Leo.....removing a section is a pretty severe step....perhaps even disrespectful....to those who may have contributed to those sections....so is not really a viable option.

Beatnik, for example is such a simple little proggy that it makes an ideal starting point for the 'noob' who wants to be able to say he has 'skinned something'....and is a good launching place for more adventurous endeavours...so its place can be justified.  [it's one proggy I've never skinned].

Trillian is a good example [or one's ignorance of it is] of how a perception of a skin proggy's popularity can be insular or even myopic, and shows that one's arguments relating to popularity or significance may be flawed.

BTW....it's a multi-format skinnable Instant Messenger.....handles ICQ, IRC, IM, etc....not, as is the case with ICQ...ONLY ICQ, hence its rise to prominence...

Beatnik, for example is such a simple little proggy that it makes an ideal starting point for the 'noob' who wants to be able to say he has 'skinned something'....and is a good launching place for more adventurous endeavours...so its place can be justified. [it's one proggy I've never skinned].

How is Rainlender ANY different?

I am enjoying "trying" to skin rainy and sysmetrix right now.

But Leo, although I support your argument, and even though in so many words I find Brads posts a little rough, he is right.

Maybe we should do a poll based on rainy?

Anyways, in any event, simply put, IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN anyton.

Beatnik is already here....Rainlendar isn't....yet....

anyton.

any time soon... sorry!

Question: Would it be alright to upload Rainlendar skins to the Graphic section? Since it's rarely used.

Question: Would it be alright to upload Rainlendar skins to the Graphic section? Since it's rarely used.

That wouldn't be a good idea. Otherwise the graphics section would end up being a catchall for the hundreds of skinnable progrmas that we don't have sections for.

Regarding Beatnik -- Beatnik, at the time it got a section, was immensely popular. It's not very popular now. But we don't remove sections once they exist. Skin authors trust us to take care of their work once it is here.

There is no "bias" against Rainlendar. We simply don't believe it is very popular yet. No one has made a case of how having a Rainlendar section would be good for WinCustomize.

Leo.....removing a section is a pretty severe step....perhaps even disrespectful....to those who may have contributed to those sections....so is not really a viable option

So we appease a very small number skinners and users to the detriment of the feelings of many people within the community??? That does not make sense nor does it hold water. So why not archive the stuff or do something with it so people can still access it. Sorry Jafo don't buy it.

Beatnik, for example is such a simple little proggy that it makes an ideal starting point for the 'noob' who wants to be able to say he has 'skinned something'....and is a good launching place for more adventurous endeavours...so its place can be justified. [it's one proggy I've never skinned].

Well that is exactly what Rainlendar is and would make a far popular choice for both noobs and established skinners alike

Trillian is a good example [or one's ignorance of it is] of how a perception of a skin proggy's popularity can be insular or even myopic, and shows that one's arguments relating to popularity or significance may be flawed.

Nice and clever choice of words. I admire your tact. OK so put it to the test and lets see what the membership of this site want. Start a thread on Trillian and see if it gets the same support as Rainlendar. Then we will see who has the right perception

But Leo, although I support your argument, and even though in so many words I find Brads posts a little rough, he is right.

Kona.....How is he right???......From where i stand all Brad has done is given a "knee jerk" reaction and then launched into the defence of his products.

That wouldn't be a good idea. Otherwise the graphics section would end up being a catchall for the hundreds of skinnable progrmas that we don't have sections for.

What a surprise !!!!! NOT

Regarding Beatnik -- Beatnik, at the time it got a section, was immensely popular. It's not very popular now. But we don't remove sections once they exist. Skin authors trust us to take care of their work once it is here.

See my reply to Jafo's point

There is no "bias" against Rainlendar. We simply don't believe it is very popular yet. No one has made a case of how having a Rainlendar section would be good for WinCustomize.

OK i will spell it out to you...........as Arnie said " I'll be back"

just realize this is not as much a "community site" as other sites. rather a Stardock customer service (there are no skins at stardock.com after all). this is not evil, nor does it make the site operators bad guys. see it from this perspective and you´ll realize there is no point in getting upset

and for heavens sake, does it really hurt so much to go to deviantArt or Skinbase to look for Rainlendar skins? at Skinbase you can even find skins for Rainmeter, Rainy´s other little app. you might like it.
[Message Edited]

moshi.......i am not upset........you would know it if something had really upset me....i just feel like many others do that a small yes small change is required to keep up with the flow. I love this place and have defended and sung the praises of Wincustomize and Stardock in many debates in the past and converted many people both via personal contact and message boards to come over to Object Desktop and use Wincustomize. However there are times when even the best need a little "shove" to remind them why they are so good.
I believe this is a community site but i am not so nieve to think that Stardock does not have a helluva influence on what goes on. They just need to look at the wider perspective, listen and perhaps look at whats going on in the ***whole*** skinning world and meet those challenges.

Never mind, YOU CAN ALL UPLOAD YOUR RAINY'S SKINS THERE : [email protected]

Philippe.........but you will need a very big hard drive

Leo....re #133....it is a hell of a lot more important to respect and protect existing skins and their owners on this site than to suggest that we shove them aside with scant regard to appease a new vocal 'minority'.

When a new section is added it won't be at the expense of losing an existing one.  It will simply be done as and when priorities allow.

It's important to be aware that if you add up EVERYONE who has ever posted a comment on this board, irrespective of preferences for or against something such as Rainlendar...this total is a tiny percentage of Wincustomize's User Base.

A poll can be 'fun' but sociology will tell you that it is never founded in reality, at least never accurate.  Wording/slanting can control an outcome.  Topicality can engender prejudice...

Re post #135.....'tact' is right....ya gotta have 'tact'....comes with the job description....  As I recall, Trillian has already been polled and came out as the popular choice...

Re post #136....Frogboy doesn't need to 'defend his products'....they haven't done anything wrong....

Leo....perhaps a little history lesson is in order....for a relatively new member apparently hell-bent on convincing the world to dance to a different tune.  Before Wincustomize.com began, many skinners here had a history together on a site called skinz.org.....and on several others, some still present, some now absent.  Awareness of skinning and its 'mechanics of industry/community/empire' have been experienced for many years, seeing many skins, skinners, and proggies come and go, for all sorts of reasons...and every site you can name has 'gone down' at one time or another...through all sorts of reasons....some of them simply through poor management and/or poor business model.

One of the 'ideals' of Wincustomize.com was it was to be a 'stable', reliable site to help guarantee the 'art-form's' existence/survival.

Nothing that is done, or decided to/for this site is done lightly, but [in spite of Moshi's opinion... ] is anguished over on a communal level, be it by inoccuous threads such as this one....or by comments bounced around between the 'senior' members of the site.  None of us is deaf, you know.....we do listen...

Leo....re #133....it is a hell of a lot more important to respect and protect existing skins and their owners on this site than to suggest that we shove them aside with scant regard to appease a new vocal 'minority'.

Did I say that......No.....Did I suggest that.....No......Did i imply that......NO i did not. My suggestion was to place them in an archive which is hardly disrespectful and furthermore it would maintain protection on the work and you could still allow access. Shall we say put gently to rest but treated with the respect and reverence they deserve. I am sounding like your local Padre now !!!!!

When a new section is added it won't be at the expense of losing an existing one. It will simply be done as and when priorities allow.

Fair enough, guvnor.

It's important to be aware that if you add up EVERYONE who has ever posted a comment on this board, irrespective of preferences for or against something such as Rainlendar...this total is a tiny percentage of Wincustomize's User Base.

I agree. The important thing is that people who wanted to voice an opinion have had their opportunity regardless of the outcome. We hoped to show the people that run Wincustomize that it would be a worthwhile venture in adding an new section for Rainlendar. It would appear we have failed and i/we will have to accept that.

I have to nip out now and i will debate your other points shortly
[Message Edited]

A poll can be 'fun' but sociology will tell you that it is never founded in reality, at least never accurate. Wording/slanting can control an outcome. Topicality can engender prejudice...

Totally agree. Hence why i did not put much emphasis on this aspect during our discussions. By the way i have tried to do a statistical analysis but as usual these can be manipulated in whichever direction you want them to show so i am going to avoid that route as that will not achieve anything.

Re post #135.....'tact' is right....ya gotta have 'tact'....comes with the job description.... As I recall, Trillian has already been polled and came out as the popular choice...

Tact.......And you got tons of it..........Ever fancied a proper job in PR - you are made for it. On the Trillian point i have checked out the home site and other aspects and i have to concede that both you and Brad are right. Trillian would appear to be "popular" and my guess is its going to get more popular.

Leo goes off to the kitchen to eat some "humble pie" Back soon.

Re post #136....Frogboy doesn't need to 'defend his products'....they haven't done anything wrong....

Leo....perhaps a little history lesson is in order....for a relatively new member apparently hell-bent on convincing the world to dance to a different tune

hell-bent on convincing the world to dance to a different a different tune???????? Don't think i really deserved that, do you Jafo.
All i asked for is consideration of a Rainlendar section and gave my reasons during the thread why i thought it was a good idea.
Your history lesson is well received and thank you for the insight. I am sure the site will go from strength to strength as a result.

All i asked for is consideration of a Rainlendar section and gave my reasons during the thread why i thought it was a good idea.

And watched as biased people shot his ideas full of holes.

Nothing that is done, or decided to/for this site is done lightly, but [in spite of Moshi's opinion... ] is anguished over on a communal level, be it by inoccuous threads such as this one....or by comments bounced around between the 'senior' members of the site. None of us is deaf, you know.....we do listen...

I am sure you are right but Brads imput made this hard to believe. I bet he has been under a lot of pressure recently with the new servers, server problems and DX2 making more ground and the last thing he wanted was some individual like me whinging about Rainlendar.

Finally, i have never entered into the DX2/Rainlendar side of this debate as i could see that this might cause trouble which was not my intention. For the record i have used DX2 and i like it and believe it has a great future but i really love complete matching suites of every prog on my Desktop and at the moment this is few and far between in DX2.
Its still early days for DX2 but i am sure Brad is on the right track even if it means pulling some of us kicking and screaming with him.

I still firmly believe that Rainlendar has a place within our community now and i would have liked to have seen it here even as a compromise with it being included together in the Sysmetrix section and renamed as such but i now accept that is unlikely to happen.

It is now time to move on and get on with something more constructive like my first Windowblinds skin. I have been playing with the idea and some of the aspects for the blind for some time and if its all feasible then it might just blow your minds. I still have got a long way to go and with a young family,a change of job in the new year and a move to the USA i have got my hands full. I am a padantic son of a bitch and Chad Ross's comments to me the other day was "Leo you are one of those people that likes their magazines placed slap bang in the middle of the coffee table, are'nt you".
Guess he's right.

Suffice to say that i have said enough on this thread/subject matter and it is now closed as far as i am concerned but i will happily respond to any comments placed on the thread as a matter of courtesy.

KG/Brad/Jafo - Ma'am/Boss/Guvnor - thank you for your patience.

Damn my manners.........nearly forgot......KG, Ma'am these are for you

#136 by Leo the Lion - 10/1/2003 1:20:16 AM Kona.....How is he right???......From where i stand all Brad has done is given a "knee jerk" reaction and then launched into the defence of his products.

Brad never gives a "knee jerk" reaction.  You don't grow a successful company by doing so.  If you think that *all* the skinning programs aren't discussed on a regular basis, then you are wrong.  Skinning is our business.  We watch the trends quite closely.  We are not biased (as people keep saying) we simply do not see proof that it needs to be a section here.  It's that simple.  If it becomes extremely popular (ie: download counts grow dramatically at other sites) we'll discuss it.  Trillian is very popular (I know many people personally that use it all day long) but even it hasn't been added yet.