Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

96,523 views 522 replies
Reply #201 Top
I think the first step should be to simply increase the incentive to subscribe. I mean to be honest, the current incentives don't have a strong enough appeal for most people.

Incentive #1: Helps the site and community ... which only appeals to the people that feel a strong need to show appreciation. It may be sad, but this is an extrememly small percentage of our population today.

Incentive #2: Higher status ... I'm sure this is a stronger pull for the average user. Promotion of status and feeling more important is appealing to many. But, for $20 most will pass.

Incentive #3: Skin browser and Premium Suites ... a nice little bonus but most won't shell out $20 for it.

I imagine that there are a large number of people, that like myself, are pulled by all 3 incentives, but not quite enough to shell out the $20. I don't think it would take much more to push them over the edge into reaching for there wallet.

Hopefully we can think of some way of increasing these incentives (even if just a little bit) without crippling the site to the occasional user.

Ultimately incentive #1 grew stronger for me, and I purchased my subscription a few hours ago. But, If I was promised just a little more for my money, I would have done it months ago.

I honestly think that just subtle improvements could make a big diference.
Reply #202 Top

It seems that the point intended has branched out to a few irrelevant issues.
The way I have followed Brad's original post is.

1- The site is going thru a tough time because not enough monetary contribution is being made.

2- Those that have already made the contributions have done their share and are not required or obligated to make additional purchase of subscriptions (unless they choose to purchase extra subscriptions as gift for family members/friends)

3- Nobody is obligating anyone to make any purchase. If a person does not have the money to purchase a subscription, simply don’t purchase it. If a person has funds and is willing to help by purchasing a subscription, then by all means do it.

4- The post was intended to serve as a notification of how and where the site stands and to encourage those that visit and are non-subscribers to help out by purchasing a subscription IF and ONLY IF they have the funds to do it.

5- Giving the circumstances and in the worst case scenario, the site will have to seek ways to stay afloat, therefore the options of charging for some things that up to now have been free will seriously be taken under consideration.

I like the way the site is right now and I wouldn’t like to see it morph into the options given by Brad, so I've made my contribution.
For $20 I get more satisfaction from uploading and downloading the wonderful designs of my fellow artist than I get from a lot of things on which I expend far more than $20
So, if you have $20 to spare make the contribution, if you don’t have $20, then try to help out to keep everything as is.

Exactly. I feel the same way too.

Reply #203 Top
Well Brad since my foot is already in my mouth I have nothing to say to you.

I know you are trying to help me see the big problem but you could be a little more supportive and try to help people out.

Paypal is the answer. I would give lots of money from my ebay sells if we could use paypal here.

I already got yelled at lots for that statement already, among others. Tonight is not a good night for kona.
Reply #204 Top

Kona, I think you should see a doctor about your contradiction affliction.

Sometimes I can't believe you're an adult. I wouldn't even give you 12 years of age.
Anyway, I'm growing tired of you, as a few people here do as well, I'm sure. Why don't you just move all your opinion postings to the ThemeXP website. I'm sure they'd love to hear it. They have forums there too you know.

Indeed. And it gets several posts every week.

Reply #205 Top
Kona: I agree, PayPal support would help.
Reply #206 Top

Needless to say, Brad [Frogboy] covered it all quite admirably. [afterall he should know...he pays the bills and probably has an accountant/bank manager frowning at him]....

It's fairly safe to say that the very existence of Wincustomize.com is allowing the other smaller sites to survive as public 'demand' for skins would mean a dramatic increase of load put on those sites were Wincustomize not fielding the majority of the traffic.

What that means realistically is that those who help support Wincustomize's survival are single-handedly supporting the entire on-line skinning community....from the oldest...[Customize.org and Skinz.org] to the newest....[ThemeXP.org, I think].

Sure we don't host many of the 'smaller' skinnable proggies, but that in turn means these other sites can deal with their load as the pressure from the others is off them......another reason why a Proggy's popularity is a determining factor in hosting choice here.

I'm sure there will be a fair degree of discussion/consultation about viable alternatives to Site affordability over the next few months or so.  Nothing's ever etched in stone, except the reality of 'this joint costs heaps'...

 

On another issue....please refrain from variations of the theme of personal attack.  Ultimately it does no-one no good...

Reply #207 Top
/me thinks Brad reads a post & responds then reads the next one & responds etc etc
Reply #208 Top
Kona: I agree, PayPal support would help.


I am in support of having PayPal here also



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Reply #209 Top
back to topic, I think we need to find two very skilled bank robbers and make some money. Then all will be good...except when they catch the two. I will deny ever knowing them.
Reply #210 Top
or one wealthy user who thinks this site deserves a break...thatd be abt the best net xmas present i could think of ...
Reply #211 Top
Look! there is 20 more days in this month. 215 subs sold! I think the drive is doing pretty damn good!
Reply #212 Top

Now the thread is back on topic...and will stay that way, thankyou...

Side conversations can find a thread of their own.

This subject is important and should be treated as such.  It affects each and everyone of you/us that interacts with this site, [and any other skinning site for that matter]...

Reply #213 Top
So what happens if we fall a little short? Like 470 or a bit above that?
Reply #215 Top
The DJ....it'll probably mean some degree of 'change' will be needed.....we'll have to wait and see....
Reply #216 Top
I don't know if this would seem deceptive, but what about having the ads say: "Subscribe to WinCustomize for only 84 cents a month!*" Although people will eventually learn that they have to buy 2 year subscriptions, that might put it into perspective on how inexpensive it is.



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Reply #217 Top
/me puts on her bauble just for the occasion.

I wish I could do or say more, but I think everything has been covered pretty well. I just wanted to say thanks for building this place and keeping it going. I know you guys take a lot of flack from some pretty rude people. Still, you manage to be a warm, supportive bunch of people. I hope that things continue pretty much as they have, but I, for one, will not be looking for some other site if things do change. This is MY COMMUNITY after all. A community isn't some thing, like an umbrella, that someone puts up and takes shelter from when it is convenient. Without all the little people making up parts of it, there would be no community. And this little person plans to stand strong here, do what I can to make things work -- shore up my little corner as needed. You guys are my friends, after all, and that's what friends do.

I don't really need or want another umbrella anyway.


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Reply #218 Top
I don't know if this would seem deceptive, but what about having the ads say: "Subscribe to WinCustomize for only 84 cents a month!*"


Deceptive? Not really...Theres no hidden charges/unexpected rate increases... It sounds like a good idea to me...
Reply #219 Top
Yeah. It's not like a 9.99$ itemj with 50$ S&H charge.
Reply #220 Top
I remember seeing at Customize.org their stats for the most ever members logged on....I think it was 121 [something like that]....currently as I type we have 888 and that's just a typical, not a max...


I just thought I would hilight that fact.

We keep comparing other sites without some details like that and you'll end up thinking, "why is wincusto so needy?"



Lets put this one way:
When Wincusto shut down for that week and sent people to other sites it literally shut down other sites.

Including the said Customize.org
Reply #221 Top
Point being, you start charging for things here and I PROMISE this site will fail. I myself will not pay for skins when I can find them elsewhere for free. Maybe that is why I do not download them here.


the question could also be that there will be no site with the amount of skins or quality anywhere.

SkinIt.net
SkinEdge
Customize.org
SkinBase
Deskmod

all had or have problems and or running on life support or not at all.

So finding these skins might not be so easy. the volume will have to be smaller because the other sites will not be able to handle the traffic.
Reply #222 Top
I agree with EventHorizon...nothing deceptive there. 84 cents is quite a bargain for what is offered here. I plan on renewing my subscription for as long as this site is here. And I don't see anything wrong with having a donate to this site link either. I mean really...if these guys are forking out 10,000 in operating costs or at least trying to...84cents a month is nothing.
Reply #223 Top
Question. I just logged out and tried to download skins and was able to? I understand that users who are logged in are capped, but what about anonymous visitors? Are they allowed to download as much as they like? As I said in the past during wallpaper discussions, the Great Maw that is the anonymous downloader is the real problem. They'll bleed you dry, piss on your porch and move on to other things when you fail. Am I correct that you can download without being logged in? If so, couldn't that hole be plugged?


Anyway,

There was a discussion once about the wallpaper section wherein someone suggested that it be 'let go' because of the amount of site traffic. At that time the retort was that the wallpapers, and the rest of the non-stardock sections for that matter, were a drop in the bucket and that it really wouldn't help to get rid of them.

Has the overall popularity ratio of the sections changed? It's been mentioned that if Stardock has to swallow the loss for the new servers that there might not be as much obligation to host non-stardock apps? Forgive me if it seems off topic, but the topic is 'community', and if the small community apps aren't a significant amount of traffic, I'm not sure what benefit there would be to the community in removing them.

No offense intended.


**

P.S. The check is in the mail. Really, it is. It's Christmas, though, had it been a few months before or after I could have done something more substantial than a single membership. Would there be room for us to donate talent in the form of skins and themes? Perhaps the site requires something more robust than just exclusive themes for subscribers. Per-download skin and theme sales would be warez hell, but I'm not sure the system now will ever balance the Great Maw.

Reply #224 Top
I brought up a question about a year ago as to how I would go about buying a subscription for someone else and did not receive any constructive responses...so I didn't pursue it further. I would have purchased at least 5 of them for friends during the last year. I'll ask again, how would I go about it?




funny you should mention that! To me, there are to many steps just to buy a skin for your friend.

I guess I could just get a CD and send it to them, but then there is the whole Wincusto account thing.

:NOTSURE:

Reply #225 Top
Great plan Frogboy, now lets get some stuff online to get the journeyman level