employed Architect .... and it's a work machine as well.

Mac alone wouldn't handle that....and neither would a Console.

Oh...and my marital status is just fine, and utterly immaterial.

Never presume.

Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
jtfolden, I'm sorry, but you need an antivirus even on OSX. Not having one is taking risks, as there are indeed viruses on OSX. Not as many as on the PC, but they are there nevertheless. And furthermore, OSX users can spread PC viruses (to friends, co-workers, etc.) even when they're not affected.
As for XP Pro, most Pro users don't need it. It hs features that most don't even use, and that OSX may have but not nearly as friendly to use as Pro. OSX may have Apache, but you can get Apache for free on a PC with XP Home. Sure OSX has sendmail, but really, who uses it? What other OSX feature, other than Web server and mail server does XP Pro has over XP Home that most OSX users actually use? In my comparison, I chose XP Home over Pro because I didn't feel that OSX had the features that warrents a Windows user to purchase XP Pro, which is usually easy and powerful networking (Samba isn't so easy to configure, Apple still needs to work on that), and easy to set up solid web, ftp and mail servers.
Reply #39 from WinCustomize Forums Top
But anyway. I was just making a point, but a worthless one. Macs all come shipped with all these (including a trial version of Norton I believe), as most PC's ship with all of these as well, or the equivalent. Very few people, if any, would go out and buy the list of software above, either on a Mac or on a PC.
Reply #40 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh Dear - the mac vs windows war again.............

All that verbal abuse - tut, tut, tut

Each to his own and respect the choices of others - now there's a concept!


Windows vs Mac? When the PERFECT OS comes out - I'll pay triple the asking price
Reply #41 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Personally, I like MacOS X and Macs.  All things being equal, I would probably choose a Mac over a PC.  But things aren't equal and I trust Apple a lot less than I trust Microsoft.
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top
XP Home upgrade + Roxio's Easy Media Creator + Works 8 + Norton Antivirus = 99$ + 69.95 + 49.95$ + 49.95$ = 268.85$


Stop paying or antivirus: http://free.grisoft.com/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5 AVGfree

Who buy's roxio? Folks who use it are usually stuck with it because it came with their burner... nero is like $80 bucks.

Works? OpenOffice is as good as Works, and free.

But all this is moot in a world where those with the knowhow to build their own PC will probably pirate the software they want. This might be cynical and over-generalized, but that's how I feel.
Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'd rather trust a company that isn't a convicted monopolist over on that is.


And I prefer a company that's under constant investigation by national, international, public, and private organizations around the world making sure the company provides quality products and plays fair instead of one thats playing under the radar.

I trust companies that are honest about their motivation: money. Not ones that try and play on my personal beliefs.
Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Valid point, Jafo, can't really argue with what you said first, but what exactly can't a Mac handle?

TexasJoe:
Games developpers ain't big on Macs because it's all about money: designing games for a platform that's not popular is a waste of time.


I'm not saying the Mac is a strong gaming platform, but there are enough games for it (Doom 3, UT2K4, World of Warcraft, ...) for the average casual gamer to be satisfied with it. Clearly that's not you, so stick with the PC for that reason, not false ones.

Firefox (also available on Mac) is not 100% compatible

It is 100% compatible with standards compliant code, that's why it exists.

IE: it's the most standards-compliant browser. I tested'em all, there's always something not loading in Safari or Mac's IE version (javascript, forms, tables...).

Taken from Wikipedia:
Users switching from Internet Explorer sometimes experience that some websites do not render correctly in Firefox [this can obviously also be applied to other standards-compliant browsers]. This is almost always due to the said website using non standards-compliant Internet Explorer specific code or ActiveX applets on their site.

So if it's not loading, you (or the web designers if you don't mean pages you've written and tested yourself) are not coding it right.

if you have a PC, you sure have more cards to choose from and better optimized driver. Now try proving me wrong.

Naturally, ATi and nVidia sell more cards to PC users so there would be a bigger range. That's not to say that Radeon 7x00s, 8x00s, 9x00s, Xx00s and GeForce 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s haven't been available in prebuilt Macs and or (many) available for separate purchase, because they have. As I said, the range, of course, is not as big, but it's still there. About the drivers, what you say sounds like speculation to me, but (for argument's sake I'll assume you're right), consistent to what I've already said, they sell more cards for PCs, so they'd invest more time and effort in the drivers for those cards.

On the other hand calling me an idiot for spelling fast is so gay.

So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation.
Ooh, and you're a homophobe too. Oh, no, don't tell me, let me guess: you don't actually have anything against homosexuals, you just use gay as a derogatory term because everyone else does? What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!

I can take that same good ol' laptop of mine and play HL2 with full details.

Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac.


paxx:
there are indeed viruses on OSX. Not as many as on the PC, but they are there nevertheless.

I'm afraid you're wrong. There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X?

starkers:
When the PERFECT OS comes out - I'll pay triple the asking price

It already exists. It's called OS X. Maybe that's why people are so disappointed with Tiger. It's hard to improve something that's already so perfect. And no need to pay triple the asking price, it costs less than XP Pro.

(.. of course I'm not being completely serious here, but OS X is the closest OS to perfection I've ever seen.)

Chi Chi Rodriguez:
I trust companies that are honest about their motivation: money. Not ones that try and play on my personal beliefs.

I don't understand what you're saying about Apple. Care to elaborate?
Reply #46 from WinCustomize Forums Top
"Users switching from Internet Explorer sometimes experience that some websites do not render correctly in Firefox [this can obviously also be applied to other standards-compliant browsers]. This is almost always due to the said website using non standards-compliant Internet Explorer specific code or ActiveX applets on their site."
Whatever. I can't do anything about it. All I know is that at least 1/3 of the webpages I visit only come right in MS Internet Explorer. I don't care how they coded xxML codes. All I care is about the results, like most of us do. I guess. My logic would go as far as to say that due to the exponentially increasing number of Internet pages, it's the responsibility of the browser's developers to ensure full compliance. Then standards-compliance seems to prove insufficient. Please feel free to disagree like you always do.

"What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!"
I use Windows not because I'm devoid of self-thinking abilities. My choice of OS is backed up by full knowledge that Mac OS 10.2 (the version that I've tested for months) falls short of Windows XP in terms of ergonomics and productivity. I started using it with an open mind, ready to think different. Still no matter how much good will I put into it, it wouldn't let me do comparatively as much as with Windows XP in a given time. Some folks are more productive with Windows. Others feel more comfortable with OS X. Others yet will just stick with their initial choice stubbornly (though they may just be happy with it, which doesn't mean they're stupid). I ain't one of'em, right.

"So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation."
I might've added in extra punctuation unconsciously to make sure I was getting my point across and you interpreted it right, without twisting all I say.

"Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac."
Here some news for y'all: PCI-Express and MXM technology.

"There are no viruses on OS X."
Though I don't reckon Mac users should need any antivirus software. I'm sure I read somewhere an account of a worm inoculation on Mac OS platform. Mac OS X getting increasingly popular is also in the same process getting attractive to virus coders, whereby arises these offers of Mac OS-based antiviruses by traditional Windows antivirus developers! I'm not sure though the risk is that significant yet.
Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
it's the responsibility of the browser's developers to ensure full compliance. Then standards-compliance is not enough. Feel free to disagree like you always do.

Happily. If the Firefox developers added support for non-standards compliant code, that would encourage people not to bother making their code standards compliant, which would defeat the purpose of implementing standards in the first place (which exist so pages look and function the same no matter what browser or platform you're using).

Here some news for y'all: PCI-Express and MXM technology.

Actually, I didn't know about MXM, quite impressive.
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one.


Nope, you're wrong. There are a few, one of them is called "Opener". The difference is that the Mac ones yet don't spread automatically, they have to spread manually. They can be disguised as something else, such as a new security update (ex: the PhantomUpdate exploit) or as an MP3 (ex: the MP3virus.gen proof of concept). The first Mac OS X virus came out in 2003 : the MP3virus proof of concept wasn't so damageable, but just a proof of concept and just displayed a dialog, proving that OS X could indeed be attacked.
But it's pretty much a fact that OS X isn't perfect and more viruses will come out as time goes by.

Also

Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X?


Yes, it was DVForge offering $25,000, and the reward wasn't to write just any virus, as they already exist, but one that would spread by itself. But did you hear also that the project was canceled?
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm pretty sure those exploits were patched, and Opener's just a malware script, not a real virus.
Heh, after a quick Google search, look what I found: http://www.lindqvist.com/index.php?ID=1735 You'd have to be pretty stupid to infect yourself with that.

And yes, I did hear the contest was cancelled, but I couldn't remember the details earlier and didn't think mentioning it was particularly relevant.
Reply #50 from WinCustomize Forums Top
But all this is moot in a world where those with the knowhow to build their own PC will probably pirate the software they want. This might be cynical and over-generalized, but that's how I feel.


I built my last three PC's....I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do. You're not being cynical and over-generalized, you're just making an uneducated assinine assumption.